Is it common for cows to be bred by her father?

Pussyhands

Does this happen and is it common practice?

I would have thought not but reading online seems to be OK.

emaherx

Pussyhands wrote: »

Does this happen and is it common practice?

I would have thought not but reading online seems to be OK.

Would be quite undesirable to have inbred cattle, so definitely not common practice. What have you read online that makes you think it's OK?

patsy_mccabe

You'd be amazed at the amount of inbreeding there is in cattle. A limousin bull sold recently for big money in the UK. He had the bull Vantastic appear twice in his immediate breeding.

High bike

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You'd be amazed at the amount of inbreeding there is in cattle. A limousin bull sold recently for big money in the UK. He had the bull Vantastic appear twice in his immediate breeding.

What do u consider immediate breeding Patsy how many generations back...

Lady Haywire

Would not be common at all in cattle, it's done in some places in America to check for genetic abnormalities I think but that's about it. If you've able to use a different bull why bother chancing or allowing it to happen.

Fairly prevalent in racehorses though, you could see the same stallion crop up 2/3 times across the breeding.

Gawddawggonnit

There’s a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

I successfully inbred for three generations, but after that problems started to appear.

If you inbreed for 6 generations, the 7th generation could be a ‘new’ breed...angus, Hereford etc etc.

Rule of thumb. When you inbreed once, go ‘out’ twice, and back ‘in’ again iykwim...

J.O. Farmer

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

I successfully inbred for three generations, but after that problems started to appear.

If you inbreed for 6 generations, the 7th generation could be a ‘new’ breed...angus, Hereford etc etc.

Rule of thumb. When you inbreed once, go ‘out’ twice, and back ‘in’ again iykwim...

The only difference between line breeding and inbreeding is whether it works or not if you're talking about doing it deliberately.

patsy_mccabe

High bike wrote: »

What do u consider immediate breeding Patsy how many generations back...

Can't find the article now, but it was a high profile sale over in Carlisle. Vantastic featured twice within 3 generations I think. He was the Sire and also the Grandsire of the Dam, I think.

tanko

As long as one bull doesnt make up more than 50% or maybe even slightly more of the calf it wont be a problem.
Have a cow here whose morher and father were bred of the same bull, she was an accident but is perfectly normal.

TPF2012

We have a heifer calf this year that we think the mothers bull calf from last year sired. So son and mother combination.Would you keep the heifer for breeding, nice simmental heifer.

patsy_mccabe

Any I have here with inbreeding, all have poor feet.

p dogg

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Any I have here with inbreeding, all have poor feet.

Hello all, there is some great information being given on farming boardsies so thanks in advance. I have been wondering lately about this very topic.
Currently we are in suckling with 40 cows running with a Simmental bull. My question is this:
I have traced his breeding, he is a hillcrest champion son so 25 per cent Gretnahouse Supersonic so daughters of my stockbull will be 12 and half per cent Ghs.
I have a seriously stylish Curaheen Earp weanling bull pbnr bred ourselves that I have traced his breeding and he is 10 per cent Ghs.
So going by that could I be able to use him as a future stockbull to breed with my current stockbull daughters given that a cross between the two is at 22 and half per cent.he is a smashing animal but if it was risky I might not keep him. Thanks again

Buford T. Justice XIX

p dogg wrote: »

Hello all, there is some great information being given on farming boardsies so thanks in advance. I have been wondering lately about this very topic.
Currently we are in suckling with 40 cows running with a Simmental bull. My question is this:
I have traced his breeding, he is a hillcrest champion son so 25 per cent Gretnahouse Supersonic so daughters of my stockbull will be 12 and half per cent Ghs.
I have a seriously stylish Curaheen Earp weanling bull pbnr bred ourselves that I have traced his breeding and he is 10 per cent Ghs.
So going by that could I be able to use him as a future stockbull to breed with my current stockbull daughters given that a cross between the two is at 22 and half per cent.he is a smashing animal but if it was risky I might not keep him. Thanks again

Seeing as only half the genetic material from each side is passed on, the level of crossbreeding would only be half that, ie 11.25%


In dairy stock, any inbreeding of 6.25% is flagged before AI and the farmer is asked if he wishes to proceed. The risks would be small but I would be reluctant to breed at that level of inbreeding.

High bike

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Seeing as only half the genetic material from each side is passed on, the level of crossbreeding would only be half that, ie 11.25%


In dairy stock, any inbreeding of 6.25% is flagged before AI and the farmer is asked if he wishes to proceed. The risks would be small but I would be reluctant to breed at that level of inbreeding.

i checked with icbf and the Irish limousin society re inbreeding and that's the answer I got too if it's less than 6.25% work away

p dogg

High bike wrote: »

i checked with icbf and the Irish limousin society re inbreeding and that's the answer I got too if it's less than 6.25% work away

Thanks for the replies folks, there about 3 or 4 years ago I was at the Knockane Simmental dispersal sale and there was several animals there that day that I noticed had close inbreeding, way way more than 6.25percent some definitely up at 25 to 30. It didn't take away from the stock. They were serious quality.

The man in red and black

p dogg wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks, there about 3 or 4 years ago I was at the Knockane Simmental dispersal sale and there was several animals there that day that I noticed had close inbreeding, way way more than 6.25percent some definitely up at 25 to 30. It didn't take away from the stock. They were serious quality.

Maybe not visually but you can't be sure what else is going on. I find pedigree beef cattle not as hardy as commercials and the fertility can be a nightmare. This can happen in commercials too but inbreding multiples any inherited defects so I'm not a fan. Just look at what inbreeding has done to dogs, German Shepherds, Pugs, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels to name a few with multiple inherited diseases/deformities.

kevthegaff

The auld fella used to breed alot of greyhounds, the best dogs in general would be from the a small amount of sires. Hence Australian dogs such as Brett lee through ai became widespread to avoid inbreeding, also a rare time breeders might cross with a coursing dog.

squinn2912

Now and again we’ve had cows bulled by their father. I remember feet and joint problems but fantastic cattle. Any suspected heifers aren’t bred on. Had the same bull 10 seasons but he’s away on now so not an issue.
We’ve never done it before but I checked any bills we’ve bought to see if there’s any link between them and the old bull. Thankfully not. I’d try to stay clear but if the experts reckon it’s ok then up to you

farawaygrass

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

There’s a big difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

I successfully inbred for three generations, but after that problems started to appear.

If you inbreed for 6 generations, the 7th generation could be a ‘new’ breed...angus, Hereford etc etc.

Rule of thumb. When you inbreed once, go ‘out’ twice, and back ‘in’ again iykwim...

Interesting. How do you mean by the rule of thumb-so if you had a heifer out of a son bulling the mother, if you kept a granddaughter of her then you could bull her to the original bull that bulled his mother? What is the ‘official’ of definite difference between line breeding and in breeding?

Angus2018

The father has a story of a cow being bulled by her father by accident. Result was a costly ciserian and a very deformed dead calf.

squinn2912

Angus2018 wrote: »

The father has a story of a cow being bulled by her father by accident. Result was a costly ciserian and a very deformed dead calf.

Better staying clear esp that close! Plenty of good bulls out there without that

Never wrestle with pigs

p dogg wrote: »

Hello all, there is some great information being given on farming boardsies so thanks in advance. I have been wondering lately about this very topic.
Currently we are in suckling with 40 cows running with a Simmental bull. My question is this:
I have traced his breeding, he is a hillcrest champion son so 25 per cent Gretnahouse Supersonic so daughters of my stockbull will be 12 and half per cent Ghs.
I have a seriously stylish Curaheen Earp weanling bull pbnr bred ourselves that I have traced his breeding and he is 10 per cent Ghs.
So going by that could I be able to use him as a future stockbull to breed with my current stockbull daughters given that a cross between the two is at 22 and half per cent.he is a smashing animal but if it was risky I might not keep him. Thanks again

Be fine, but remember that you can't use a nr bull for the bdgp if your in it.

tanko

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

Be fine, but remember that you can't use a nr bull for the bdgp if your in it.

I think you might be wrong about that.

charolais0153

tanko wrote: »

I think you might be wrong about that.

He has to be beef breed and genotyped 4 or 5 stars

tanko

charolais0153 wrote: »

He has to be beef breed and genotyped 4 or 5 stars

True but doesnt have to be pbr i think.

charolais0153

tanko wrote: »

True but doesnt have to be pbr i think.

Ya doesnt matter if hes even purebred just had to be a beef breed

Gawddawggonnit

farawaygrass wrote: »

Interesting. How do you mean by the rule of thumb-so if you had a heifer out of a son bulling the mother, if you kept a granddaughter of her then you could bull her to the original bull that bulled his mother? What is the ‘official’ of definite difference between line breeding and in breeding?

Line breeding is where a certain sire or dam appears on both sides of the pedigree. Very effective way of ensuring the continuation of a certain trait in the line.
In breeding is mother-son, father daughter etc. Excellent way of ‘refining’ the traits that you’re after. Downside is you’re also refining any bad/undesirable traits and concentrating them. Inbreeding can also bring out any temperamental issues.

High bike

charolais0153 wrote: »

Ya doesnt matter if hes even purebred just had to be a beef breed

correct doesn't have to be purebred just needs to be 4or 5 star beef bred

p dogg

High bike wrote: »

correct doesn't have to be purebred just needs to be 4or 5 star beef bred

No we didn't enter the bdgs, probably should have though. I was looking at an article there and it said that in the USA 80 per cent of the entire population of cattle are 8 to 10 percent inbred. That's some amount of cattle

High bike

p dogg wrote: »

No we didn't enter the bdgs, probably should have though. I was looking at an article there and it said that in the USA 80 per cent of the entire population of cattle are 8 to 10 percent inbred. That's some amount of cattle

suppose if they'r not too close it doesn't really matter

High bike

p dogg wrote: »

No we didn't enter the bdgs, probably should have though. I was looking at an article there and it said that in the USA 80 per cent of the entire population of cattle are 8 to 10 percent inbred. That's some amount of cattle

suppose if they'r not too close it doesn't really matter

High bike

p dogg wrote: »

No we didn't enter the bdgs, probably should have though. I was looking at an article there and it said that in the USA 80 per cent of the entire population of cattle are 8 to 10 percent inbred. That's some amount of cattle

suppose if they'r not too close it doesn't really matter

farawaygrass

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Line breeding is where a certain sire or dam appears on both sides of the pedigree. Very effective way of ensuring the continuation of a certain trait in the line.
In breeding is mother-son, father daughter etc. Excellent way of ‘refining’ the traits that you’re after. Downside is you’re also refining any bad/undesirable traits and concentrating them. Inbreeding can also bring out any temperamental issues.

Would breeding a heifer to her grandsure be considered line breeding or in breeding?

Buford T. Justice XIX

farawaygrass wrote: »

Would breeding a heifer to her grandsure be considered line breeding or in breeding?

If it works, it's line breeding.


If it doesn't, it's inbreeding.

patsy_mccabe

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You'd be amazed at the amount of inbreeding there is in cattle. A limousin bull sold recently for big money in the UK. He had the bull Vantastic appear twice in his immediate breeding.

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Can't find the article now, but it was a high profile sale over in Carlisle. Vantastic featured twice within 3 generations I think. He was the Sire and also the Grandsire of the Dam, I think.

Ampertaine Majestic was the bull's name. He sold for 35,000gns sterling.
Here's his breeding. So 1/4 plus 1/8 of his breeding would be Vantastic.

https://webapp.icbf.com/v2/app/bull-search/view/1641403346

patsy_mccabe

Just looked at Tiger Roll's pedigree there (Grand national winner today). Northern Dancer appears 4 times in his back breeding. :rolleyes:

https://www.pedigreequery.com/tiger+roll

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Just looked at Tiger Roll's pedigree there (Grand national winner today). Northern Dancer appears 4 times in his back breeding. :rolleyes:

https://www.pedigreequery.com/tiger+roll

They say if you keep it below %75 it's ok. You can mate a half brother to a half sister, or you can introduce the same bull again 3 generations down the line. Bit strange, I haven't done it yet but probably will in the near future with a few pedigrees. You can bring out the best of breeding and a very nice uniform group of cattle that way but you can also bring out the bad. You can also bring out the bad by breeding the normal way.

I was very against it but after talking to a few good breeders that do it and listening to their take on it I'm swinging the other way. I definitely wouldn't like to make a habit of it but given the right cow and opportunity with a flush or something like that I'd do it no bother now.

J.O. Farmer

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

They say if you keep it below %75 it's ok. You can mate a half brother to a half sister, or you can introduce the same bull again 3 generations down the line. Bit strange, I haven't done it yet but probably will in the near future with a few pedigrees. You can bring out the best of breeding and a very nice uniform group of cattle that way but you can also bring out the bad. You can also bring out the bad by breeding the normal way.

I was very against it but after talking to a few good breeders that do it and listening to their take on it I'm swinging the other way. I definitely wouldn't like to make a habit of it but given the right cow and opportunity with a flush or something like that I'd do it no bother now.

What you're describing is line breeding or inbreeding.
The only difference is whether the good or the bad comes out.

Line breeding = Fantastic cattle

In breeding = Cattle with every fault known and unknown within the line.

As with all breeding decisions there's risk involved but that's something for each breeder to determine.

High bike

Have a cow that I was going to move on as I thought she was empty bit now it turns out she's in calf and it can o ly be to her half brother,they had the same dam.What are peoples thoughts on the calf is ther likely to be problems.