do you need excellent construction knowledge for a self build?

Pussyhands

Or is it more co-ordinating the contractors that's the hardest thing?

Not near building but thinking in future it might be a nice thought but I'm not in the construction or services industry. I'd know very basic stuff but is it possible to learn this stuff on the side or is it only for construction/services people who generally selfbuild.

landcrzr

Your house is probably the biggest single sum of money you'll ever spend.
A brand new mid range car would probably cost about 10% the cost of your house.
You need to ask yourself, would you take on the coordination and management of the people that put your car together if you've no mechanical expertise?

Pussyhands

landcrzr wrote: »

Your house is probably the biggest single sum of money you'll ever spend.
A brand new mid range car would probably cost about 10% the cost of your house.
You need to ask yourself, would you take on the coordination and management of the people that put your car together if you've no mechanical expertise?

If you knew who knew their stuff though you could manage it.

_Brian

You will be under pressure to make construction decisions and if you have no clue then problems are possible.

Now, you should be able to have your engineer on standby for help with this stuff along with certification, but that may cost too.

K.Flyer

If you are working full time away from home and taking and making lots of phone calls to contractors during work hours would be frowned upon, then maybe its not a good idea.
Also, would you be in a position to drop what you are doing to go to the site to discuss some unexpected issue with a contractor, again, if the answer is no, then it's probably not going to work out for you.
Not saying that you need to be on the phone or on site every day, but if you're needed, you will have to have that flexibility.

Jennehy

Sure everyone now a days is an expert with the google and you tube. All Kevin Mclouds so they are.

Gumbo

Pussyhands wrote: »

If you knew who knew their stuff though you could manage it.

But if you know nothing at all, how do you know that the shines thing they are putting in that position will Last 10 years or 10 months?

badtoro

This is an issue we've literally just discussed over the phone minutes ago. We've 0 experience in construction and my concern is that I, as herself will be working over an hour away, will be the one on site presumably having the final say on decisions I know nothing about. Our engineer also is an hour away. Well and good having a plan but if I don't know what the right and wrong decision is then that's putting 100% faith into the trades people.

Her argument is the build will cost at least +30% getting a contractor in, who ultimately we will be putting 100% faith into.

Pussyhands

kceire wrote: »

But if you know nothing at all, how do you know that the shines thing they are putting in that position will Last 10 years or 10 months?

In OP I said I was years away from building and if it was possible to learn enough on the side without directly being involved in the services industry through work etc.

Gumbo

Pussyhands wrote: »

In OP I said I was years away from building and if it was possible to learn enough on the side without directly being involved in the services industry through work etc.

I’m 20 years directly in the game and I would still rely on others for their specialist knowledge on particular items.

I don’t think you could learn enough on the side in my opinion.

Pussyhands

kceire wrote: »

I’m 20 years directly in the game and I would still rely on others for their specialist knowledge on particular items.

I don’t think you could learn enough on the side in my opinion.

But I know many lads who are not huuuuugely involved in services on a day to day basis yet are doing self builds.

mickdw

Everybody self builds here, knowledge or no knowledge.
You need some spare time firstly in my opinion. Whether it be keeping the place tidy or chasing materials or trades, it will take a lot of time.
You then need a professional who is actually properly involved in the project. There are too many signing paperwork with little involvement in design etc.
So if you can get a good engineer preferably local to you, good trades who come recommended and if you have a good few hours per week to input, I don't see any problem.

Ak84

I read an.article in a passive house magazine about some lad who had no building experience but who self managed and did a lot of the work himself on his new home. It turned out even better than he expected with regard to energy ratings and the like. I think he pretty much built a passive house. He put the effort in and learned all he could, and then was meticulous in what he did to the house. I think this was in Cork.
Point being, anything is possible.

Gumbo

Pussyhands wrote: »

But I know many lads who are not huuuuugely involved in services on a day to day basis yet are doing self builds.

Get advice from them. Ask them what they did wrong or what they would do differently.

Just to be clear, are you talking about day to day running or just not engaging a main contractor so that you organise the trades etc

I’m assuming you’ll still have an engineer/arch/surveyor inspecting and certifying?

Pussyhands

kceire wrote: »

Get advice from them. Ask them what they did wrong or what they would do differently.

Just to be clear, are you talking about day to day running or just not engaging a main contractor so that you organise the trades etc

I’m assuming you’ll still have an engineer/arch/surveyor inspecting and certifying?

Yeah I'm talking about the co-ordination.

Learning the steps required in building a house and then co-ordinating and organising that myself. being the PM essentially.

Gumbo

One of the biggest problems with this is knowing when to have each trade there and when you the 2 or 3 trades together. You need the plumber and sparks to carry out separate works but you need them both together to sort out heating controls, motorized valves etc

Then you have the tiler and the plumber, and where pipes have to be left and when one trade carries on from another and something is wrong. One trade will say that’s where it was when I got here so I carried on. The other trade will say I left it there for the other guy to place where he wanted it to go.

Calahonda52

kceire wrote: »

I’m 20 years directly in the game and I would still rely on others for their specialist knowledge on particular items.

I don’t think you could learn enough on the side in my opinion.

I am 43 years in the business and am still stunned at my level of ignorance :D

Metric Tensor

kceire wrote: »

One of the biggest problems with this is knowing when to have each trade there and when you the 2 or 3 trades together. You need the plumber and sparks to carry out separate works but you need them both together to sort out heating controls, motorized valves etc

Then you have the tiler and the plumber, and where pipes have to be left and when one trade carries on from another and something is wrong. One trade will say that’s where it was when I got here so I carried on. The other trade will say I left it there for the other guy to place where he wanted it to go.

And don't forget the air tightness guy and every stitch of his work being completely undone by drill/stanley knife happy follow on trades!

I did an extension recently (not the same, I know) and the main chap that was working on it (the builder) was a small 2-man outfit, and he gave me a heads up on when I'd need each trade, gave recommendations, etc. so if you can get someone like that, that will work with you on it, you'll be laughing.

I'd imagine once there are a set of plans that's the hardest part done?

Gumbo

Deleted User wrote: »

I did an extension recently (not the same, I know) and the main chap that was working on it (the builder) was a small 2-man outfit, and he gave me a heads up on when I'd need each trade, gave recommendations, etc. so if you can get someone like that, that will work with you on it, you'll be laughing.

I'd imagine once there are a set of plans that's the hardest part done?

Decent quality construction plans help and go al long way. But you still need somebody that can relate what’s on paper to what’s on site and spot any short cuts or variations.

sydthebeat

SAS did a great thread on this forum previously.

Anyone thinking of taking this on should read it, especially the 'afterwards' bit

ht9zni1gs28crp

badtoro wrote: »

Her argument is the build will cost at least +30% getting a contractor in, who ultimately we will be putting 100% faith into.

Does the 30% savings on the Mortgage equal either one of your Salaries? If it does or greater then why not take leave and be on site 12hours a day your self.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I am 43 years in the business and am still stunned at my level of ignorance :D

Its crazy how many different items in the construction trade there are. I suppose we all have our own fields of expertise.

Recognising the need for others expertise is probably the better skill to have to be fair. :cool:

Calahonda52

Miguel Faint Pest wrote: »

Its crazy how many different items in the construction trade there are. I suppose we all have our own fields of expertise.

Recognising the need for others expertise is probably the better skill to have to be fair. :cool:

Indeed, the lack of integration/responsibilities between trades in a direct labour project is a big problem, especially when using expensive materials

sydthebeat

Calahonda52 wrote: »

I am 43 years in the business and am still stunned at my level of ignorance :D

we live in the age of internet "DIY"... and some people are quite willing to treat the biggest expense in their lives in the same manner.

KeRbDoG

My 2cents after having had a house built and lots of things going wrong is that I would recommend that if someone was going to do the same that they should hire a Project Manager rather then just handing the build to a contractor/builder.
They are usually people who have built their own house, learned the pitfalls the hardway and have then taken this up as a business to be the middle person between a customer and builders/trades for other people wanting to build their house.

They will cost you a percentage or a flat fee but what you should get is independent advice on decision rather than a builder pressuring you to do something as you know no better. Can remove a lot of the bullsh*t a builder will spin you. THey should also know how to coordinate the timing between trades, so this should speed up the build.

Of course, with everything ensure you check their references - visit past clients, ask the pointy questions 'what went wrong' and see the quality etc.

BryanF

KeRbDoG wrote: »

My 2cents after having had a house built and lots of things going wrong is that I would recommend that if someone was going to do the same that they should hire a Project Manager rather then just handing the build to a contractor/builder.
They are usually people who have built their own house, learned the pitfalls the hardway and have then taken this up as a business to be the middle person between a customer and builders/trades for other people wanting to build their house.

They will cost you a percentage or a flat fee but what you should get is independent advice on decision rather than a builder pressuring you to do something as you know no better. Can remove a lot of the bullsh*t a builder will spin you. THey should also know how to coordinate the timing between trades, so this should speed up the build.

Of course, with everything ensure you check their references - visit past clients, ask the pointy questions 'what went wrong' and see the quality etc.

Im intrigued by this route, are there many ‘project managers’ with current / qualified building regulation knowledge and suitable PI insurance to take on a domestic project?

Where does their responsiblitoes start and stop? Does the client pay if they make a mistake as apposed to the main contractor under a regular contract?

Metric Tensor

My experience with people marketing themselves as project managers for self build projects has been predominantly poor. That's not to say there aren't good ones out there but there a plenty of cowboys. As BryanF said - what responsibility or penalty do they face if they are crap at their job?

Also there is NO WAY you will save 30% - anyone who tells you this is either clueless or a bullsh!tter.

the_pen_turner

th problem is that the skills needed to organise it yourself cannont be learned from a book or website. it takes years of experience to know when to schedule trades and to forsee issues before thepy happen.

you also need to know what you are asking trades to quote on. if you ask them the quote for AB and C and other guy to do EF and G. D is forgotten about untill second guy turns up and D isnt done. then the costs start adding on

ht9zni1gs28crp

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Also there is NO WAY you will save 30% - anyone who tells you this is either clueless or a bullsh!tter.

Id argue otherwise, as someone who has self built and hit €68.90/sqFt. I dread to think what a construction company would have charged me for a certified passive build.

Argument is though I knew what I needed, project managed it, designed and detailed it to a very high level. The level of detail I went to ensured it all went to plan, both build and financially.

I would agree though experience will save you this, not any one without a construction life experience and a construction education.

Take any of the regular posters here on Construction Forum yourself, Calahonda, KCEire, BryanF, sydthebeat. I bet they could project manage and deliver near to those savings.

the_pen_turner

Miguel Faint Pest wrote: »

Id argue otherwise, as someone who has self built and hit €68.90/sqFt. I dread to think what a construction company would have charged me for a certified passive build.

Argument is though I knew what I needed, project managed it, designed and detailed it to a very high level. The level of detail I went to ensured it all went to plan, both build and financially.

I would agree though experience will save you this, not any one without a construction life experience and a construction education.

Take any of the regular posters here on Construction Forum yourself, Calahonda, KCEire, BryanF, sydthebeat. I bet they could project manage and deliver near to those savings.

the right kind of person can do it, if they are organised and know what they want and do plenty of reserch before hand .

the average joe knows very little about building a house. most look at books and get ideas and have no understanding of what it takes to achieve it practically or financially.


i have stood in peoples houses waiting for them to decide on the smallest of details. they have to see it loads of diferent ways and then ring a few people to see what they think. then try it this way , then change it .
all that is on the clock and can add up very fast.

personally i wouldnt quote for a self build unless it was very clearly written down what im pricing. doing it on day work is a lot fairer . they can chop and change as much as they like then.

Metric Tensor

Miguel Faint Pest wrote: »

Take any of the regular posters here on Construction Forum yourself, Calahonda, KCEire, BryanF, sydthebeat. I bet they could project manage and deliver near to those savings.

That's nice of you to say and I "might" be able to accomplish it for my own build by leveraging the right contacts, etc. However, I've many years of experience behind me and I'm a construction professional. It wouldn't be right to compare me with the "average" Joe Soap - I wouldn't be able to do his job and no matter how much study he does he won't be able to match my 15+ years of training, experience and contacts!

Joe or Joan Soap could of course pay someone like me to "project manage" their build to achieve the same savings but my hourly/daily rate would be commensurate with my experience and would likely scare off the penny pinchers even if it would result in long term savings. At any rate to employ me to manage the project based on my building experience, contacts, etc. is a large part of what you pay a good contractor to do!


Edited to add: I don't personally offer a project management service - so the above is a bit of a moot point. Might do it for close family - would deliberately avoid for extended family or friends!

Calahonda52

Thanks Millar_63 for your contribution
Comments:
I don't ever get into the duration/timing of trades discussion/changes on the hoof by the client:
neither do I charge a % fee because that mitigates against the client.
I don't sign for deliveries to site or for compliance with standards of materials such as hard core.
I charge for the time I spend on site and my focus is making sure it gets done properly.

B-D-P--

Putting kitchen in this week of a self build.
Had engineer onsite a handfull of times only to sign off to get money.
house is built off my own back, but is built well!

It takes a lot of time if you have a full time job.
Its impossible if your job is not flexible to you.

You need immense self persistence, and don't expect much sleep for 2 years, But I did save well over 40-50k on the quotes I was getting from contractors.

Having said that, If you arent good with your hands, and dont have friends in the trade to help physically and with predetermining problems.
You'll drown.


Finally, If your self building, Build simple and dont design a house with crazy corners and angles.
All of my decisions come down to, What will not cause trouble and is the most robust answer to this.

Its possible, but only some can do it well.

Also be on the lookout for all the cowboys who are back in the trade, theres as many of them out there than good trades at the moment.

ht9zni1gs28crp

B-D-P-- wrote: »

Finally, If your self building, Build simple and dont design a house with crazy corners and angles.
All of my decisions come down to, What will not cause trouble and is the most robust answer to this.

This is a brilliant point and one I cant stress enough to everyone who asks me for advice. How easy is the construction detail, how easy will it be to build, make airtight etc. Sizing of rooms, can the Kitchen accomodate standard unit sizes, is that dormer window really necessary (Pet hate). The knock on effect of dormer windows on construction detailing is enormous, from the airtight detail down to the extra downpipes/draingage. Keep it simple simple simple. It will make your life easier. Best designs are usually the most simple but thoughtfull.

Tefral

I'm self building at the moment. I have excellent construction knowledge being a quantity surveyor and I still second guess myself. It's bloody hard coming home from work going straight to site. I've often left the house at 1am trying to do work. You will dispare sometimes.

If I could give you one massive piece of advice. Get the house designed in such a way that the plan of the rooms and elevations are all divisible by 1200mm x 2400mm every piece of sheet material comes in this size. You will save time but also money on wastage.

Metric Tensor

Tefral wrote: »

If I could give you one massive piece of advice. Get the house designed in such a way that the plan of the rooms and elevations are all divisible by 1200mm x 2400mm every piece of sheet material comes in this size. You will save time but also money on wastage.

Love it Tefral - once you included that paragraph I don't think there was any need to tell people that you're a quantity surveyor! :-D

teddi456

Absolutely, having a solid understanding of construction is crucial for a self-build project. While you may not need to be an expert in every aspect, having a good grasp of fundamental concepts like structural integrity, building codes, material selection, and construction techniques will be immensely beneficial.