So now we have to be suicide counsellors

judeboy101

http://www.thejournal.ie/suicide-schools-4116846-Jul2018/

happywithlife

Have 2 thoughts on this
First as a teacher - we cannot be a fixer-upper for every problem in society. I see the merit in upskilling Guidance counsellors etc and as a staff member on the ground knowing what to look out for would be useful. But as a general subject teacher I will never be trained sufficiently to tackle something like this at any great depth and would be fundamentally conscious I could- in innocence/ignorance - do more harm than good.
Second as a parent- I view this as another soundbite that sounds good in theory but I think I know BS when I see it --
why not invest the money in psychiatric servives for the teens instead? Teachers can identify all they want in the classroom but where is the follow up support in the ground? Access to psychologists / psychiatrist...in-bed treatments ....etc etc
My little boy has to wait 2 years to get access to the child psychologist in our area. 2 fu@king years for a 7 year old boy who stress levels are through the roof. We know the root cause. I've been to the gp. Their medical professional opinion was he needed to be seen by a specialist...but 2 bloody years down the line. Needless to say we aren't just sitting on our asses waiting and he has gotten the help he needs and is doing so much better. On a related note his class teacher in primary school is the designated go-to person for this kind of stuff and she "has all the courses done" ....worse than useless was my experience with her. So courses and training do not equal expertise minister

evolving_doors

I can see exactly now why so many hours have been allocated to wellbeing.
It's so the minister has an out...every single time it comes up in the media "well they should be dealing with X in schools".. the answer... 'Wellbeing will solve this'

Meanwhile last Saturday.

'Linn Dara children's mental health day services in Cherry Orchard Hospital suddenly close'
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/parents-protest-linn-dara-childrens-14877357

judeboy101

I firmly believe at some point they'll make us responsible for vaccinating kids., doing the eye tests and developmental check ups.

r93kaey5p2izun

I can't believe Linn Dara closed! I know so many young people locally and from school who just would not be here without it! Unbelievable!

I don't really have a problem with training teachers in the SafeTalk programme as it's aimed at everyone and anyone and simply offers advice on how to react when the topic comes up or if someone speaks to you about being suicidal and how to watch out for people who may be at risk. I did it and found it beneficial for me and would recommend it for everyone quite apart from being a teacher.

But I absolutely agree with happywithlife that this is just another cynical exercise from the government so they can be seen to do something while actually doing nothing, and that no matter how many courses teachers do it will never be a substitute for real professional mental health support that's sorely lacking.

listermint

Why would any teacher think its a good idea to not have the skillset to detect a problem with a child.

the course is solely about detection and what to do.

I mean, if someone thinks this is not a decent idea then id question why they want to work with Kids in the first place.

I whole heartedly agree that Suicide services need vast funding upgrades and proper councillors that are trained. That is a given.

But to omit the people who speak most the children during the day from any form of professional training is ridiculous.

Im sure someone surely agrees these things are not mutually exclusive.

keoclassic

listermint wrote: »

Why would any teacher think its a good idea to not have the skillset to detect a problem with a child.

the course is solely about detection and what to do.

I mean, if someone thinks this is not a decent idea then id question why they want to work with Kids in the first place.

I whole heartedly agree that Suicide services need vast funding upgrades and proper councillors that are trained. That is a given.

But to omit the people who speak most the children during the day from any form of professional training is ridiculous.

Im sure someone surely agrees these things are not mutually exclusive.

Most secondary teachers became teachers to teach a subject that they are passionate about, and while it is very important to have an ear and eye on the mood of individuals, it is nigh on impossible to determine how a child is feeling. All any teacher can do is to try and pick up on any signs that a pupil may exhibit that may be out of character for them, bearing in mind of course that you may only see that student for 3-4periods a week.If teachers wanted to be councillors then I'm sure that they would have pursued it as a career. Sure they have a responsibility to be aware but anything more than that in reality is untangible. The dept are constantly moving the goalposts in the last few years.......the results of this....good or bad.....are yet to be seen.

km79

listermint wrote: »

Why would any teacher think its a good idea to not have the skillset to detect a problem with a child.

the course is solely about detection and what to do.

I mean, if someone thinks this is not a decent idea then id question why they want to work with Kids in the first place.

I whole heartedly agree that Suicide services need vast funding upgrades and proper councillors that are trained. That is a given.

But to omit the people who speak most the children during the day from any form of professional training is ridiculous.

Im sure someone surely agrees these things are not mutually exclusive.

I think this course should be compulsory for all parents . They see their children 12 months a year and know them better than anyone else ?

If they are not willing to do it I question why they had kids in the first place ......to omit the people who surely speak to their own children every day is ridiculous.........

Obviously I’m being sarcastic
But
Teachers are NOT mental health professionals

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

happywithlife

listermint wrote: »

Why would any teacher think its a good idea to not have the skillset to detect a problem with a child.

the course is solely about detection and what to do.

I mean, if someone thinks this is not a decent idea then id question why they want to work with Kids in the first place.

I whole heartedly agree that Suicide services need vast funding upgrades and proper councillors that are trained. That is a given.

But to omit the people who speak most the children during the day from any form of professional training is ridiculous.

Im sure someone surely agrees these things are not mutually exclusive.

No teacher here at least - myself included- said its a good idea to Not have the skillset as you describe it

I'm pointing out that there are dangers involved in this type of politics -- heaping everything onto teachers is not the solution. And I stand by that its a soundbite and what good is it if teachers CAN identify a student at risk (which we are already open to under new child protection Anyway albeit in a more general sense) if we have nowhere to refer onto because those services are overwhemled or non existant.
Another aspect I'd be wary of is government saying "well we've invested x by doing this so there are no more available funds...." funds for services that COULD actually make a more meaningful difference. They'll have ticked the box at their end so to speak. Such a policy could acfually do way more harm than good and I believe funds could be used / invested far more wisely.

gctest50

And what's the headline going to be if you fail to detect after yer little course ?

" Teacher failed to detect suicidal student who killed his siblings before killing himself "

Despite training in the detection of ..........

This has all the looks of good intentions about it - but

[ ✓] Teachers trained



They need to go fixup mental health help for young people that is easily accessible

km79

Patww79 wrote: »

In this country something like this will be for the sole purpose of having someone to hold accountable when it happens - "you were trained, it's your fault".

Parents should be getting this 'training' and it should be their responsibility first and foremost.

Absolutely this
Was warned off getting Trained as a first aider for this reason
Sad but the reality of the world we now live in

keoclassic

Patww79 wrote: »

In this country something like this will be for the sole purpose of having someone to hold accountable when it happens - "you were trained, it's your fault".

Parents should be getting this 'training' and it should be their responsibility first and foremost.

100%. Imagine if a grieving parent tackled you on such an issue.Imagine if they felt that you bore some responsibility for what happened to their child, imagine what that would do to that teacher. It is 100% not a teachers responsibility to council a child.

irishgrover

km79 wrote:

Absolutely this Was warned off getting Trained as a first aider for this reason Sad but the reality of the world we now live in

Genuine question, would you train on CPR provision, using a defib? Would you object to a defib being put in a school, or being asked to train on how to use one?

km79

irishgrover wrote: »

Genuine question, would you train on CPR provision, using a defib? Would you object to a defib being put in a school, or being asked to train on how to use one?

There is a defibrillator

happywithlife

km79 wrote: »

Absolutely this
Was warned off getting Trained as a first aider for this reason
Sad but the reality of the world we now live in

I've done 2 first aid courses. Last one was specific paeds and the guy doing it was adamant in his answer to this question that we do not have the same "good Samaritan " laws as say the U.S. and we could not be prosecuted and he was very firm in saying you do a) what you're comfortable with and b) never more than you're trained to do.

km79

happywithlife wrote: »

I've done 2 first aid courses. Last one was specific paeds and the guy doing it was adamant in his answer to this question that we do not have the same "good Samaritan " laws as say the U.S. and we could not be prosecuted and he was very firm in saying you do a) what you're comfortable with and b) never more than you're trained to do.

I too have first aid training done outside of school
But I wouldn’t be comfortable being a designated First Aider in a school as I have seen done
Probably should have made that a bit clearer

Prob gone OT now anyway

irishgrover

km79 wrote:

There is a defibrillator

And would you be happy to get training on how to use it? Ask is a genuine question, I'm not having a go at you one way or the other regardless of your view, just trying to get an understanding....

Mardy Bum

This is neoliberalism at it's finest. Fine Gael at their most vile. Close actual mental health facilities and then "train" teachers to do the job which people study years to do solely.

It could fill up some time on the PME!

TheQuietFella

My heart genuinely goes out to people in the teaching profession!

Postgrad10

Teaching is constantly changing. No longer about the teacher teaching their subject.

amacca

Postgrad10 wrote: »

Teaching is constantly changing. No longer about the teacher teaching their subject.

I wonder if that is necessarily a good thing.....this mantra of change being good..and I think people having to move with the times unquestioningly is leading to worsening quality of life for a significant portion of the population

Some of the "changes" are questionable in their intent and their effects imo

lukesmom

Teachers see students for one class a day. How in Gods name are they supposed to make an assumption based on a students mental health and mood, while attempting to teach a class of possibly 30 students? I think the onus is being passed incorectly here and the money and training needs to go to the already oversubscribed and underfunded mental health resources in place. Build more units, employ more mental health trained counsellors and staff. Forget about placing the responsibility with the teacher. What a country honestly the mind boggles at how and why these decisions are ever brought to the forefront. Its a shambles.

emilymemily

I personally think this is a really good step. Too many kids are committing suicide as a result of bullying and other issues associated with school. Theres allot of feckless parents out there, even the ones who look great from the outside can be very different behind closed doors. You never know whats going on in a childs life and that can drastically effect their education. Sometimes kids have no where else to turn. We shouldn't be expected to be counselors as thats not helpful to ourselves or the students but spotting the signs of depression and suicide can only be a good thing imo.

TomOnBoard

If this should be done, then start it in the teacher training before teachers qualify. Build on that for those teachers through continuous education later. Don't do it as a panic reaction to an apparent epidemic that is believed to be happening and just expect that teachers will act as first lines of defense, and blame them if something goes wrong. This whole area is inextricably linked with bullying and other stressors such as social media manipulation, increased adolescent anxieties and many other factors that are assaulting young peoples' lives. If the powers that be are serious then they should make child/adolescent psychology services available to the population, and not try and use teachers to plug the gaps that clearly exist in such service availability across the country.

wonski

It's a training, at no point it suggests you will do any sort of counselling or anything close to it.

You will be taught how to deal with certain situations and most importantly what not to do and what you can do.

If you received first aid training you do not become a doctor

All of those training sessions do not make you a specialist in the area and you won't be expected to do anything beyond your capabilities.

listermint

wonski wrote: »

It's a training, at no point it suggests you will do any sort of counselling or anything close to it.

You will be taught how to deal with certain situations and most importantly what not to do and what you can do.

If you received first aid training you do not become a doctor

All of those training sessions do not make you a specialist in the area and you won't be expected to do anything beyond your capabilities.

Exactly!

common sense

listermint

keoclassic wrote: »

Most secondary teachers became teachers to teach a subject that they are passionate about, and while it is very important to have an ear and eye on the mood of individuals, it is nigh on impossible to determine how a child is feeling. All any teacher can do is to try and pick up on any signs that a pupil may exhibit that may be out of character for them, bearing in mind of course that you may only see that student for 3-4periods a week.If teachers wanted to be councillors then I'm sure that they would have pursued it as a career. Sure they have a responsibility to be aware but anything more than that in reality is untangible. The dept are constantly moving the goalposts in the last few years.......the results of this....good or bad.....are yet to be seen.

Which would be the point of the training.

No one is expecting you to be a councillor.

Christ lads its not mutual exclusive i said that in the post. You dont solve problems by doing 1 thing, its collective small changes that make a large change.

This really isnt that hard to grasp.

judeboy101

wonski wrote: »

It's a training, at no point it suggests you will do any sort of counselling or anything close to it.

You will be taught how to deal with certain situations and most importantly what not to do and what you can do.

If you received first aid training you do not become a doctor

All of those training sessions do not make you a specialist in the area and you won't be expected to do anything beyond your capabilities.

5 syllables. Li-A-Bil-a-ty

r93kaey5p2izun

Is there evidence that lots of suicidal school children are going under the radar? I have to say that's the complete opposite of my experience. I have found that they are being identified left right and centre but there's nowhere to send them once they are identified. Unfortunately I have had many experiences of suicide in my life including a few in school and in every case involving teens they had been trying to get help for years but very little was available. Sure, I think the course is good for anyone who may find themselves dealing with a suicidal person but I think it will have zero impact on reducing suicides in teens and given the lack of funding it's either a foolish move or a cynical PR exercise.

lukesmom

Ashlynn Tiny Freighter wrote:

Is there evidence that lots of suicidal school children are going under the radar? I have to say that's the complete opposite of my experience. I have found that they are being identified left right and centre but there's nowhere to send them once they are identified. Unfortunately I have had many experiences of suicide in my life including a few in school and in every case involving teens they had been trying to get help for years but very little was available. Sure, I think the course is good for anyone who may find themselves dealing with a suicidal person but I think it will have zero impact on reducing suicides in teens and given the lack of funding it's either a foolish move or a cynical PR exercise.

100% correct

happywithlife

Ashlynn Tiny Freighter wrote: »

Is there evidence that lots of suicidal school children are going under the radar? I have to say that's the complete opposite of my experience. I have found that they are being identified left right and centre but there's nowhere to send them once they are identified. Unfortunately I have had many experiences of suicide in my life including a few in school and in every case involving teens they had been trying to get help for years but very little was available. Sure, I think the course is good for anyone who may find themselves dealing with a suicidal person but I think it will have zero impact on reducing suicides in teens and given the lack of funding it's either a foolish move or a cynical PR exercise.

+1

listermint

Ashlynn Tiny Freighter wrote: »

Is there evidence that lots of suicidal school children are going under the radar? I have to say that's the complete opposite of my experience. I have found that they are being identified left right and centre but there's nowhere to send them once they are identified. Unfortunately I have had many experiences of suicide in my life including a few in school and in every case involving teens they had been trying to get help for years but very little was available. Sure, I think the course is good for anyone who may find themselves dealing with a suicidal person but I think it will have zero impact on reducing suicides in teens and given the lack of funding it's either a foolish move or a cynical PR exercise.

enough said. (underlined)

as pointed to many times you all seem to think its mutually exclusive it is part of an over all picture that is needed to be implemented.

but sure look we should all just give out our own individual little pieces and do nothing at all.

Progress....

r93kaey5p2izun

listermint wrote: »

enough said. (underlined)

as pointed to many times you all seem to think its mutually exclusive it is part of an over all picture that is needed to be implemented.

but sure look we should all just give out our own individual little pieces and do nothing at all.

Progress....

Nobody thinks it's mutually exclusive. But unfortunately the funding is limited and needs to be directed to the most urgent priority areas. This is not one of them in my opinion as someone who has dealt with suicidal students and who has done the course. This is not being done in conjunction with improved services. As the link above shows it is happening while much more important supports are being removed.

irishgrover

happywithlife wrote: »

I've done 2 first aid courses. Last one was specific paeds and the guy doing it was adamant in his answer to this question that we do not have the same "good Samaritan " laws as say the U.S. and we could not be prosecuted and he was very firm in saying you do a) what you're comfortable with and b) never more than you're trained to do.

obviously different countries, different laws, but we do have the Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2011 (which is often refered to the good smaritans law) and which does explicitly protect people in said situations.

keoclassic

listermint wrote: »

Which would be the point of the training.

No one is expecting you to be a councillor.

Christ lads its not mutual exclusive i said that in the post. You dont solve problems by doing 1 thing, its collective small changes that make a large change.

This really isnt that hard to grasp.

I grasp what your saying, and if you cant see that I'm somewhat in agreement with you, then you misunderstand my post. But does a teacher need to be trained, and would they like to be put into somewhat of an accountable position........I think not. You seem to miss the point that teachers may only have contact with pupils for a total of 4 periods a week.As one other poster has stated, its parents and close family that are in the best position to assess the well being of their child/family member. There is already, or at least there used to be, a child protection officer/designated liaison person in a school for whom a teacher may contact should they have a concern for a pupils well-being, is this in your opinion not enough. Why are you trying to put teachers into a more accountable position in matters of life and death, for crying out loud, they became teachers to educate, if one was to try and assess the well-being of every student in front of you, then the only person that would need counseling is the Teacher!!! Most teachers from what i can remember that pushed this line of accountability were generally not thinking of the students welfare and more thinking of how it made them look in the eyes of parents and management. Its so much easier to tell others to be aware than for one to be aware themselves.

In summary, by all means train teachers but in no means is any accountability to placed on them in such circumstances.

listermint

keoclassic wrote: »

I grasp what your saying, and if you cant see that I'm somewhat in agreement with you, then you misunderstand my post. But does a teacher need to be trained, and would they like to be put into somewhat of an accountable position........I think not. You seem to miss the point that teachers may only have contact with pupils for a total of 4 periods a week.As one other poster has stated, its parents and close family that are in the best position to assess the well being of their child/family member. There is already, or at least there used to be, a child protection officer/designated liaison person in a school for whom a teacher may contact should they have a concern for a pupils well-being, is this in your opinion not enough. Why are you trying to put teachers into a more accountable position in matters of life and death, for crying out loud, they became teachers to educate, if one was to try and assess the well-being of every student in front of you, then the only person that would need counseling is the Teacher!!! Most teachers from what i can remember that pushed this line of accountability were generally not thinking of the students welfare and more thinking of how it made them look in the eyes of parents and management. Its so much easier to tell others to be aware than for one to be aware themselves.

In summary, by all means train teachers but in no means is any accountability to placed on them in such circumstances.

Its your opinion,

and tbh no offence a public sector wide view that if you are trained in something i.e to get a new skillset then all of a sudden that makes you accountable.

That is simply not the case in any other sector. Training is knowledge and an additional skill.

it doesnt make you a Doctor , your not suddenly a signed up councillor. Can you give examples of where you received some training in relation to your teaching role and this all of a sudden made you entirely responsible for that function.

This isnt the reality its more of the same 'its not my job' fear mongering that goes on. Very persuasive inside civil organisations.

keoclassic

It's my opinion, your right. But I am afraid to say that I disagree with yours. No offence taken, at this stage by the way, I have worked just as long in the private sector and the public, and to be honest, things aren't much different in either!!

evolving_doors

I think ill reserve opinion until I've done the course. Has anyone here done it?

I can see why teachers would have reservations though given the nature of some of these 1 day inservices.

But I'd echo the statement above that we have umpteen students 'on watch' in our schools and parents at their wits end looking for support.

I'll be keeping an ear out for when the minister starts highlighting this initiative as a panacea... and I'm sure he'll lump it in with the wellbeing too.

TheDriver

It will be interesting. In discussion with colleagues in senior management in other schools, the thoughts of how to deal with suicide including news from outside school and indeed within school has been contemplated. Very disturbing but its part of the critical incidents we can be faced with. But courses are all well and good but it's reality that's far reaching. If there's one thing that grates on my experience, it's sitting in front rooms of houses with a coffin and parents looking for answers about our past or present students. A part of the job I prefer to forget until I must face it.

byhookorbycrook

Training teachers tends to be done over a few days and then , bingo , you are “ qualified “ to solve all ills .
I’d prefer money to go into early intervention programmes and meaningful access to proper mental health services from primary up.

deiseindublin

My reading is that it will only be offered to two staff members in each school.

Mardy Bum

I think there is an innumerable amount of areas we could be trained in however time and resources are finite and therefore we must prioritise the most important areas for the profession.

I believe the most vital area is subject knowledge. This is the most important thing for any teacher however it is ignored by the department who thing generic teaching methods will be useful regardless of a teacher's inability to ask probing questions on topics.