Electric Gates Comms cable

KaneToad

Hi all, looking for some guidance.

I'm helping someone, who has bought a house in rural Tipp, to get their gates electrified/automated. I will be getting an installer in for the job but want to make sure that as much of the ground work is done in advance to keep the costs down.

There is a live SWA terminating at the gate pillars so that is no prob for power. There is also another cable terminating there - to my novice eyes, its a 5 pair cable. Some googling tells me that it is a 5 pair poly poly cable.

This cable runs back up into the attic space and terminates (abruptly!) there. The house owner wants to use this cable to connect an audio (not video) intercom to her gate and open the gate from her kitchen.

How do I go about extending this cable to terminate in her kitchen ?
Is it just a case of getting 5 of those gel filled connector crimps and attaching them to each of the pairs in the attic cable?
If so what cable should I buy to use as the extension cable ?

I'm bamboozled by all the cable types/names, Cat5, Cat6, telephone cable, 4 pair, 5 pair Are some of these the same things?

Thanks for help

TLDR: what cable needed to extend 5 pair poly poly for intercom/gate opening

kub

Hi OP, for any external low voltage cable runs either use a Poly / Poly or External Cat 5, obviously it needs to be contained in either ducting, conduit or trunking.


For any internal cable runs, eg between the kitchen and attic, you can use the afore mentioned or ordinary Cat 5/ 6, or any internal cable, i would recommend at least an 8 core cable.


With regard to the gate itself, is it a sliding gate or a pair of swinging ones and are you ok with regard what goes where out there?

Sorry, Cat 5/ 6 is what is known as data cable, it is used primarily for interconnecting computer networks etc, there are 8 single cable cores in each and they are in pairs, hence the term 4 pair.
Poly/ Poly is used primarily for telephone networks, again for external cable runs, it is a lot more resistant to weather than ordinary Cat 5/6.
External Cat 5/6 is basically the same as its internal counterpart but has a much tougher and weather resistant covering.

KaneToad

kub wrote: »

Hi OP, for any external low voltage cable runs either use a Poly / Poly or External Cat 5, obviously it needs to be contained in either ducting, conduit or trunking.

Thanks for such a detailed response kub. The 5 pair poly / poly was already laid by previous owner. I had a look at it near where it appears at the gate and it seems to emerge from a wavin type pipe, so that seems positive.

kub wrote: »

For any internal cable runs, eg between the kitchen and attic, you can use the afore mentioned or ordinary Cat 5/ 6, or any internal cable, i would recommend at least an 8 core cable.

Given that the 5 pair poly/poly is already there in the attic. Would I be able to connect an 8 core cable to it?? I assumed that I'd be using something like these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Way-Gel-Filled-Connector-Crimps/dp/B007FGX3TW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1530132936&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=gel+cable+connectors&dpPl=1&dpID=41QVX2wUQiL&ref=plSrch

to connect each of the pairs of the existing poly/poly 5 pair cable to my "extension" internal cable. (The existing poly/poly ends in the attic, it won't stretch to the kitchen.) Can I connect the poly/poly 5 pair to an 8 core cable?? I assumed I would have to connect existing 5 pair poly/poly to internal 5 pair cable. Does Cat5 mean 5 core??

kub wrote: »

With regard to the gate itself, is it a sliding gate or a pair of swinging ones and are you ok with regard what goes where out there?

She is getting swinging gates but I won't be the one doing any of the difficult work. I'll leave that to the pro! I'm just trying to make sure all the donkey work with the cable runs is done for her.

kub wrote: »

Sorry, Cat 5/ 6 is what is known as data cable, it is used primarily for interconnecting computer networks etc, there are 8 single cable cores in each and they are in pairs, hence the term 4 pair.
Poly/ Poly is used primarily for telephone networks, again for external cable runs, it is a lot more resistant to weather than ordinary Cat 5/6.
External Cat 5/6 is basically the same as its internal counterpart but has a much tougher and weather resistant covering.

Ah, that makes a bit more sense. Ignore my earlier point! So Cat5/6 both have 8 cores and are 4 pair.

Does that mean my 5 pair poly/poly has 10 cores? I'm surmising then that I can connect 4 of the 5 pairs in my poly/poly with gel crimper yokes to 4 of the pairs in my 8 core cable (which I need to buy). I'll then run 8 core cable to kitchen area and use however many cores required to connect to intercom handset.

I think....

kub

KaneToad wrote: »

Given that the 5 pair poly/poly is already there in the attic. Would I be able to connect an 8 core cable to it?? I assumed that I'd be using something like these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Way-Gel-Filled-Connector-Crimps/dp/B007FGX3TW/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1530132936&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=gel+cable+connectors&dpPl=1&dpID=41QVX2wUQiL&ref=plSrch

to connect each of the pairs of the existing poly/poly 5 pair cable to my "extension" internal cable. (The existing poly/poly ends in the attic, it won't stretch to the kitchen.) Can I connect the poly/poly 5 pair to an 8 core cable?? I assumed I would have to connect existing 5 pair poly/poly to internal 5 pair cable.

Those connectors are perfect for the task.
Just watch the poly/poly, the cores are in pairs but the twists for each pair are certainly not as tight as on a Cat 5 type cable

KaneToad wrote: »

She is getting swinging gates but I won't be the one doing any of the difficult work. I'll leave that to the pro! I'm just trying to make sure all the donkey work with the cable runs is done for her.

Are the ground works out at the gate complete, just the motors and photocells etc on either side need to be wired or catered for.

KaneToad wrote: »

Does that mean my 5 pair poly/poly has 10 cores? I'm surmising then that I can connect 4 of the 5 pairs in my poly/poly with gel crimper yokes to 4 of the pairs in my 8 core cable (which I need to buy). I'll then run 8 core cable to kitchen area and use however many cores required to connect to intercom handset.

I think....

Yes a 5 pair poly poly does indeed have 10 cores and you are correct with regard to connections etc. I would recommend that you take a photo of the junction when complete so that you can recall what core is connected to what core etc.
The 8 cores at the Intercom will allow for the communications of the actual intercom any switching to open the gates or indeed to keep the gate constantly in the open position.

KaneToad

kub wrote: »

Those connectors are perfect for the task.
Just watch the poly/poly, the cores are in pairs but the twists for each pair are certainly not as tight as on a Cat 5 type cable

Will do. Thanks for the tip.

kub wrote: »

Are the ground works out at the gate complete, just the motors and photocells etc on either side need to be wired or catered for.

Almost. I need to lay some cable between the pillars to ensure both motors have power (I think!). I have a bit of swa, which is will do the job. Although I assume "normal" 3 core would be ok as it's going under a driveway? The existing drive is already tarmac so I want to leave this job till last. It looks like only a few mm of tarmac so hopefully it won't be too tricky!

kub wrote: »

Yes a 5 pair poly poly does indeed have 10 cores and you are correct with regard to connections etc. I would recommend that you take a photo of the junction when complete so that you can recall what core is connected to what core etc.
The 8 cores at the Intercom will allow for the communications of the actual intercom any switching to open the gates or indeed to keep the gate constantly in the open position.

Good idea about the photo, I would never have thought of that! It will definitely come in handy.

kub

KaneToad wrote: »

Almost. I need to lay some cable between the pillars to ensure both motors have power (I think!). I have a bit of swa, which is will do the job. Although I assume "normal" 3 core would be ok as it's going under a driveway? The existing drive is already tarmac so I want to leave this job till last. It looks like only a few mm of tarmac so hopefully it won't be too tricky!

Easy with that assumption, if the gate motors are normal 220 volt ones you will actually need to lay 4 core SWA between the motors and the Gate Control Unit.
You need 2 Phases, 1 Neutral and 1 Earth.
The Motors only have power when the Controller sends it to them upon activation of an opening/ closing instruction, whether automatically from a safety device or switched by a user.

KaneToad

kub wrote: »

Easy with that assumption, if the gate motors are normal 220 volt ones you will actually need to lay 4 core SWA between the motors and the Gate Control Unit.
You need 2 Phases, 1 Neutral and 1 Earth.
The Motors only have power when the Controller sends it to them upon activation of an opening/ closing instruction, whether automatically from a safety device or switched by a user.

Thanks for the heads up!

kub

KaneToad wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up!

Just as well, imagine the hassle afterwards .


You are most welcome, if you have any other questions you know where we are.

KaneToad

OP here again, looking for assistance.

This project took a bit of a hiatus, due to the hot weather and even hotter attic spaces!

Attached are pics of the cables that I'm now faced with.

The poly poly 5 pair (10 core) cable is as per the first pic.
The internal 4 pair (8 core) cable is as per the second pic.
And the cable joiner things are the final pic.

Once again I'm confused. I was expecting that the poly poly cores would have been twisted i.e. each of the coloured cores would have a white core twisted with it - so I would know, at the other [gate] end, which twisted pair is 'live'.

I thought that all(!) I would have to do was:
1) take a twisted pair from poly poly 5 pair
2) insert into one side of cable joiner thingy
3) take a twisted pair from internal 4 pair
4) insert into other side of cable joiner thingy
5) crimp to connect/seal
6) repeat for remaining 3 twisted pairs of the 4 pair internal cable
7) leave extra twisted pair from 5 pair poly poly unconnected (as it has no corresponding twisted pair on the 4 pair internal cable)
8) TAKE A PHOTO OF ALL CONNECTIONS OF JOINS

But this non-twisted scenario with the poly poly has me stumped. Can I use a battery or something to send a small charge down the cable ? And then test for same at the other [gate] end ?

Or is there something very obvious that I'm missing!

kub

KaneToad wrote: »

OP here again, looking for assistance.

This project took a bit of a hiatus, due to the hot weather and even hotter attic spaces!

Attached are pics of the cables that I'm now faced with.

The poly poly 5 pair (10 core) cable is as per the first pic.
The internal 4 pair (8 core) cable is as per the second pic.
And the cable joiner things are the final pic.

Once again I'm confused. I was expecting that the poly poly cores would have been twisted i.e. each of the coloured cores would have a white core twisted with it - so I would know, at the other [gate] end, which twisted pair is 'live'.

I thought that all(!) I would have to do was:
1) take a twisted pair from poly poly 5 pair
2) insert into one side of cable joiner thingy
3) take a twisted pair from internal 4 pair
4) insert into other side of cable joiner thingy
5) crimp to connect/seal
6) repeat for remaining 3 twisted pairs of the 4 pair internal cable
7) leave extra twisted pair from 5 pair poly poly unconnected (as it has no corresponding twisted pair on the 4 pair internal cable)
8) TAKE A PHOTO OF ALL CONNECTIONS OF JOINS

But this non-twisted scenario with the poly poly has me stumped. Can I use a battery or something to send a small charge down the cable ? And then test for same at the other [gate] end ?

Or is there something very obvious that I'm missing!

Hi OP, Bare the Poly Poly back at least 6 inches, the cores are in pairs, you have a colour and a white twisted together.
They are twisted together but not as intensely as the Cat 5 cable which you have shown.
Those connectors are correct, a single core from the poly poly goes in one side on its own and a corresponding core from the Cat 5 goes in the other side.

KaneToad

OP here again.

In case anyone follows this thread in the future and for the sake of closure. I followed all of kub's advice and successfully completed the job. The poly poly twists were indeed very 'loose'. Once I stripped back the cable I was able to ascertain the twisted pairs. They all connected up relatively easily using those gel connectors.

I've yet to install handset etc... so I can't definitively say that all is working! I'll report back again at a later date.

KaneToad

Not sure if I should post here or start a new thread?

What is the most cost effective way to maintain a SIM card in a GSM gate opening unit?

Are some network providers better than others ?

I've googled this but some of the information seems quite dated - has anyone investigated this more recently?


Thanks in advance.

KaneToad

KaneToad wrote: »

OP here again.

In case anyone follows this thread in the future and for the sake of closure. I followed all of kub's advice and successfully completed the job. The poly poly twists were indeed very 'loose'. Once I stripped back the cable I was able to ascertain the twisted pairs. They all connected up relatively easily using those gel connectors.

I've yet to install handset etc... so I can't definitively say that all is working! I'll report back again at a later date.

OP here with final update. As I'd hoped all the steps I took, with the assistance of advice in this thread, was correct. The gates were installed and all intercoms/GSM openers etc are working perfectly.

A Vodafone SIM was got, in the end. It has to be topped up by a €5 every 6 months to keep it active. You need to go online and opt out of all Vodafone text ads/promo messages too.

Job done. Thanks for all the advice.

/thread