Being sent to a company doctor

MoatianGirl

Hi.

Just looking for a bit of advice.

I have been asked by my employer to attend a company doctor and I am a bit concerned about it. I have checked on internal staff policies and can't find out much about it.
By way of background, I am back from 2 weeks of illness, all GP certified. However in the last year I have had 2 other periods of absence where I was hospitalised and once instance required surgery. All days off were certified by the hospital and GP and I didn't receive any pay for these absences.

So my question is should I be concerned about the request? I don't understand what seeing the company doctor would achieve now. I am happy to attend but was wondering if there may be an ulterior motive to dismiss me due to not attending work, although all was verified and I didn't receive any salary when I was out.
Has anyone on here any experience with these requests? Any opinion would be appreciated.

Thank you.

CeilingFly

Quite standard, particularly in larger companies and especially American companies.

Can't dismiss you for such reason in nay way possible (unless you've been there less than 12 months), so probably more of a check up and seeing if there's any underlying reason that may cause other absences and thus this could be be built into your workload. (eg, have you on less onerous or time dependent tasks)

OMM 0000

CeilingFly wrote: »

Can't dismiss you for such reason in nay way possible (unless you've been there less than 12 months),

That's not true. You can be fired for being sick.

"In some circumstances, where an employee has consistently been absent from work (or if through illness is no longer capable of continuing work), employment may be terminated." - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

MoatianGirl - how long were your previous periods of illness?

It sounds like the company want to get a second opinion on your state of health. But if you're healthy now... I'm not quite sure what the company doctor will be able to prove!

Personally I would not be worried if my performance is good and I haven't been lying about my health/attendance.

seamus

It could just be standard process, X number of absences for illness in a year and the company has to have you assessed by an independent doctor.

There's nothing to be concerned about:

- The doctor who will examine you is a qualified doctor
- Doctor/Patient confidentiality ranks higher than client privilege - that is, the doctor absolutely cannot tell the company anything that you reveal to him.
- The purpose of the examination is ascertain whether you are fit for work. Nothing more. The doctor's report for the company will basically be a Yes/No answer to whether you are fit for work.

fxotoole

Don’t know about private companies by this is standard stuff in the civil service, when an employee has been out sick for an extended period of time

jimmycrackcorm

The cohosh is just covering itself to ensure that you are fit enough to go back to work. The fact that they are asking you to do it post illness points or that they aren't trying to catch you out.

MoatianGirl

Thanks for getting back to me on this. I am feeling really unsure, I have been working for over 20 years and never been a situation like this before.

I was out for a period of 5 weeks about 12 months ago and another 5 weeks earlier this year. Both times I was in hospital for a period but the issues were unrelated just bad luck. I didn't get paid while I was out and didn't expect to get paid. The latest illness was for 2 weeks. Every day out was certified.

I cannot work out what use seeing a company doctor is now as he /she will not have any term of reference 're my previous illnesses so i can't help think there is another motive.

Your link to citizens advice is helpful as I didnt realise you could be fired due to illness. Inthink this is probably what they are setting up to do.

Mycroft H

12 weeks of absence in a rolling rough 12 month period is pretty high. I know it's bad luck in this case, but I'm surprised they've sent you to the company doctor only now...

I know of people who've been on written warnings for sickness after about 10 weeks, even if it's bad luck

TG1

I would imagine it is standard procedure. Most places have trigger points that kick off standard absence management procedures,and I'd say the length and frequency have just flagged that procedures need to be started.

To be honest, it seems a long time to leave it, so they may have delayed it all due to understanding you were hit with bad luck, but the most recent absence has forced them to act regardless.

I wouldn't be stressing out over it.

LegacyUser

Try not to worry, first of all. You have been genuinely ill, and were properly certified.

It is the norm in a lot of large companies, and in my experience, is to make sure that you are fully better and fit for work. They may also make recommendations if appropriate, for example (not your case) but where someone has been out long term, they can suggest to the company that a return on a phased basis is the best approach.

Our company is very large but does not retain a 'company doctor'. They use the services of doctors and other professionals who specialise in this area. A lot of companies do this. So these people are experienced in what they are doing.

I would say go in with an open mind. They will be 'on your side' (for want of a better way to put it).

All the best.

IrishZeus

Op, I actually ran and managed an occupational health practice in the past - we were the “company doctor” for many companies. (I was the business manager and not part of the medical team itself)

You have nothing to be worried about I would think. Recurrent periods of illness often result in a referral to occ health specialists. This can be to check fitness to work, to ensure that the company is covered in all eventualities, to check if adaptions need to be made to you working routine or environment etc etc etc. There are many reasons and they are very very rarely sinister - I don’t think I ever came across any.

Some companies work with a scale (the name escapes me at the moment) whereby periods of illness trigger referral - this is simply a part of absenteeism management. Numerous short term illness and uncertified days off can lead to action from the company if the doctor believes the patient is taking the piss. In your case of longer term certified sick leave and hospitalization, you have nothing to be worried about.

Also as above, the occ health doctor cannot release any information on your illness without your specific consent. They can make recommendations based on their findings etc, but your privacy is respected in all scenarios.

If you are worried or want any further info, feel free to PM me.

CeilingFly

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's not true. You can be fired for being sick.

"In some circumstances, where an employee has consistently been absent from work (or if through illness is no longer capable of continuing work), employment may be terminated." - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

You can also get a speeding ticket for going 1km over the speed limit - unless it was along term issue that would cause continued problems with the work, it is nigh on impossible to dismiss someone for just a few absences that have had medical certs.

Company is more than likely just trying to get a handle on the issue so taht they are more informed and unless the OP has something to hide, there is nothing to worry about

OMM 0000

CeilingFly wrote: »

You can also get a speeding ticket for going 1km over the speed limit - unless it was along term issue that would cause continued problems with the work, it is nigh on impossible to dismiss someone for just a few absences that have had medical certs.

Company is more than likely just trying to get a handle on the issue so taht they are more informed and unless the OP has something to hide, there is nothing to worry about

I know you like to argue here, but you're simply wrong and it's ok that you're wrong.

If a company can make an argument that the person's illness is negatively impacting the business, the person can be fired.

I've fired maybe 20 people over my management career. It's not the "nigh on impossible" thing people think it is.

The OP has been sick for 12 weeks over the past year. The employer could definitely use that as an excuse going forward if they planned to can her.

I know you'll need to have the last word, so go for it.

MoatianGirl

Thanks for all the comments. Really helpful and I guess the take away for me is that it really is a grey area and the referral may be just tick box exercise, or to get a genuine opinion on my capacity to work going forward or indeed a means to an end to get rid of me.

I guess I will see what happens next. All my periods of absence were genuine and certified so I am not concerned there & I understand that a business needs bums on seats so if I cannot attend work, albeit through no fault of my own, then moving me on makes commercial sense.

Thanks to all who providing their opinion.

_Brian

MoatianGirl wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to me on this. I am feeling really unsure, I have been working for over 20 years and never been a situation like this before.

I was out for a period of 5 weeks about 12 months ago and another 5 weeks earlier this year. Both times I was in hospital for a period but the issues were unrelated just bad luck. I didn't get paid while I was out and didn't expect to get paid. The latest illness was for 2 weeks. Every day out was certified.

I cannot work out what use seeing a company doctor is now as he /she will not have any term of reference 're my previous illnesses so i can't help think there is another motive.

Your link to citizens advice is helpful as I didnt realise you could be fired due to illness. Inthink this is probably what they are setting up to do.

I’ve sent employees to the company doctor on a number of occasions and never with a view to pushing them out.

When we managed employees out it’s always on performance or conduct issues as it’s an easier process without a third party involved.

You can really only be let go on health grounds of it gets to the point where you are no longer fit to complete the tasks you were hired to do and no reasonable alternative is available.

CeilingFly

It is NOT a means of getting rid of you - just get rid of that thought and ignore any eejit that even suggests that.

I've been an employer for over 25 years and it is nigh on impossible to dismiss someone due to illness.

You'd need to be out sick constantly for a couple of years before it was even possible to commence such action and I can assure you there are many many far far easier ways to move on an employee, so anyone putting such a suggestion in your head knows utter zilch about employment legislation.

JustAThought

I disagree totally. You can be restructured out of a role that you are no longer wanted in due to ling periods of illness /no longer fit to do the job for which you were employed and then reatructured out of the company. Simple. Just a few procedural steps - very sorry,great worker, payment to see you on ykur way and not struggling with the mortgage while.you get a new job - then BOOM -cant pass a medical to get a new job.

OP -Im not saying you have a choice but I wouod be worried and also asking who get to see,know and discuss your medical issues etc etc

irishgrover

I manage a large team and it is not at all unusual for my team members to be sent to company doctor....
The primary reason is
A.) To ensure that the individual is fit to return to work
B.) Get professional advise on what if anything I need to do to ensure the team member is adequately supported in their return to work.

I have never sent a co worker to a company doctor as part of a plan to manage them out the door.

I don't want to know and don't enquire as to the nature of the consult. IE I never get a copy of a doctor's report..... With exception being B above.

All people I have sent to the doctor have been apprehensive beforehand. All of them found benefit in the visit and were happy afterwards. I've never met or spoken to the doctor, but feel like I know him based on the positive feedback.

Basically, to the op, I've would not worry at all. Think of it as a free 2nd opinion....

Regarding your rights, you have plenty...if you have questions, ask them of your manager.... If you are concerned about what will be in the report and who will see it then ask (preferably via email so you have a record)...

Also, with regards to the misconception that you cannot be terminated for certified illness absences, this is simply not true. You can. However it's not something that is done lightly and to be honest if this was part of that you would probably already know.
In such cases the company would have a number of responsibilities and checks eg..
1. Establish that a pattern exists and establish that it is unlikely to get better
2. Warm the employee that their employment is at risk etc

Finally, personally, and hypothetically, if I wanted to wack somebody the last place I would send them is to a company doctor. If a doctor reports back that the employee has a condition then I may have an increased responsibility to accommodate that employee.....

Sorry for the long post, basically don't worry and don't get too defensive etc

Very best of luck

bobbysands81

One thing that seems to be missed is that your employee has a health and well-being responsibility for you as an employee so could be just acting out of concern.

CeilingFly

JustAThought wrote: »

I disagree totally. You can be restructured out of a role that you are no longer wanted in due to ling periods of illness /no longer fit to do the job for which you were employed and then reatructured out of the company. Simple. Just a few procedural steps - very sorry,great worker, payment to see you on ykur way and not struggling with the mortgage while.you get a new job - then BOOM -cant pass a medical to get a new job.

OP -Im not saying you have a choice but I wouod be worried and also asking who get to see,know and discuss your medical issues etc etc

Scaremongering bullsh1t

Op has not had "long periods of illness" they had 3 periods and at least one was unconnected to another

The wrc would have a field day if a ridiculous scenario like yours came up.

So stop the scaremongering bullsh1t.

screamer

There's 2 reasons why they do it
1. Is that it's a pain in the ass for the employee and a bit uncomfortable to go to a doctor you don't know to discuss your illness. It's therefore somewhat of a deterrent to calling in sick again.
2. They need to be sure you are fully fit for work and if there are any accomodations they need to make for you. E.g. if you were working in a very manual physical role and had hurt your back they may need to leave you on light duties for a while etc.
The good news is that the company doctor cannot share any info about your condition etc only whether you are fully fit to work and any recommendations to assist you if needed Iike the above from a source they can trust. After all your doctor is an unknown source to them.

It's pretty standard and I worked in a company where any 3 week illness with absence from work or third occurrances of illness in 12 months rolling was automatically referred to company doctor.

ELM327

Having worked in or on behalf of a number of american MNC based in Ireland this is standard for any absence from work (even certified) once it goes over 2 consecutive weeks.

Nothing to worry about at all OP, it's the company sticking to their policy. I was told informally by someone I knew from a company gym that worked in HR, that they have to send many people, so they can send the time wasters too and not be accused of unfair bias.

davo10

CeilingFly wrote: »

Scaremongering bullsh1t

Op has not had "long periods of illness" they had 3 periods and at least one was unconnected to another

The wrc would have a field day if a ridiculous scenario like yours came up.

So stop the scaremongering bullsh1t.

Why do you do this?

If you do some research about unfair dismissal and illness, you will see that an employee can be dismissed if he/she is absent for long periods and their absence effects the running of the business. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Of course the employer has to be very careful, of course they have to have supporting evidence of the effect of the absence, but it can be done. 12 weeks in one year is a long time and will disrupt any business.

So, it's not easy, but it can be done, to say it is scaremongering and bull**** just illustrates that you are not informed on this.

From Employmentrightsireland website:

1) Capability, competence, or conduct

Capability grounds are usually premised on issues like lateness, absenteeism, and persistent absence through illness.

If lateness or absenteeism is at issue then the employer will be expected to have documentary evidence to substantiate this claim such as clocking in records, or absenteeism files that are not medically certified. In addition the employer should have evident of the severity of the absences being brought to the attention of the employee.

If illness or injury is at issue, it is often assumed that you cannot be dismissed while on certified sick leave from you work. However, this is not true.

It is difficult to lay down hard and fast rules to apply to these cases as each are different and each will be treated on its own merits. Accordingly these instances are usually divided into short term and long term categories.

Short term illnesses are taken to include medical illnesses which require the individual to be absent for short periods from the work place. Assuming that the employer is not actually questioning the validity of the terms cited they will be expected to have:

1. Established that a pattern of absences exists and it that it is causing problems

2. Satisfied themselves that the problem is unlikely to get better in the long run.

3. Warned the employee the dismissal may occur if things do not improve.

Many of the same considerations exist in a long term absence cases. However, employers will in this instance be expected to secure detailed medical evidence which suggests that an early return is unlikely.

The precise time frame in which an absence will be considered unreasonable will vary from case to case depending on it effect on the work place.

In circumstances where there is a deviation in the medical evidence to both parties as to the likely date of return, the employer should seek a third opinion in advance of taking a decision to dismiss.

dunleakelleher

OMM 0000 wrote: »

That's not true. You can be fired for being sick.

"In some circumstances, where an employee has consistently been absent from work (or if through illness is no longer capable of continuing work), employment may be terminated." - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

.

Brian Crowley MEP hasn't shown up for work in 4 years.

irishgrover

dunleakelleher wrote:

Brian Crowley MEP hasn't shown up for work in 4 years.

He's probably on some long term disability gig

CeilingFly

davo10 wrote: »

Why do you do this?

If you do some research about unfair dismissal and illness, you will see that an employee can be dismissed if he/she is absent for long periods and their absence effects the running of the business. That isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Of course the employer has to be very careful, of course they have to have supporting evidence of the effect of the absence, but it can be done. 12 weeks in one year is a long time and will disrupt any business.

So, it's not easy, but it can be done, to say it is scaremongering and bull**** just illustrates that you are not informed on this.

.

I read the OP and understood the issue and in no way whatsoever does it even come close to an issue that would warrant even a threat of dismissal.

Hence a poster suggesting it was is scaremongering for no proper reason.


Maybe if you and the other poster actually read the OP's posts and understood employment law and had employees or were in a HR position, you would stop the scaremongering BS - because that is precisely what it is in relation to the OP's situation.

OMM 0000

CeilingFly wrote: »

It is NOT a means of getting rid of you - just get rid of that thought and ignore any eejit that even suggests that.

Are you able to have a conversation without insulting people?

It just makes this place toxic.

davo10

CeilingFly wrote: »

I read the OP and understood the issue and in no way whatsoever does it even come close to an issue that would warrant even a threat of dismissal.

Hence a poster suggesting it was is scaremongering for no proper reason.


Maybe if you and the other poster actually read the OP's posts and understood employment law and had employees or were in a HR position, you would stop the scaremongering BS - because that is precisely what it is in relation to the OP's situation.

Whether you or I, or any other poster believes 3 months absence in a 12 month period warrants a threat of dismissal is immaterial, we do not know what impact the absences have on th business nor how motivated the employer is to prevent the situation continuing. But your statements that it is scaremongering to suggest it is possible just shows how little you understand about this. The fact is, you can be dismissed for being repeatedly/long term absent due to illness, that is not in any way to say the op will be, it is just stating that the employer could do so.

The section I copied and pasted from the employmentrightsireland clearly explains it.

JustAThought

Davo - if they want to get rid of the poor OP they will - regardless. There are simple ways around most obstacles; unfortunately.

skooterblue2

JustAThought wrote: »

I disagree totally. You can be restructured out of a role that you are no longer wanted in due to ling periods of illness /no longer fit to do the job for which you were employed and then reatructured out of the company. Simple. Just a few procedural steps - very sorry,great worker, payment to see you on ykur way and not struggling with the mortgage while.you get a new job - then BOOM -cant pass a medical to get a new job.

OP -Im not saying you have a choice but I wouod be worried and also asking who get to see,know and discuss your medical issues etc etc

Never trust the Doctor you are not paying for ..... see Erin Brocovich

I have been on a nasty end of psychologists (from college) and a doctor (from a large MNC) that dismissed Autism as General anxiety disorder and decided not to rehire on a contract. I would complain but I have never been happier since I left the company. Beware the company doctor, you are not paying him, he does not work in your interest.