Federation Expansion Strategy

Indricotherium

Time and time again we see the Federation use the following strategy:

• Bungle a first contact
• Fight a short exploratory war, gauge the strenght of the enemy
• engineer a peace treaty - selling out their own soldiers / civilians if necessary
• play the waiting game until some natural disaster strikes the enemy, or Fed tech reaches the point that a war is not losable
• annihilate the other race using technology / covertly maneuver the other race into a disastrous war that leaves them crippled

They've done this with the Cardassians, the Borg, and the Dominion in the prime timeline. They tried it with the Klingons but were stopped by Kirk and co going rogue and revealing the intrigue.

They done it to the romulans by way of 'accidentally' destroying a star in the JJ Abrahms timeline.

Of course there are other tactics used to achieve this strategy, travel 20 years back in time and use advanced tech to annihilate a largely benevolent collective and so on.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

pixelburp

I think the only thing the bungled First Contact proves is that lazy Trek scriptwriters love going to that same well over & over again; surely those contrived once-offs don't negate the presumably dozens - hundreds? - of first contacts that went fine, the planet perhaps eventually joining the Federation once it hits the right milestones?

Plus I don't think the Borg are a fair comparison here, given there was no diplomacy possible - that's kinda the point of that race after all.

Indricotherium

pixelburp wrote: »

Plus I don't think the Borg are a fair comparison here, given there was no diplomacy possible - that's kinda the point of that race after all.

The Borg have been seen to be able make treaties and make common cause with the Federation.

When they attempted it the Federation reneged on their commitment, murdered several members of the collective by exposing them to space, kidnapped and brainwashed another member of the collective.

I'm struggling to come up with a Federation treaty that doesn't end with betrayal, war, and annihilation.

pixelburp

I think any arrangements made with the Borg were real 'enemy of my enemy' territory. The Borg are inherently inimical towards organic, sapient life; obviously written as a warped inversion of the Federation itself, I really don't hold anything against the Federation shooting to kill in this instance, the borg are a pox on the galaxy itself.

Evade

I actually think Federation expansion is more like the way the Tau sometimes do it to human worlds in 40k. They trade superior goods and are generally just helpful. Then they slowly introduce the idea that maybe the planet would be better off as part of the Tau Empire and once they are the local culture is subsumed then replaced by the Tau's "Greater Good" philosophy and the move on to the next recipient of their generosity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREQGl54BU8

pixelburp

It remains a great scene, just a little ruined by the '... just like the Federation' remarks. The metaphor was right there, it wasn't subtle and those extra lines always take the shine off a tad.

I dunno, one thing Trek has always lacked is a sophistication in portraying its alien races, many of whom boiling down to mono-cultures or pseudo cults based off excesses of humanity's own psyche: the greedy Ferenghi; the scheming Cardassians; the warlike Klingons etc etc. And that's absolutely fine, it's just a bit disingenuous to take shots at the Federation when, within canon, they're designed as the most overtly welcoming and respectful of other cultures. Only when it has interfered with basic duties as Starfleet officers have Nog nor Worf had to park their cultural ways, otherwise are left as is.

Inviere

Indricotherium wrote: »

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Absolute scutter, as always.

Sad Professor

I can never quite reconcile the idea of having territory and borders in space with the fact that the Enterprise just flies all over the place, supposedly exploring, without any consideration for the fact that it might be impinging on the territory of some undiscovered species and inadvertently start a war.

Evade

Sad Professor wrote: »

I can never quite reconcile the idea of having territory and borders in space with the fact that the Enterprise just flies all over the place, supposedly exploring, without any consideration for the fact that it might be impinging on the territory of some undiscovered species and inadvertently start a war.

I suppose part of what makes a border is marking it.

Indricotherium

Sad Professor wrote: »

I can never quite reconcile the idea of having territory and borders in space with the fact that the Enterprise just flies all over the place, supposedly exploring, without any consideration for the fact that it might be impinging on the territory of some undiscovered species and inadvertently start a war.

They're like Spain and Portugal in the 15th / 16th Century.

The scramble for the gamma quadrant.

TheValeyard

Makes no sense.

First contact has gone well in hundreds if not thousands of cases. Federation territory expands are it offers its members, strength, security, resources, open travel, technology and acceptance. Its a pretty hard offer to refuse.

The analogy with the Borg doesn't really apply. The Borg assimilate and consume. They only negotiate for as long as it suits their needs then will break any agreement to assimilate anything worthwhile.

Same for the Dominion. Federation would not start a war to begin Gamma Quad expansion. Look at the state of the Federation after the Dominion war. Its shattered, fleets are exhausted or in ruins, resources stretched to the limits, hundreds of millions dead, key worlds were occupied and presumably damaged.

Inviere

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Makes no sense.

First contact has gone well in hundreds if not thousands of cases. Federation territory expands are it offers its members, strength, security, resources, open travel, technology and acceptance. Its a pretty hard offer to refuse.

The analogy with the Borg doesn't really apply. The Borg assimilate and consume. They only negotiate for as long as it suits their needs then will break any agreement to assimilate anything worthwhile.

Same for the Dominion. Federation would not start a war to begin Gamma Quad expansion. Look at the state of the Federation after the Dominion war. Its shattered, fleets are exhausted or in ruins, resources stretched to the limits, hundreds of millions dead, key worlds were occupied and presumably damaged.

Don't waste your breath, it's all be said before, many many times in fact. It's either an attempt to wind people up, or else it's an ongoing effort to look 'edgy' by the OP. The facts are, the OP's points are usually always lacking important context, twisted beyond belief to suit the agenda, and the odd example that's remotely debatable is usually able to be counteracted with contrary evidence.

The Bullshit Asymmetry Principle is something I closely associate with the OP, so will be bowing out at this point.

"The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."