Proposed bus route changes

shesty

Has anyone seen the proposed changes to the bus network, that are out for consultation shortly?
For those of us out in the North county, the 33X amd 33 are being axed and replaced with a 285 service that basically equates to the 33A service.It will only serve as a shuttle to Swords, and come every 40-60 mins.
And that's it.
I am actually horrified that we seem to be going backwards here.I completely understand that there are trains, and the population density is not what it is closer to the city.But the plan is to build thousands more houses out here and they are cutting down on public transport options instead of increasing it.It is totally frustrating.The trains are already beyond capacity and the 33X is a heavily used service, surely it should be increased??
I intend to send in a submission on this, and would encourage everyone else to put their views forward too.

Wishbone Ash

Presumably the shuttle service to Swords is mainly aimed at those wishing to continue by Metro North when it's up and running.

plodder

Thanks for posting this as I had missed it. It looks like the Rolestown service (41B) is to be chopped completely. That's how it looks on the map anyway. That's a big step backwards for us - to go from an occasional Dublin bus to none whatsoever.

pinkypinky

Not sure I'm reading it right but it also looks like they're scrapping the 42 and running a bus around Malahide to the DART and over to Swords.

The Donabate/further north services terminate somewhere beside the motorway and then you would change to a Swords bus into town?

I've seen some leaflets in Seabury because they'll lose their service too - it took 20 years of campaign to get the 42 rerouted through Seabury.

On the plus side, the most direct new bus from Swords to town, the A4 seems to skip both River Valley and the airport, so it should have a good time reduction.

LionelNashe

Here's a description of the proposed 285 from the busconnects.ie website:

https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1239/chapter7recommendednetworkplan.pdf

Route 285 from Balbriggan to Swords.

This route would replace existing Routes 33 and 33a. Unlike existing service, Route 285 would operate all day and would terminate in Swords, where passengers could connect to frequent services to the Airport (Route 282, every 10 minutes), or to Dublin (Route A4, every 15 minutes).

Route 285 would operate every 30 minutes in the middle of the day, and every 15 minutes at peak between Skerries and Swords. In addition, half of the buses would start and end in Balbriggan, where frequencies would be every 60 minutes in the middle of the day and every 30 minutes at peak.

Southbound buses would be scheduled to arrive at Rush and Lusk station several minutes before southbound trains between approximately 7:00 and 8:00. Similarly, northbound buses would be scheduled to arrive at Rush and Lusk station several minutes after northbound trains between approximately 17:00 and 18:00.

Victor

The most important point is that your fare will allow you travel for 90 minutes. It's effectively a Leap 90 fare with the second and subsequent fare for free, instead of the current €1 discount. Get on a bus, change to a train, get on another bus in Dublin, all for one fare.

The public consultation and documents are here: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/ This is hte map for the north county: https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1243/map4-proposed-network_dublin_north_outer.pdf

shesty wrote: »

For those of us out in the North county, the 33X amd 33 are being axed and replaced with a 285 service that basically equates to the 33A service.It will only serve as a shuttle to Swords, and come every 40-60 mins.

Swords-Skerries is marked as every 30 minutes and half of the buses would start and end in Balbriggan. There will still be Bus Éireann buses in Balbriggan.

the 33X is a heavily used service, surely it should be increased??

There may be additional peak services.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Presumably the shuttle service to Swords is mainly aimed at those wishing to continue by Metro North when it's up and running.

The idea is that you can change to very frequent services south of Swords.

pinkypinky wrote: »

Not sure I'm reading it right but it also looks like they're scrapping the 42 and running a bus around Malahide to the DART and over to Swords.

The 42 is replaced with the D1, on a slightly different route, which is extended to Crumlin. The 32 and 102 are merged to form the 60. An additional 281 will operate Swords-Portmarnock.

The Donabate/further north services terminate somewhere beside the motorway and then you would change to a Swords bus into town?

I'm not sure where you are getting this. The 280 will operate Portrane-Swords-Clare Hall-Clongriffin.

I've seen some leaflets in Seabury because they'll lose their service too - it took 20 years of campaign to get the 42 rerouted through Seabury.

Seabury will have the 281 and people can transfer to the D1, 60 or DART.

There will be generally better connections to places like Beaumont Hospital.

But do make a submission!

ThunbergsAreGo

Yeah if you live in one of the Hubs, this is great, if not it's ludicrous

Most on the transport forum seem to think it's fantastic news

I'd say the Swords Express will be delighted

ThunbergsAreGo

Victor wrote: »

The most important point is that your fare will allow you travel for 90 minutes. It's effectively a Leap 90 fare with the second and subsequent fare for free, instead of the current €1 discount.

The public consultation and documents are here: https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/dublin-area-bus-network-redesign-public-consultation-report/ This is hte map for the north county: https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1243/map4-proposed-network_dublin_north_outer.pdf
Swords-Skerries is marked as every 30 minutes and half of the buses would start and end in Balbriggan. There will still be Bus Éireann buses in Balbriggan.

There may be additional peak services.

The idea is that you can change to very frequent services south of Swords.

Services from Swords that don't go through the Port Tunnel. Speaking from experience that is a massive black mark against any service.

The Port Tunnel has massively cut the morning commute

LXFlyer

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Presumably the shuttle service to Swords is mainly aimed at those wishing to continue by Metro North when it's up and running.

This has nothing to do with Metro North - that's potentially 10 years away. This is a plan that *could* be introduced within 18 months.

Victor wrote: »

The idea is that you can change to very frequent services south of Swords.

Which are planned to be less frequent than the existing combined 41/41b/41c service, before you add in the removal of the 33 south of Swords. 15 minutes off-peak -v- 10 minute currently from Swords on weekdays.

Very important to examine this in detail.

Chapter 7 of the report is the key element of the document which sets out all the potential changes with maps, and frequency guides towards the back.

plodder

LXFlyer wrote: »

Chapter 7 of the report is the key element of the document which sets out all the potential changes with maps, and frequency guides towards the back.

One of the three guiding principles of the whole thing is:

"Continue to serve the entire area now served, though not necessarily on the same streets. Everyone who has service nearby now would continue to have service"

Am I missing something then? How can they axe the service to outlying communities but continue to serve them?

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

One of the three guiding principles of the whole thing is:

"Continue to serve the entire area now served, though not necessarily on the same streets. Everyone who has service nearby now would continue to have service"

Am I missing something then? How can they axe the service to outlying communities but continue to serve them?

They will have a service, but it will be a connecting one at

Read the report - https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1239/chapter7recommendednetworkplan.pdf

- it suggests timing the 285 to connect within a few minutes of trains at Rush & Lusk station as well as Spine A buses at Swords along with no peak direct services to the city.

Anyone who has used the 33/33a will be familiar with getting caught behind tractors or other traffic on the North County Dublin roads - I don't see how that kind of predictability can be guaranteed.

shesty

The 33X currently runs through the port tunnel to the city centre, and doesn't go near Swords.

The 33A is the current "shuttle bus" equivalent that goes from Balbriggan to Swords. When that was brought in it was supposedly more frequent, at every 30 mins.
The 33 is the original service, which runs (meanders) from Balbriggan to the city centre, through Swords, Santry etc. I think the number of these was reduced once the 33A began.


I can't comment on the changes to the Swords/Malahide etc routes. My main focus were the proposed changes to the 33 route out to Balbriggan. They are effectively cutting the service out this way, if they are reducing it down to only a shuttle bus from Skerries to Swords, and half of these from Balbriggan to Swords. I have to study the report in more detail, but straight away it strikes me that this is.....mad. I mean you only have to drive around Rush/Lusk/Skerries/Balbriggan to see the hundreds of houses being constructed, along with new schools. And there are more in the pipeline.The population is increasing rapidly. And the train is already at capacity (often over capacity, I would argue...). How on earth does it make one iota of sense to drive thousands of people out into housing developments in North Dublin and cut the public transport options available?? It forces more people onto the roads to drive to the city (against the city council's oft-stated wish of making the city centre traffic free....) and to other locations.


In theory I agree fully with the idea behind the overall network changes - increase orbital routes, so not every route runs into the city .But equally, this strikes me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater - the 33X (in particular) is a heavily used service, and there was uproar before Christmas when road closures in Rush affected this service. Did they not learn anything from that??


It just annoys me, I've lived in North Dublin my whole life and we consistently get ignored when it comes to public transport, yet they are quick enough to throw up hundreds of shoebox houses to solve the city's housing problems. Dublin Bus and Irish Rail seem to completely ignore this area and consider city limits to be somewhere around Drumcondra - the airport at a stretch, and even that they are reluctant to consider much - which is ridiculous.


It is just a proposal, but I think everyone should put their view forward anyway.

shesty

plodder wrote: »

One of the three guiding principles of the whole thing is:

"Continue to serve the entire area now served, though not necessarily on the same streets. Everyone who has service nearby now would continue to have service"

Am I missing something then? How can they axe the service to outlying communities but continue to serve them?

They will have a "service"...it's just questionable whether the service will be at the level that it's at now.
Good use of marketing language.....

plodder

LXFlyer wrote: »

They will have a service, but it will be a connecting one at

Read the report - https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1239/chapter7recommendednetworkplan.pdf

- it suggests timing the 285 to connect within a few minutes of trains at Rush & Lusk station as well as Spine A buses at Swords along with no peak direct services to the city.

Anyone who has used the 33/33a will be familiar with getting caught behind tractors or other traffic on the North County Dublin roads - I don't see how that kind of predictability can be guaranteed.

I was talking about the 41b service from Rolestown. As far as I can see they have axed it with no replacement.

Wishbone Ash

naughtb4 wrote: »

Services from Swords that don't go through the Port Tunnel. Speaking from experience that is a massive black mark against any service.

The Port Tunnel has massively cut the morning commute

You see to be assuming that everyone travelling from Swords is going to the city center.

If you wish to go to Drumcondra/Croke Park/Mater Hospital/Dorset street etc., travelling through the Port Tunnel would be a bit inconvenient.

ThunbergsAreGo

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You see to be assuming that everyone travelling from Swords is going to the city center.

If you wish to go to Drumcondra/Croke Park/Mater Hospital/Dorset street etc., travelling through the Port Tunnel would be a bit inconvenient.

Of course,so both services should be made available. That's why we have a and b routes now

Why is it one or the other?

shesty

Of course not everyone wants to go through the Tunnel. But axing the route completely, and making everyone go through Swords if they want to use the bus is basically going back about 15 years. There does need to be 2 options, one through Swords, the other directly. There was a large fight to retain the 33X after the train bridge over the Malahide estuary was fixed a few years ago(which was when it was originally introduced), and another uproar when it was routed around Rush due to roadworks last year. Surely both those things should tell Dublin Bus that the service is heavily used and necessary for many people - never mind the numbers on it every day.

LXFlyer

shesty wrote: »

Of course not everyone wants to go through the Tunnel. But axing the route completely, and making everyone go through Swords if they want to use the bus is basically going back about 15 years. There does need to be 2 options, one through Swords, the other directly. There was a large fight to retain the 33X after the train bridge over the Malahide estuary was fixed a few years ago(which was when it was originally introduced), and another uproar when it was routed around Rush due to roadworks last year. Surely both those things should tell Dublin Bus that the service is heavily used and necessary for many people - never mind the numbers on it every day.

I doubt that Dublin Bus need convincing.

This is an NTA plan.

Irish Halo

My question is the same now as it was when they introduced the 33A and axed the last 33 out of town back in March 2002 (actually they culled any 33 after 18:30 originally).
Will the final 285 from Swords wait for the last A4 from town and will that 285 go all the way to Balbriggan?
At the time DB said it would, it didn't and they had reintroduced the last bus by May 2002.

cbreeze

Irish Halo wrote: »

My question is the same now as it was when they introduced the 33A and axed the last 33 out of town back in March 2002 (actually they culled any 33 after 18:30 originally).
Will the final 285 from Swords wait for the last A4 from town and will that 285 go all the way to Balbriggan?
At the time DB said it would, it didn't and they had reintroduced the last bus by May 2002.

I remember when two people planted themselves in front of a 41 in Abbey St because they axed the 33 without telling anyone. Driver called Gardai. Gardai called inspector. People refused to budge. Inspector persuaded driver of 41 to drive route to Balbriggan. Result: 33 restored.

LeoB

I would have thought with all the construction going on in North County Dublin the 33x service should be extended. Why in gods name would I want to use a service that takes me through Swords when currently I can go straight to Dublin.

I can see the benefits of Swords swap for people going to Airport, Santry Drumcondra etc but the 33x needs to stay to encourage people onto public transport

shesty

You would think LeoB, wouldn't you....

LXFlyer

I think people north of Swords (and in Swords itself) need to look very carefully at these plans.

The 33X is full to the brim at peak and the notion that people will switch to an overcrowded train at Rush & Lusk from the new local route is nonsense.

The number of buses off-peak between Swords and the city via the Swords QBC is being cut from 6 an hour (5 x 41 group and 1 x 33) to 4 on the A4!

How is that an improvement, and how will the passengers off the inbound 285 travelling towards the city fit with the A4 customers if service levels are cut by two buses an hour?

Outbound people risk 25 minute waits in Swords if their connection is delayed (quite possible) rather than a direct 33 home - I'm struggling to see how this can be seen as better?

My own view is that some of these proposals are crazy, and that's even before you look at the cutbacks to the 43 replacement to Clongriffin and the absence of the 41b and 142.

The Davestator

I think that the current bus system is brutal and not viable.

You cant have buses from swords, skerries, portrane, rolestown, airport, santry etc all going down the one road into town, Drumcondra.

All half full by then.
All playing leap frog at each stop and holding up traffic.

Get everyone to a central location and have buses leaving consonantly sounds better to me.

Yes, you may have to wait for a connection, but I'd be amazed if your journey wasn't faster overall.

pinkypinky

There's also a flaw for Swords that currently the 41 goes into the airport but under the new system, it seems you'd have to change.

I'm all for faster buses to town but lots of people who work in the airport live in Swords.

ThunbergsAreGo

The Davestator wrote: »

I think that the current bus system is brutal and not viable.

You cant have buses from swords, skerries, portrane, rolestown, airport, santry etc all going down the one road into town, Drumcondra.

All half full by then.
All playing leap frog at each stop and holding up traffic.

Get everyone to a central location and have buses leaving consonantly sounds better to me.

Yes, you may have to wait for a connection, but I'd be amazed if your journey wasn't faster overall.

Why would it be faster of its the same route but requiring a change?

Also no way it's faster (getting to town) then the tunnel, which is why the swords express (and other Dublin bus ran express services ) is so busy

The Davestator

naughtb4 wrote: »

Why would it be faster of its the same route but requiring a change?

Also no way it's faster (getting to town) then the tunnel, which is why the swords express (and other Dublin bus ran express services ) is so busy

Because the buses will have a dedicated corridor and wont be leap frogging each other and having to stop at stops every 400 metres!

I expect the Swords express will still be faster, but its also more expensive, so not comparable.

LXFlyer

The Davestator wrote: »

Because the buses will have a dedicated corridor and wont be leap frogging each other and having to stop at stops every 400 metres!

I expect the Swords express will still be faster, but its also more expensive, so not comparable.

That’s assuming the infrastructure works happen in advance of the network change.

The NTA have indicated that there is no guarantee that this will happen.

I’d also suggest that most people using the 33 from town use the timetable (as they would getting the train) so they’re not waiting around per se for the bus. There is a clear risk that those people may have a wait in Swords of up to 29 minutes if their outbound connecting bus gets delayed, which is quite possible given it will start in Rathfarnham.

jd

pinkypinky wrote: »

There's also a flaw for Swords that currently the 41 goes into the airport but under the new system, it seems you'd have to change.

I'm all for faster buses to town but lots of people who work in the airport live in Swords.

Route 282 connects Swords to the Airport

LXFlyer

jd wrote: »

Route 282 connects Swords to the Airport

And at a frequency of every 10 minutes during the week and Saturday afternoon, and every 13 minutes most of the time outside that.

pinkypinky

I missed that: thanks. But it looks like quite an indirect route around various housing estates. I'd suspect that if you were getting a 41 from Swords Manor now versus the new route, the former would be much quicker.

I see they're having a consultation day on 16th August in the Pavilions from 2-8pm. No day scheduled yet for Malahide or further north.

ThunbergsAreGo

The Davestator wrote: »

Because the buses will have a dedicated corridor and wont be leap frogging each other and having to stop at stops every 400 metres!

I expect the Swords express will still be faster, but its also more expensive, so not comparable.

But slower than the express services going from Donabate Skerries etc

It feels like the plan was not designed with people going to work in mind at all but rather ensuring the most "connectivity". For most people they use Public Transport to get to and from work, for this purpose the plan seems pretty flawed

ThunbergsAreGo

pinkypinky wrote: »

I missed that: thanks. But it looks like quite an indirect route around various housing estates. I'd suspect that if you were getting a 41 from Swords Manor now versus the new route, the former would be much quicker.

I see they're having a consultation day on 16th August in the Pavilions from 2-8pm. No day scheduled yet for Malahide or further north.

Seems like a shorter version of the current 102

pinkypinky

There was apparently over 500 people at a meeting about this in Malahide on Monday night - was run by Darragh O'Brien and his brother who is a councillor.

LeoB

shesty wrote: »

You would think LeoB, wouldn't you....

I have been known to think an odd time;)

People in the transport authority have not thought this through or there seems to be a lack of planning.

I can see why they want people to use public transport

shesty

You'd wonder why they don't think in the transport authority ;-)
I have a feeling they are taking the attitude of the train being able to pick up the slack, and also that there is now a private bus company operating from Lusk.They do a bus a day from Skerries too,so I expect if the 33x/33A bus route to Swords goes(essentially), it leaves an opening for that private bus route to extend to Rush/Skerries/Balbriggan....ie, sure aren't we covered so.Which is fine but doesn't seem right.
I wonder is the Pavilions information night going to be the only one out here, with the expectation we would all go to it....

Carawaystick

shesty wrote: »

You'd wonder why they don't think in the transport authority ;-)
I have a feeling they are taking the attitude of the train being able to pick up the slack, and also that there is now a private bus company operating from Lusk.They do a bus a day from Skerries too,so I expect if the 33x/33A bus route to Swords goes(essentially), it leaves an opening for that private bus route to extend to Rush/Skerries/Balbriggan....ie, sure aren't we covered so.Which is fine but doesn't seem right.
I wonder is the Pavilions information night going to be the only one out here, with the expectation we would all go to it....

Except the coaches on the Fingal express from Lusk is not accessible, and so should not be considered a replacement or even given a license at all.

Its normal to beat a 33 from Lusk to the top of Dorset st on a bike as it is. Removing the 33x and making people change will make it possible to cycle without breaking a sweat and beat the bus.

Always number 1

The people of Rush Lusk Skerries, Balbriggan, Donabate and Portrane need to make a stand on this. How many new houses have been built in this area in the last few years and no increase in buses or trains? Xpresso buses heading for town are full leaving Lusk in the mornings and unless the schools are off you'll seldom get a seat on the train after Skerries and is usually crammed by Donabate. When the Golden Ridge estate was being planned, one of the conditions of permission was the provision of a shuttle bus from there to the station. 13 years on from the first houses being built there's no sign of it and no sign of Fingal County Council taking action against the builder. The R128 from Skerries to Lusk via Rush has been in bits between the snow in 2010, Eirgrid works, Irish Water works and with more and more people moving into the area it's only going to get worse. We have been putting up with enough out here for long enough.
The time to act is now!
With regard to the 33/33A/33B/33D and the Northern Commuter train line, in the 2016 census, the population of Balbriggan/Skerries/Loughshinny/Rush/Lusk/Donabate/Portrane combined is over 57,000. While I appreciate that not all of them will be going into town or whatever, you're looking at possibly routing another 30,000 people into Swords or onto an already over-crowded train line (and that's before you add in other areas of North County Dublin AND all the extra people who will be moving into all the new houses that are being built in the area)

It's a disgrace.

kastasia

There's a good article on this in the Skerries News, will try to upload later.

ThunbergsAreGo

Anyone know when the dart expansion starts will the trains run at all?

Places more emphasis on the bus

steedevaney

Victor wrote: »

The most important point is that your fare will allow you travel for 90 minutes. It's effectively a Leap 90 fare with the second and subsequent fare for free, instead of the current €1 discount. Get on a bus, change to a train, get on another bus in Dublin, all for one fare.

From what I have seen recently this is not true for commuter towns.

https://twitter.com/busconnects/status/1019225037671460864?s=21

ThunbergsAreGo

steedevaney wrote: »

From what I have seen recently this is not true for commuter towns.

https://twitter.com/busconnects/status/1019225037671460864?s=21

The whole plan fails if this doesn't happen, cannot expect people to pay more AND take longer to get to work

steedevaney

naughtb4 wrote: »

The whole plan fails if this doesn't happen, cannot expect people to pay more AND take longer to get to work

I agree but at the moment it doesn’t seem to be too publicly known.