Reskilling to IT/IS

richy

Hi there,

I have just finished a humanities undergraduate degree and I am trying to decide what my next step is. As a mature student I have already lost some years so I dont want to lose anymore so attempting to make the right decision.

Obviously the IT sector is booming and I think I would be well suited to this area but I have no skills in it. My belief in me being well suited is just a hunch though based on my personality etc. I have done very well in my undergrad but there isnt much work in the area.

I have a choice of two courses that I can do. One is a masters in UCC and one is a higher diploma in CIT.

CIT - https://springboardcourses.ie/details/6031

UCC - https://www.ucc.ie/en/ckl18/


From what I have learned from my research the UCC course is more a managerial type course with a broader overview of IS. You do use Microsoft Visio, Oracle and Microsoft Access.

The CIT one says this:

"This higher diploma introduces students to topics including statistical modelling, regression, classifiers, decision trees, databases, time series forecasting and machine learning while also providing the learner with the required technical skills in software packages and programming languages such as R, Python, Excel, SQL, NoSQL, Tableau, Spark and Hadoop."

I understand that one of them is more of an overview of IS while the CIT one is more to do with programming.

I am wondering has anyone had experience of making a big switch towards programming like the CIT one?

Where would the better paid jobs come from? The CIT or UCC one?

The UCC one has very good stats for postgrad employment and employers seem to love it. My issue is it doesnt really seem to give you any concrete skills as far as I can tell whereas the CIT one actually teaches you programming etc.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

richy

I have come across the Msc version of the higher diploma too which is also an option.

http://www.cit.ie/course/CRSDAAN9

BurnsCarpenter

I don't think the data science course is geared towards a career in programming. I did a similar hdip in cloud computing in cit. Again, there were a few modules for python, java, php. But it was just an introduction. Not enough to walk into a Dev job I would say. I got into tech support, which is booming in cork. I understand big data is a growing area but not sure what the jobs market is like...

richy

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

I don't think the data science course is geared towards a career in programming. I did a similar hdip in cloud computing in cit. Again, there were a few modules for python, java, php. But it was just an introduction. Not enough to walk into a Dev job I would say. I got into tech support, which is booming in cork. I understand big data is a growing area but not sure what the jobs market is like...

Hey thanks for your response.

The course description highlights roles as data analyst which is the same as what the UCC one advertises but it seems to be more hands on. The description for the masters does mention Big Data alright but doesnt specify what roles.

Is tech support a good area to work in? Is the pay good etc?

Do you think the CIT Hdip courses are of a good standard? Do employers seem to like it?

I am kind of worried about getting into an area that can be easily outsourced which I imagine data analysis very well could be.

Cheers again

beauf

If you look at the data analysis jobs a lot of them are now looking for a few years of business knowledge in the domain of the data being analysed. Finance, leasing, insurance, pensions etc. In most that's the core skill. The IT skills are relatively common on their own. Some look for database admin experience and some look for years of research experience. Depending on the specific role. I'm open to correction, but that's seems to be how that sector is going.

The it skills might be outsourced but the business knowledge is a lot harder to out source.

OMM 0000

Hey

Buy a programming book, and work your way through it.

Also, buy a basic networking book and read it.

If you're not willing to do this, choosing IT is a mistake.

Fr Tod Umptious

One thing to understand is that there is a hell of a lot more to IT than just programming.

There are things like
Testing
Networks
System Admin
Database administration
Techenical Support

And within IT there are a million different types of technology that one can become proficient in

Linux
Windows
Oracle
Cisco
Cloud technology
Web and app development
Virtualisation
Etc etc

In a lot of companies like banks etc with big IT departments only a tiny percentage of those are actual developers, a lot more of the staff are other IT.

So don't become totally bogged down in programming if you find it difficult to grasp.

Tom Dunne

Higher Diplomas in general are more suited to people with your background ( i.e. coming from a different discipline). I would recommend the Higher Diploma over the MSc.

BurnsCarpenter

richy wrote: »

Hey thanks for your response.

The course description highlights roles as data analyst which is the same as what the UCC one advertises but it seems to be more hands on. The description for the masters does mention Big Data alright but doesnt specify what roles.

Is tech support a good area to work in? Is the pay good etc?

Do you think the CIT Hdip courses are of a good standard? Do employers seem to like it?

I am kind of worried about getting into an area that can be easily outsourced which I imagine data analysis very well could be.

Cheers again

I enjoy it. It can be challenging and stressful at times but it's satisfying. There's plenty of room to develop.
Benefits tend to be good in Cork - healthcare, pension contributions, stock options, etc. Pay can be decent. You might need to move between companies to get the best chance of a good salary. Starting positions are around 30k probably and after a few years you should be looking at 40-50k. If you are good with 5 yrs + experience you should be looking at 60k minimum I would say.
I thought the course was good. We got a work placement at the end which was very valuable. Not sure if the data science course has the same...

cinnamony

OP, Data Science is a very mathematical field. Way more than possibly any other field in IT. It is hard to get into even witn a Masters, most people have to settle for Data Analysis roles and gain experience and possibly a PHd before becoming actual Data Scientists. Its a field in high demand because its also very difficult to get into. You need to be proficient in both statistics and computer science.
You also need an understanding of linear algebra and calculus.
Please consider the full skillset required before setting for this field.

In terms of jobs im currently working as a Data Analyst and Python developer but most "Data Analytics" roles I saw were Data clerk type jobs rather than genuine IT roles.

OMM 0000

cinnamony wrote: »

OP, Data Science is a very mathematical field. Way more than possibly any other field in IT. It is hard to get into even witn a Masters, most people have to settle for Data Analysis roles and gain experience and possibly a PHd before becoming actual Data Scientists. Its a field in high demand because its also very difficult to get into. You need to be proficient in both statistics and computer science.
You also need an understanding of linear algebra and calculus.
Please consider the full skillset required before setting for this field.

In terms of jobs im currently working as a Data Analyst and Python developer but most "Data Analytics" roles I saw were Data clerk type jobs rather than genuine IT roles.

I don't agree with this at all. I know tons of data scientists who basically taught themselves python and did a short data science course.

Source: I'm a CTO in a data science company.

cinnamony

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. I know tons of data scientists who basically taught themselves python and did a short data science course.

Source: I'm a CTO in a data science company.

Every single Data Scientist I know has an MSc or a PHd/is working towards a PHd


https://ie.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=b59f0d185dd860aa&advn=398427170005812&from=serp&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fie.indeed.com%2Fjob%2Fdata-scientist-b59f0d185dd860aa&desth=da8cb6b5d177eb3765d6a60573ceff2c&prevUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fie.indeed.com%2Fm%2Fjobs%3Fq%3DData%2Bscientist%26l%3DDublin&tk=1ci247o6j9oph8sb&dupclk=1&acatk=1ci247q8q92ooeba&pub=6917c08ec3ecf6012dd26f3773156e870cace3277f6b99df

https://ie.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=9c57089c10ca1ad5&advn=6326449156620236&from=serp&dest=http%3A%2F%2Fie.indeed.com%2Fjob%2Fdata-scientist-9c57089c10ca1ad5&desth=8de209d27aabf07ba2cd428738013011&prevUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fie.indeed.com%2Fm%2Fjobs%3Fq%3DData%2Bscientist%26l%3DDublin&tk=1ci247o6j9oph8sb&dupclk=1&acatk=1ci2498j292oo8p0&pub=6917c08ec3ecf6012dd26f3773156e870cace3277f6b99df

https://ie.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=ac26ddde709eefbb&from=serp&prevUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fie.indeed.com%2Fm%2Fjobs%3Fq%3DData%2Bscientist%26l%3DDublin

Only 3 examples but I dont wanna spam the thread with links.

OMM 0000

Did you actually look at those job descriptions?

The first one is aspirational. Look at the actual tasks. It's not a senior position.

The second one has no educational requirements and is a junior position.

The third one requires a degree but you can see from the tasks it's a junior position.

Common data science tasks are extremely straightforward and can be done by anyone with basic programming knowledge. Very few data scientists are actually inventing complex new algorithms.

As I said, I'm a CTO in a data science company, so this is a topic I know a great deal about...

Sesame

There's a shortage of analysts, both data and business analysts in Cork at the moment. I'd guess lack of places to live is a factor. Salaries are good but you'd need a good technical background or knowledge as a starting point. I work as an analyst (after only a couple of years as a developer) and it's a great career.  Not too technical, but a little of everything. A good communicator, written and verbal, would be the main criteria. 
Most business analysts work between the designers/programmers and the business users. This aspect of the job offers a great opportunity for developing working relationships with a broad range of people. Not for the mostly introverted types.

richy

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded below individually. If anyone has some recommednations about online courses/certificates I should complete that will boost my CV when looking for roles Id appreciate it. I have come across courses like six sigma but I am also wondering is there any introductory courses to coding/SAP/Salesforce or other admin systems that people would recommend. Need to be cheap/free however.

Thanks

beauf wrote: »

If you look at the data analysis jobs a lot of them are now looking for a few years of business knowledge in the domain of the data being analysed. Finance, leasing, insurance, pensions etc. In most that's the core skill. The IT skills are relatively common on their own. Some look for database admin experience and some look for years of research experience. Depending on the specific role. I'm open to correction, but that's seems to be how that sector is going.

The it skills might be outsourced but the business knowledge is a lot harder to out source.

I think you may be right. This is making me lean towards the Information Systems for Business Performance masters as it seems to be geared towards consultancy/management

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Hey

Buy a programming book, and work your way through it.

Also, buy a basic networking book and read it.

If you're not willing to do this, choosing IT is a mistake.

Is there any online courses I could look into?

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

One thing to understand is that there is a hell of a lot more to IT than just programming.

There are things like
Testing
Networks
System Admin
Database administration
Techenical Support

And within IT there are a million different types of technology that one can become proficient in

Linux
Windows
Oracle
Cisco
Cloud technology
Web and app development
Virtualisation
Etc etc

In a lot of companies like banks etc with big IT departments only a tiny percentage of those are actual developers, a lot more of the staff are other IT.

So don't become totally bogged down in programming if you find it difficult to grasp.

Thanks for this. The course deals with microsoft visio and oracle. I see lots of jobs requiring SAP/SQL. Are the skills learned with oracle etc transferable to CISCO/SAP etc?

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Higher Diplomas in general are more suited to people with your background ( i.e. coming from a different discipline). I would recommend the Higher Diploma over the MSc.

Im not eligible for springboard so I cant actually do the HDip anymore but I can do the Msc version of it. Im afraid it may be too statistical/maths based for me though due to my humanities background.

BurnsCarpenter wrote: »

I enjoy it. It can be challenging and stressful at times but it's satisfying. There's plenty of room to develop.
Benefits tend to be good in Cork - healthcare, pension contributions, stock options, etc. Pay can be decent. You might need to move between companies to get the best chance of a good salary. Starting positions are around 30k probably and after a few years you should be looking at 40-50k. If you are good with 5 yrs + experience you should be looking at 60k minimum I would say.
I thought the course was good. We got a work placement at the end which was very valuable. Not sure if the data science course has the same...

It doesnt have a work placement. I also cant do this course anyway (see comment above). I can do the masters though but I think it may be too technical or me. There are a number of jobs im applying for at the moment in the humanities area that pay 30K starting off but unsure of progression which is why I am asking. Cheers for the advice.

cinnamony wrote: »

OP, Data Science is a very mathematical field. Way more than possibly any other field in IT. It is hard to get into even witn a Masters, most people have to settle for Data Analysis roles and gain experience and possibly a PHd before becoming actual Data Scientists. Its a field in high demand because its also very difficult to get into. You need to be proficient in both statistics and computer science.
You also need an understanding of linear algebra and calculus.
Please consider the full skillset required before setting for this field.

In terms of jobs im currently working as a Data Analyst and Python developer but most "Data Analytics" roles I saw were Data clerk type jobs rather than genuine IT roles.

Thanks for the reply. From what I could aswell many of them were clerk type roles which is why I am about unsure about progression beyond that as it seems to get very technical. I think most people tend to go towards management or consultancy rather than data scientist after they work at a clerk type role for a couple of years. Any experience of this?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. I know tons of data scientists who basically taught themselves python and did a short data science course.

Source: I'm a CTO in a data science company.

Thanks for the reply. How short is a short data science course? Like one year? Or a short online course?

Sesame wrote: »

There's a shortage of analysts, both data and business analysts in Cork at the moment. I'd guess lack of places to live is a factor. Salaries are good but you'd need a good technical background or knowledge as a starting point. I work as an analyst (after only a couple of years as a developer) and it's a great career.  Not too technical, but a little of everything. A good communicator, written and verbal, would be the main criteria. 
Most business analysts work between the designers/programmers and the business users. This aspect of the job offers a great opportunity for developing working relationships with a broad range of people. Not for the mostly introverted types.

I can see the shortage alright from the amount of jobs being advertised in this area. I think business analyst is the path alright that seems to be the best option for me. I dont have a good technical background though or knowledge really of any area besides my undergraduate which is politics. I
suppose my knowledge can be built up through entry roles though.

titan18

As you don't have a technical background (or close to one), don't go near data science unless you were excellent at maths in secondary and really enjoy statistics.

Go for one of the BIS conversion course (ISBP, EBusiness) as you won't need a tech or maths based background to do ok in it and get a job. As it is, you'll be competing against graduates from the actual degree program in UCC and CIT so don't expect to get a decent job out of it straight away, especially if youre only able to stay in Cork.

richy

titan18 wrote: »

As you don't have a technical background (or close to one), don't go near data science unless you were excellent at maths in secondary and really enjoy statistics.

Go for one of the BIS conversion course (ISBP, EBusiness) as you won't need a tech or maths based background to do ok in it and get a job. As it is, you'll be competing against graduates from the actual degree program in UCC and CIT so don't expect to get a decent job out of it straight away, especially if youre only able to stay in Cork.

Thanks. I think you are right. I will try and do some programming courses myself on the side to build up skills in that area. Any recommendation of ISBP vs EBusiness? From what I can see Ebusiness has some basic programming skills and seems more practical. The ISBP seems to be loved by employers though.

When you say dont expect to get a decent job straight out of it, are you referring to the Data science course or you referring to the ISBP course? I thought you could get decent jobs from ISBP fairly easily?

Fr Tod Umptious

richy wrote: »

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded below individually. If anyone has some recommednations about online courses/certificates I should complete that will boost my CV when looking for roles Id appreciate it. I have come across courses like six sigma but I am also wondering is there any introductory courses to coding/SAP/Salesforce or other admin systems that people would recommend. Need to be cheap/free however.

Thanks

...........

Thanks for this. The course deals with microsoft visio and oracle. I see lots of jobs requiring SAP/SQL. Are the skills learned with oracle etc transferable to CISCO/SAP etc?
........

I have found myself that knowledge is pretty easyly transferable within IT.
If you are good at one application/product/decipline then it's not that difficult to learn other ones.

The IT industry involves a huge amount of products, applications and vendors, you can become proficient in one or many of them depending on the job you have and the type of company you work in.

For example at the moment I work with VMWare, Linux, Windows Servers, Cisco networks, Avaya telecoms applications, SANs etc etc

All my knowledge of these has been developed by working with them over the years, when the next product comes into our company I'll pickup that too.

So for yourself I would not worry too much about what on a certain course is transferable to another aspect of IT.

Just do the course and you'll get a job, once in the job you'll get a lot more exposure than the course can ever give you, then you'll know what you like or don't like.

But if you struggle with the course* then maybe IT is not for you.

*As mentioned before don't get hung up with the programming if you struggle with it, there is far more to IT than programming

titan18

richy wrote: »

Thanks. I think you are right. I will try and do some programming courses myself on the side to build up skills in that area. Any recommendation of ISBP vs EBusiness? From what I can see Ebusiness has some basic programming skills and seems more practical. The ISBP seems to be loved by employers though.

When you say dont expect to get a decent job straight out of it, are you referring to the Data science course or you referring to the ISBP course? I thought you could get decent jobs from ISBP fairly easily?

EBusiness would give you some programming, but not enough to get an actual job in it tbh, unless some place was really stuck. I tutored the course before in one module and it's the same content as 1st and 2nd of the undergrad BIS course.

I don't know too much on the ISBP course other than it's geared for consultancy jobs, and more business oriented.

I wouldn't be expecting to walk into a decent job from any of the courses. There's a lot of competition for jobs in the courses and from what I've seen (I work in this area), companies aren't really looking for grads, it's 3/4 years experience for roles. Getting the first job is kind of difficult tbh, especially if staying in Cork.

You've probably get 200 or so extra grads from Cork based courses each year, and most of them will have had placement through their undergrad course. It's fairly competitive for any role tbh, and very competitive for anything good.

cinnamony

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Did you actually look at those job descriptions?

The first one is aspirational. Look at the actual tasks. It's not a senior position.

The second one has no educational requirements and is a junior position.

The third one requires a degree but you can see from the tasks it's a junior position.

Common data science tasks are extremely straightforward and can be done by anyone with basic programming knowledge. Very few data scientists are actually inventing complex new algorithms.

As I said, I'm a CTO in a data science company, so this is a topic I know a great deal about...

Your claim was that you can get a job in Data Science with a 'short' course. The links that i sent you clearly state educational requirement as the following:

1:MSc or PHd
2:University degree in Stats, Maths, Data Sci, Comp Sci or Econ and 2-4 years experience
3:Degree in same fields as above and 4+ years experience

I graduated last year with a postgrad in Data Science, there were people in my course with Masters in Maths, Stats and Engineering who still struggled to find work in the field. Especially outside of Dublin. I only managed to get a job because I moved here and never once did I see a company with an educational requirement below third level.

Just because you're CTO of ONE company doesnt mean you know everything about what other companies are looking for. As a recent grad I had to deal with filling in tons of job applications and interviews and even considered emigrating. So I know what I'm talking about...

Depending on how long you've been in the field things may have just changed. Practically all universities now offer Hdips in Data Science thus likely increasing the amount of people with third level degrees in the field which may have tightened requirements. This is only a recent change too..

richy wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. From what I could aswell many of them were clerk type roles which is why I am about unsure about progression beyond that as it seems to get very technical. I think most people tend to go towards management or consultancy rather than data scientist after they work at a clerk type role for a couple of years. Any experience of this?



Thanks for the reply. How short is a short data science course? Like one year? Or a short online course?

In clerk roles not only will you not be developing technical and mathematical skills but you will lose whatever you gained through doing the course. Senior level positions typically require a few years experience in the field, the only people I know who have moved into data science from other positions were statisticians, software developers, computer engineers etc.

That said I wouldnt completely put off this field but as others have also stated be prepared to be required to develop strong skills in both IT and Maths

beauf

I think when you see data role ranging from 30k ~ 100k that we can assume there is a wide range of job roles and skillsets in play.

Gavin "shels"

richy wrote: »

Is tech support a good area to work in? Is the pay good etc?

It's an OK starting point to gain knowledge, etc... Tech Support was my first job out of college with a Level 7 in Computing from IT Tallaght - salary was €25k, gained my basis skills and working environment knowledge and progressed onto another two companies since then and a good jump in wages to where I am now (4.5 years experience)

richy wrote: »

Is there any online courses I could look into?

Look into Udemy and the likes for start courses maybe?

richy

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I have found myself that knowledge is pretty easyly transferable within IT.
If you are good at one application/product/decipline then it's not that difficult to learn other ones.

The IT industry involves a huge amount of products, applications and vendors, you can become proficient in one or many of them depending on the job you have and the type of company you work in.

For example at the moment I work with VMWare, Linux, Windows Servers, Cisco networks, Avaya telecoms applications, SANs etc etc

All my knowledge of these has been developed by working with them over the years, when the next product comes into our company I'll pickup that too.

So for yourself I would not worry too much about what on a certain course is transferable to another aspect of IT.

Just do the course and you'll get a job, once in the job you'll get a lot more exposure than the course can ever give you, then you'll know what you like or don't like.

But if you struggle with the course* then maybe IT is not for you.

*As mentioned before don't get hung up with the programming if you struggle with it, there is far more to IT than programming

I havent even attempted programming yet tbh bar some minor stuff with excel during my placement (basically googled how to do x,y,z and copied and pasted the text. A friend who is studying computer science said thats what most people do but I did enjoy what little "coding" I did).

I will start some udemy courses though to get some basic knowledge before I start the masters.

titan18 wrote: »

EBusiness would give you some programming, but not enough to get an actual job in it tbh, unless some place was really stuck. I tutored the course before in one module and it's the same content as 1st and 2nd of the undergrad BIS course.

I don't know too much on the ISBP course other than it's geared for consultancy jobs, and more business oriented.

I wouldn't be expecting to walk into a decent job from any of the courses. There's a lot of competition for jobs in the courses and from what I've seen (I work in this area), companies aren't really looking for grads, it's 3/4 years experience for roles. Getting the first job is kind of difficult tbh, especially if staying in Cork.

You've probably get 200 or so extra grads from Cork based courses each year, and most of them will have had placement through their undergrad course. It's fairly competitive for any role tbh, and very competitive for anything good.

Thanks for this. I have talked to a current student and he said the jobs opportunity is very good. He got a job (albeit 9 month contract) with a huge MNC in the drinks industry bat 35K before hes even finished his MSc and he has the same undergraduate degree as me so Im hopeful of at least gaining entry level work. Again, its probably more a data clerk role though.

Gavin shels wrote: »

It's an OK starting point to gain knowledge, etc... Tech Support was my first job out of college with a Level 7 in Computing from IT Tallaght - salary was €25k, gained my basis skills and working environment knowledge and progressed onto another two companies since then and a good jump in wages to where I am now (4.5 years experience)



Look into Udemy and the likes for start courses maybe?

Thanks again for the reply. I discovered Udemy last night :-D