Traffic violation rental car Germany

almostover

Hopefully someone has made similar experience in the past and can point me in the right direction on this. Got an email today from enterprise rent a car saying they're charging me €20 for passing my details to a Germany council because the council wish to issue me a traffic violation fine. There is no mention of what the fine is for but there is a reference number but I can't see where I can use the reference number. The email has my home address on it. The traffic violation occurred when I rented a car for a work trip in Germany on the 5th of June. One issue is there were 2 work colleagues on the trip and we shared the driving burden between us but I made the car hire booking. So there will be some fun trying to determine who was driving at the time of the incident.....

Seeing as it's 7 weeks after this even happened should I be expecting a fine in the post? If so, what is the best course of action around payment? Presume the German police can't issue points to an Irish driving licence?

CiniO

You will receive fine in the post with all instruction how to pay it.
Also very likely there will be a picture of the driver, so should be easy enough for you to determine who was driving.
And no, you won't get Irish penalty points. You might get German ones though - not sure about that.

almostover

CiniO wrote: »

You will receive fine in the post with all instruction how to pay it.
Also very likely there will be a picture of the driver, so should be easy enough for you to determine who was driving.
And no, you won't get Irish penalty points. You might get German ones though - not sure about that.

Fair enough. It seems Germanic effeciency will ensure I receive the fine by post in a timely manner. What is the implication of getting German points?

Turner

Just because you receive a fine does not make you guilty of that offence.

If you wish to ignore the fine and contest the matter in court, it is the responsibility of the German authorities to serve a summons on you to attend your court date.

They cannot serve a summons on you in ireland.

Kevin Finnerty

Turner wrote: »

Just because you receive a fine does not make you guilty of that offence.

If you wish to ignore the fine and contest the matter in court, it is the responsibility of the German authorities to serve a summons on you to attend your court date.

They cannot serve a summons on you in ireland.

I went down this route over 10 years ago. I'm sorry I did now as I haven't gone back since.
I'd pay the fine and hire a car under your workmates name next time.

Turner

Why have you not gone back?

Why would you pay the fine?

The german authorities need to present the evidence first and if the o/p is not happy they are entitled to contest the evidence.

almostover

Turner wrote: »

Why have you not gone back?

Why would you pay the fine?

The german authorities need to present the evidence first and if the o/p is not happy they are entitled to contest the evidence.

My only issue is I travel to Germany 4-5 times a year for work and I don't need any unnecessary hassle at passport control......I'll wait on for the letter anyway

endacl

“Lads. Turns out we’ve a fine to pay. No way of telling which one of us was driving, but I’ve been stuck with it because the car was in my name. Sure, we’ll split it three ways. No big deal”

Job done.

Del2005

Turner wrote: »

Why have you not gone back?

Why would you pay the fine?

The german authorities need to present the evidence first and if the o/p is not happy they are entitled to contest the evidence.

Are you an expert on German law? Our courts are completely different to the European system. So saying that it's not the OPs problem is not good advice unless you are an expert on the German judicial system.

Kevin Finnerty

Turner wrote: »

Why have you not gone back?

Why would you pay the fine?

The german authorities need to present the evidence first and if the o/p is not happy they are entitled to contest the evidence.

Back then it was a 3 year lapse on outstanding warranties, jutst never got back thete since. It definitely closed doors for me regarding employment.

Unless OP wants to drive in over the borders and take a chance, I'd say pay it.

almostover

endacl wrote: »

“Lads. Turns out we’ve a fine to pay. No way of telling which one of us was driving, but I’ve been stuck with it because the car was in my name. Sure, we’ll split it three ways. No big deal”

Job done.

If we can't identify the driver from the letter then this is how it's going to be resolved

Kevin Finnerty

almostover wrote: »

If we can't identify the driver from the letter then this is how it's going to be resolved

Even if ye can make out the driver, I'd still split it 3 ways. Might be me, but ye were all insured on it, coulda just as easy been one of the other two. And it was being used for monetary gain. That's imo of course.

judeboy101

Gdpr private company passing your info to a county council without permission

dudara

judeboy101 wrote: »

Gdpr private company passing your info to a county council without permission

Not a valid argument when complying with a legal obligation. Plus probably covered in the Ts&Cs you signed when renting the car.

A few years back I got a fine for speeding on the autobahn. Hertz paid it automatically on my behalf then charged me. I received all documentation in the post. Couldn’t argue.

rivegauche

Covered in rental agreement. They can share the information.
I read it in my rental agreement at the weekend while looking for something else.

If you weren't acting the maggot your fine will be maybe as little as €15 on a landstrasse or €20 on autobahn with no points to be levied.

Fines in Germany are very fairly applied.

Turner

Del2005 wrote: »

Are you an expert on German law? Our courts are completely different to the European system. So saying that it's not the OPs problem is not good advice unless you are an expert on the German judicial system.

The german system operates in the same way as ours, you are innocent until proven guilty.

I wouldnt be paying any fine until i saw some evidence.

And at that you are always entitled to contest the evidence

ohnonotgmail

Turner wrote: »

The german system operates in the same way as ours, you are innocent until proven guilty.

I wouldnt be paying any fine until i saw some evidence.

And at that you are always entitled to contest the evidence

which would involve turning in court. if you dont turn up they will come to a verdict based on the information they have.

rivegauche

German law is a version of Civil Law, UK and Irish law is based on Common law.
The concept behind the legal systems are different.
If you wish to challenge the speeding fine they you are welcome to return to Germany with a Rechtsanwalt and let them try to get it overturned. Rechtsanwalten will not be willing to represent you as Judges in Germany don't permit the type of carryon that you would normally witness in an Irish courtroom by stroppy Barristers.

The speed measuring device you were caught by was either a fixed camera and you really should remember a flashlight going off as you passed by or else it was a set of calibrated measuring devices on tripods with a road traffic law enforcement officer in attendance who will be able to confirm that your rental car was observed exceeding the speed limit by the equipment he was operating.

Speeding camera fines are called expensive self-portraits in Germany because you receive a picture of yourself in a couple of weeks with a bill to pay.

CiniO

Turner wrote: »

The german system operates in the same way as ours, you are innocent until proven guilty.

But that's actually not true. Not entirely anyway.
Because while you're correct about German system where you're innocent until proven guilty, but in Ireland it doesn't operate that way.
In Ireland vehicle registered owner is assumed to have driven the vehicle during incident and it's up to him/her to prove they weren't.

So in Germany in short if your car is caught speeding then authorities must provide a proof that it was you, while in Ireland if your car is caught speeding and it wasn't you, then you must provide proof that you weren't driving at that time, as otherwise your automatically deemed guilty.

I wouldnt be paying any fine until i saw some evidence.

And at that you are always entitled to contest the evidence

But op will get evidence. It will be a reading from calibrated speed detection device and picture of the car and picture of the driver.

Wildcard7

almostover wrote: »

Hopefully someone has made similar experience in the past and can point me in the right direction on this. Got an email today from enterprise rent a car saying they're charging me €20 for passing my details to a Germany council because the council wish to issue me a traffic violation fine. There is no mention of what the fine is for but there is a reference number but I can't see where I can use the reference number. The email has my home address on it. The traffic violation occurred when I rented a car for a work trip in Germany on the 5th of June. One issue is there were 2 work colleagues on the trip and we shared the driving burden between us but I made the car hire booking. So there will be some fun trying to determine who was driving at the time of the incident.....

Seeing as it's 7 weeks after this even happened should I be expecting a fine in the post? If so, what is the best course of action around payment? Presume the German police can't issue points to an Irish driving licence?

Something similar happened to me. I was in Switzerland where I rented a car, drove over to Germany and got caught going a little (<10) over the speed limit. I didn't even notice it at the time. A few weeks later I got a bill from the rental company (I think it was 40 or 50 Euro) for passing my details on, and a little later I got the fine (which was <= 20 Euro). The fine also included a picture where it was clearly visible that I was driving.


If I were you I'd just wait. Either split the bill (rental company + fine) 3ways, or if you find out who it was pass it on to them.

almostover

This has all been resolved with Germanic efficiency! Got the fine letter this week and paid it online - very simple system. Was doing 119 km/h in a 100 zone so only a €30 fine. Image captured by the speed camera was of high quality so the perpetrator had no defense. It was one of my colleagues, we had a good laugh about it and he reimbursed me. I could have chosen to ignore the fine but as I'm travelling to Germany again next week, €30 of someone else's money is a small price to pay to avoid any unnecessary hassle.

redcup342

dudara wrote: »

Not a valid argument when complying with a legal obligation. Plus probably covered in the Ts&Cs you signed when renting the car.

A few years back I got a fine for speeding on the autobahn. Hertz paid it automatically on my behalf then charged me. I received all documentation in the post. Couldn’t argue.

That's illegal in Germany, a rental company should never do that as they are admitting guilt on your behalf with no chance to defend yourself.

If you are accused of an offense you must be notified first of committing the offence, then you have 2 weeks to object.

If you do not respond then you will receive details of the offence with the amount of the fine which will include a picture of the driver, the date and time of the offence and the offence that was committed.

If any points are due they will be logged against your license number in Flensburg and will apply when you are driving in Germany.

If you do not pay and it does go to court you will receive a summons via a Transmitting agency (Council Regulation (EC) 1393/2007) to a court sitting in whichever city issued the ticket.

You'll probably get it in English and German, you'll also get a chance to respond and request it in a language you understand.

If you ignore that then they will make a judgement on your behalf, if it was an extremely dangerous act then they may issue a warrant for your arrest.

I know of one person in the UK that this happened to, they broke a red light camera outside Dusseldorf, ignored everything and were arrested one week when they arrived at passport control in Cologne Bonn airport.

If it's for a small ticket though, like the OPs, then they local city probably won't pursue it, many people here will just chance it and in the majority of cases the City doesn't follow it up at all.

I however pay any tickets don't like having a potential legal headache hanging over my head especially when I have difficulty reading German legalese

mikeecho

I rented with Hertz, when I was in Germany this year, and on day 1, I was flashed (infrared) by a Poliscan


And on the last day I was flashed by a red light camera, .. not sure if anything happened during the week, I think not.

But... that's been a few months ago, and I've heard nothing from either zie authorities, or Hertz.

Lucky me

grogi

judeboy101 wrote: »

Gdpr private company passing your info to a county council without permission

Only one comment here: lol...

grogi

redcup342 wrote: »

That's illegal in Germany, a rental company should never do that as they are admitting guilt on your behalf with no chance to defend yourself.

Nobody can admit guilt on behalf of someone else. Company only releases the information of who was in control of the vehicle at the time.

If you are accused of an offense you must be notified first of committing the offence, then you have 2 weeks to object.

That's what will happen next.

mikeecho

grogi wrote: »

Nobody can admit guilt on behalf of someone else. Company only releases the information of who was in control of the vehicle at the time.



That's what will happen next.

Wait and see if the German authorities contact you.


If they do write to you,cross that bridge. If they dont write to you.. good and well.

grogi

mikeecho wrote: »

Wait and see if the German authorities contact you.


If they do write to you,cross that bridge. If they dont write to you.. good and well.

Why would they do that?!

mikeecho

grogi wrote: »

Why would they do that?!

Why not..


wait and see what happens.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

But that's actually not true. Not entirely anyway.
Because while you're correct about German system where you're innocent until proven guilty, but in Ireland it doesn't operate that way.
In Ireland vehicle registered owner is assumed to have driven the vehicle during incident and it's up to him/her to prove they weren't.

So in Germany in short if your car is caught speeding then authorities must provide a proof that it was you, while in Ireland if your car is caught speeding and it wasn't you, then you must provide proof that you weren't driving at that time, as otherwise your automatically deemed guilty.

Not true, there is a statutory presumption you were the driver, but the presumption only arises when you don't nominate another driver. You automatically rebut any presumption by nominating another driver, but you don't have to prove it though, and failure to nominate another driver does not mean automatic prosecution, you can then rebut on the balance of probability.

All motoring offences covered under the Cross-Border enforcement directive will have a nominate a different driver option from all EU states similar to what Ireland has.

CiniO

GM228 wrote: »

Not true, there is a statutory presumption you were the driver, but the presumption only arises when you don't nominate another driver. You automatically rebut any presumption by nominating another driver, but you don't have to prove it though, and failure to nominate another driver does not mean automatic prosecution, you can then rebut on the balance of probability.

Hmm.

RSA say this:

Where an offence is detected by camera, the fixed-charge notice will be sent to the registered owner. The Road Traffic Act provides that unless another person is identified as the driver it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle at the time of the occurrence of the alleged offence.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/


They say that "unless another person is identified as the driver it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle".

Does simply giving another person't name identify him as a driver?

grogi

CiniO wrote: »

Hmm.

RSA say this:

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/


They say that "unless another person is identified as the driver it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle".

Does simply giving another person't name identify him as a driver?

How many times should it be pointed out that RSA site tells rubbish?

fxotoole

Turner wrote: »

Just because you receive a fine does not make you guilty of that offence.

If you wish to ignore the fine and contest the matter in court, it is the responsibility of the German authorities to serve a summons on you to attend your court date.

They cannot serve a summons on you in ireland.

And what happens the next time the OP arrives in Germany on a work trip, and is arrested on foot of a warrant for his arrest?

CiniO

grogi wrote: »

How many times should it be pointed out that RSA site tells rubbish?

True... true...
I was probably one of the first ones to say that here long time ago


I found this, unfortunately can't find from which act/regulation it's coming from:

(11) Where, in a case to which subsection (2)(b) of this section applies, the registered
owner of the mechanically propelled vehicle concerned does not furnish in
accordance with subsection (4) of this section the information specified in
paragraph (i) of that subsection, then, in a prosecution of that owner for the
alleged offence to which the notice under the said subsection (2)(b) relates,
it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown that he or she was driving
or otherwise using the vehicle at the time of the commission of the said
alleged offence.

Now - how should we understand : "until contrary is shown" ?

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

Hmm.

RSA say this:

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/


They say that "unless another person is identified as the driver it will be assumed that the registered owner was driving the vehicle".

Does simply giving another person't name identify him as a driver?

Forget what the RSA says, you know my expertise when it comes to these matters, there is a great High Court Judicial Review from 4 or 5 years ago which clarifies the issue, I'll dig it out. Once you nominate someone a prosecution can not be initiated against you.

mdebets

Turner wrote: »

If you wish to ignore the fine and contest the matter in court, it is the responsibility of the German authorities to serve a summons on you to attend your court date.

That's not quite true. If you ignore a fine in Germany, it is automatically (after two weeks) deemed that you accept the fine and don't want to contest it in court.

GM228

mdebets wrote: »

That's not quite true. If you ignore a fine in Germany, it is automatically (after two weeks) deemed that you accept the fine and don't want to contest it in court.

There are different rules for non-residents under the EU wide Cross-Border Enforcement Directive which is now in force in all EU states.

flatty

endacl wrote: »

“Lads. Turns out we’ve a fine to pay. No way of telling which one of us was driving, but I’ve been stuck with it because the car was in my name. Sure, we’ll split it three ways. No big deal”

Job done.

You shouldn't even need to ask the lads. They'll just suggest it. Tell them now what's happened, and that you're waiting for further info.