What happens if dealer can't fix car?

Blue Badger

Hi,
I bought a near new car from a dealer and it is well within warranty. At the moment it has persistent electrical issues despite only 30,000ish kms on the clock. They tried fixing already but problems came back right away and are worse; they're trying again soon.
My question is what happens if they can't locate the problem and this continues on? Yes, it's early days but I'm curious and want to know my rights.
The car clearly wouldn't be as it should though would they only be obliged to keep trying under warranty? Would there be an obligation to trade like-for-like? Something else? 
Any feedback much appreciated, just want to know the lay of the land.

Cheers

Hitman3000

Blue Badger wrote:

Hi, I bought a near new car from a dealer and it is well within warranty. At the moment it has persistent electrical issues despite only 30,000ish kms on the clock. They tried fixing already but problems came back right away and are worse; they're trying again soon. My question is what happens if they can't locate the problem and this continues on? Yes, it's early days but I'm curious and want to know my rights. The car clearly wouldn't be as it should though would they only be obliged to keep trying under warranty? Would there be an obligation to trade like-for-like? Something else? Any feedback much appreciated, just want to know the lay of the land.

Consumer law applies. 'Merchandise must be of mercantile quality and fit for purpose'. It may by awkward but you are entitled to a refund under the law once the car falls into the above.

Toyotafanboi

It's usually a fairly exceptional circumstance that a car will be refunded or replaced, but it does happen, however usually the issues would have to be serious and/ or safety related, usually.

What is the nature of the fault, as in what is happening when it fails? Are the heated seats not working or is the engine shutting down? Both could be electrical issues but one is far more serious an issue.

Has the failure been the same cause more than once? As in has your engine shut down twice due to the ECU failing twice or has your heated rear window stopped once and now your radio doesn't work?

The rule of thumb is no more than three attempts to repair the same defect is usually acceptable and at that it will also vary by the seriousness of the defect. Give us a bit more info.

Hitman3000

Toyotafanboi wrote:

It's usually a fairly exceptional circumstance that a car will be refunded or replaced, but it does happen, however usually the issues would have to be serious and/ or safety related, usually.

My father bought a new car in 00, persistent issues for over 6 months car spent more time on a lift than the road. Lots of aggro getting his rights but in the end the car was replaced with no cost to him.. The garage in question seemed to think that a car was not a consumer product and not covered by the law.

EPAndlee

I remember we had a car in a few years ago with electrical problems anytime it was fixed it broke again eventually the car was sent back to the manufacturer. If I remember right the customer got another car and it was happy days

JimiTime

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Consumer law applies. 'Merchandise must be of mercantile quality and fit for purpose'. It may by awkward but you are entitled to a refund under the law once the car falls into the above.

Does that apply to second hand/used stuff? I've heard of lots of dealership horror stories and they point blank refuse refund. is it a case where they do so hoping the customer wont go legal? Or do they know that they are covered in some way?

Toyotafanboi

It's a case of what makes a car "fit for purpose". Once it starts, moves and stops in a safe manner it's fit for purpose.

Blue Badger

Thanks Toyotafanboi, most of the faults aren't serious as such (tyre pressure sensors, pinging noise from dashboard, parking sensors failing). It's moreso one in particular that I'd be worried about as it's the EPC warning light.

From checking up online/in the owner's booklet, the EPC light can represent quite a few things from relatively benign to serious. Nothing has been found wrong with the engine though I'm worried that the EPC could come on when there is something serious without me knowing. It comes on very frequently atm.

Toyotafanboi

How many times have they looked at the EPC light now, twice?

Del2005

JimiTime wrote: »

Does that apply to second hand/used stuff? I've heard of lots of dealership horror stories and they point blank refuse refund. is it a case where they do so hoping the customer wont go legal? Or do they know that they are covered in some way?

Yes it applies to 2nd hand as well as new. The rights are slightly less when buying 2nd hand but still extremely strong.

Del2005

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

It's a case of what makes a car "fit for purpose". Once it starts, moves and stops in a safe manner it's fit for purpose.

Fit for purpose is that everything that it's supposed to do it does. So the electric windows not working in a car advertised as having electric windows means the car isn't fit for purpose.

Toyotafanboi

Del2005 wrote: »

Fit for purpose is that everything that it's supposed to do it does. So the electric windows not working in a car advertised as having electric windows means the car isn't fit for purpose.

I know we've clashed on this a few times but the OP buys a car, the "purpose" of a car is to transport you around. A glitch with the TPMS or a dash rattle is absolutely not making that car unfit for the purpose of transporting you.

The EPC light I would argue is as the engine is an integral part of enabling the car to fulfil its purpose. Even at that though, you must be reasonable in your expectation, if you've had a car for 12 or 24 months and put 30k kms of wear and tear on it, a repair is a suitable means of reconciliation. You could hardly expect to walk away from the car and be placed straight into a brand new car for the likes of a check engine light, unless the issue proves to be terminal or cannot be repaired within a reasonable timeframe/ number of attempts.

I would say personally at least, that two, is still a reasonable number of attempts.

Hitman3000

Toyotafanboi wrote:

It's a case of what makes a car "fit for purpose". Once it starts, moves and stops in a safe manner it's fit for purpose.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the specifics of the consumer act. The act covers the product as a whole not just areas a seller wishes to define.

grogi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

It's a case of what makes a car "fit for purpose". Once it starts, moves and stops in a safe manner it's fit for purpose.

But it is not of mercantile quality. It is absolutely reasonable to assume a car equipped with heated and massage seats will have them working as desired.

Otherwise the dealers would sell basic specification cars for top-range price and say - sorry, that's not essential for the car, it's still fit for purpose.

Hitman3000

JimiTime wrote:

Does that apply to second hand/used stuff? I've heard of lots of dealership horror stories and they point blank refuse refund. is it a case where they do so hoping the customer wont go legal? Or do they know that they are covered in some way?

The protection is not as strong on a second hand product but protection still exists. The garage basically thinks telling you to p*ss off is acceptable and reasonable ie chancing their arm. Citizens advice is the best place to go when a seller refuses to engage. Then depending on value the small claims court.

rock22

Hitman3000 wrote: »

The protection is not as strong on a second hand product but protection still exists. The garage basically thinks telling you to p*ss off is acceptable and reasonable ie chancing their arm. Citizens advice is the best place to go when a seller refuses to engage. Then depending on value the small claims court.

Where did the OP state that the seller is not engaging or telling the OP to p*ss off?


The rights are much more nuanced in a complicated product like a car. A car would not be replaced because the ash tray won't work for example.


Unless the OP is more specific on what exactly is not working, the frequency of faults and the remedies tried then any replies here are only guess work

Hitman3000

rock22 wrote:

Where did the OP state that the seller is not engaging or telling the OP to p*ss off?

If you took the time to see whom I was replying to you would know it wasn't the OP......

Toyotafanboi

grogi wrote: »

But it is not of mercantile quality. It is absolutely reasonable to assume a car equipped with heated and massage seats will have them working as desired.

Otherwise the dealers would sell basic specification cars for top-range price and say - sorry, that's not essential for the car, it's still fit for purpose.

Yeah, I know what you mean, it's not what I'm getting at though.

If the heated seats break in your two year old car, you can't reasonably jump to "sale of goods act, unfit for purpose, new car please".

A repair is acceptable recourse in that case. If the first repair doesn't work, another attempt is surely still fair, just encase. Only after multiple attempts have failed should refund/ replacement really be considered on the case of a car that has been extensively used.

rex-x

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

The rule of thumb is no more than three attempts to repair the same defect is usually acceptable and at that it will also vary by the seriousness of the defect. Give us a bit more info.

Legally there is only one attempt allowed at a repair. The three attempts thing is something spouted by the poorly educated/chancers (garages, phone companies etc seem the biggest offenders generally). Technically no matter how minor the fault is if the first repair is not successful a refund or replacement is required. There is no second attempt allowed for in law but in practise its very hard to invoke the right to a replacement car without going the legal route