Called close friend out on being selfish; now they're not talking to me

turnikett1

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So to make a long story short, I have been really close friends with this guy for about 8 years. Throughout those 8 years he has been a selfish motherf***er, and it's something that everyone can see. At first it didn't really bother me, his positives outweighed his selfishness, and I thought he'd grow out of it over time.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But about 2 years ago his unchanging selfishness really started to grate me, started to chip away at me and made me seethe in secret. It was building up inside me and I found myself being ever so slightly less inclined to hang out with him each time he did something selfish (which is often). But basically, about one month ago he did some very selfish and hurt me, my girlfriend, her pet and her housemate in the process. I decided I've absolutely had it with his selfish bullsh*t, because I really have, and I told him straight up that he if he continues to be selfish then I don't want to be friends with him anymore.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Now, I said this through email. I live on the other side of the world at the moment and have done since April. At the time I didn't want to talk about this over the phone because I was stressing about job related stuff that was going on the day after, and since he's always been so self-absorbed I told myself it's my turn to be selfish and I want to send him an email and not have some drawn out conversation on the phone. Anyways I sent him an email and he was deeply hurt by this revelation. He called a mutual friend of ours, who is close to both of us, and that mutual friend agreed with me (as I say, if you know this guy it's impossible to not know him as selfish) and gave him plenty of examples of him being selfish. My mutual friend said that he said that he was remorseful and wanted to change, and wanted to know how. The next day I sent him an email giving him lots of examples of him being selfish, in order to help him. In both of the emails I sent I highlighted the fact that I genuinely do want to stay friends with him, because he has lots of good qualities and he's a really good friend of mine, but his selfishness was getting out of hand. I sent him one last email a few days afterwards, which consisted of me solely telling him about his positive qualities and why I've loved him as a friend despite his selfish crap for the past 8 years.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The thing is he hasn't really talked to me once since all of this happened. He didn't reply to any of the emails which is fair enough, but after 2 weeks passed I sent him a text asking how is he getting on, to which replied "Good, talk to you soon". Another 2 weeks passed and I told him can he at least tell me if he wants to stay friends, because it doesn't feel like that, to which he said "I'm sure we'll stay friends, talk to you soon". This is kind of annoying me, because he's happy to talk that mutual friend of ours, despite the fact he also called him selfish and gave him examples. It's been a month since this happened and he hasn't shown any willingness to talk or has even said sorry for anything. I get that it hurts to hear something like that from a close friend but at the same time you have to man up; it hurts to be continually ignored like this and the way I see it, it's not just about him being hurt and him not wanting to talk - there's also how I feel, how this affects me. I hope this doesn't turn into a situation where he doesn't feel comfortable talking to me and is unsure about wanting to be my friend because that's not what it's about. It's about him being a selfish asshole for 8 years straight and US (his friends) wanting to change that.[/font]


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I don't know I'm gonna stop it there lest I keep ranting but do I have a right to feel aggrieved? I want to just chat about this and get it over and done with and continue being friends. If he's happy to change, which he apparently is, then I'm happy to move on. But the continued silence and dismissals of my attempts to talk are hurting me and I feel like he owes it to me to talk. What do you think? I just want this "issue" to be over and us to be friends again. As I say I understand it's hurtful to be called out like this, I've been there myself but I know it was for the better. I don't like him talking to our mutual friend but not me, I don't get why I'm sort of bogeyman. Anyone care to share some insight? I just want to re-iterate, though I'm sure it's obvious, I really do want to stay friends with this person. He has been mind-blowingly selfish and it has hurt me and p1ssed me off big time many times, but despite that he has lots of good qualities and I have a plethora of happy memories with him. I want him and all those good memories minus the selfish attitude - is that so much to ask for?[/font]

Ursus Horribilis

Sorry but I think you handled this in just about the worst way possible. If you felt you absolutely had to say something to your friend, you should have done it face to face. Not over email. Here's a little bit of advice for you: next time you have to broach a personal matter or a disagreement with someone, don't use texts or emails. They're grand for many things but they're dreadful when it comes to nuances.

I can see why this guy doesn't want to talk to you. Not only did you send these emails, which he can read again and again and continue to be hurt by. You also dragged a mutual friend into this. If I was in his shoes, I'd not want to talk to you again either.

You have probably ruined this friendship. Perhaps in time he might talk to you again but I doubt very much if the friendship can ever return to what it was.

turnikett1

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Sorry but I think you handled this in just about the worst way possible. If you felt you absolutely had to say something to your friend, you should have done it face to face. Not over email. Here's a little bit of advice for you: next time you have to broach a personal matter or a disagreement with someone, don't use texts or emails. They're grand for many things but they're dreadful when it comes to nuances.

I can see why this guy doesn't want to talk to you. Not only did you send these emails, which he can read again and again and continue to be hurt by. You also dragged a mutual friend into this. If I was in his shoes, I'd not want to talk to you again either.

You have probably ruined this friendship. Perhaps in time he might talk to you again but I doubt very much if the friendship can ever return to what it was.

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Like I said, I'm in a different country and can't talk face to face. Maybe phone would've been better I don't deny that but at the time I was stressing majorly over something else and something HAD to be said there and then, because the friend in question was really hurting and stressing my girlfriend out at the time. 
I didn't "drag a friend into this". I told you, the friend I called out, called our mutual friend, himself. I didn't ask him to get involved or anything like that. The friend I called out took it upon him to contact this mutual friend of ours, and this mutual friend of ours relayed to me what he said.

bee06

I agree with Ursus. Email was a terrible idea. I assume your mutual friend talked to him so there was most likely a softer/nicer tone when he was being truthful. Email has no tone ther than what your friend read into it. And then you sent a second email listing all the ways he is selfish to rub it in.

Ursus Horribilis

You should have waited until you were face to face with him again. The written word is a dreadful means of communicating delicate matters like this. Why do you think emoji exist?

turnikett1

bee06 wrote: »

I agree with Ursus. Email was a terrible idea. I assume your mutual friend talked to him so there was most likely a softer/nicer tone when he was being truthful. Email has no tone ther than what your friend read into it. And then you sent a second email listing all the ways he is selfish to rub it in.

I don't deny email isn't great but I want to re-iterate he did something very selfish (again) that really hurt my girlfriend and her housemate and by extension me. He had been bombarding us with calls and texts for days trying to self-defend what he did, trying to vindicate himself. On that particular night I snapped and had to say something to him, I didn't want to call him as I was already stressing BIG TIME about something else that was happening really really soon. I didn't have the energy or mental capacity to engage in a long phone call and needed to focus on my work. It's not ideal but I wanted to talk to him about everything on the phone after my work-related stress issue had been finished, which was only 2-3 days after.

And I did not send him examples to "rub it in". He asked for examples so he could learn and understand better. Our mutual friend gave him examples, told me he wanted hear some. So I gave them to him.

Ursus Horribilis

I think you're learning the hard way that email is not the way to deal with this. As to what to do next, wait until you're in the same country as him again and see if you can meet face to face.

turnikett1

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

I think you're learning the hard way that email is not the way to deal with this. As to what to do next, wait until you're in the same country as him again and see if you can meet face to face.

It's not, but I told him I would talk to him on the phone about everything after I had stopped stressing about my job-related circumstances, roughly 2 days later. I really needed 100% focus and concentration to be able to commit to this job-related event I had coming up. I don't think its wholly unreasonable to want that space for 2 days, after I said I would talk to him properly about it over the phone. He has always been so incredibly selfish and has hurt me so, so many times. I felt that FOR ONCE in our friendship I am allowed to do something I want to do, and at that moment I did not want to talk on the phone because I was already stressing about something else and needed to focus my energy elsewhere, for 2 days. But as I say, something had to be said that night, because he was putting my girlfriend under tremendous emotional stress and pressure.

bee06

turnikett1 wrote: »

I don't deny email isn't great but I want to re-iterate he did something very selfish (again) that really hurt my girlfriend and her housemate and by extension me. He had been bombarding us with calls and texts for days trying to self-defend what he did, trying to vindicate himself. On that particular night I snapped and had to say something to him, I didn't want to call him as I was already stressing BIG TIME about something else that was happening really really soon. I didn't have the energy or mental capacity to engage in a long phone call and needed to focus on my work. It's not ideal but I wanted to talk to him about everything on the phone after my work-related stress issue had been finished, which was only 2-3 days after.

And I did not send him examples to "rub it in". He asked for examples so he could learn and understand better. Our mutual friend gave him examples, told me he wanted hear some. So I gave them to him.

That’s grand but you asked for advice on why he now isn’t speaking to you and we are giving you the reason. You communicated to him in the way that suited you best but it no doubt ended up affecting the relationship with him.

Did he ask you for examples or did you give them unasked after hearing from your mutual friend that he was asked for them. There is a difference.

pwurple

Yes, you should have left it until you had cooled off, or had time to talk to him  about it.

Also, you've been fuming about it for years, slowly building up this case with examples, silently fuming, and not saying it directly to him? That's fairly two-faced tbh, and I can see why he would be hurt.  And by involving someone else, you've completed a character assassination.

Caranica

Can I ask what you got out of the friendship? A dear departed friend of mine helped me through a difficult "friendship" by saying we have drains and radiators in our lives and we should strive to be surrounded by radiators, not drains.

To me a selfish friend is a drain, I'm amazed that you accepted it for so long. Are they really a loss to you now?

I would be inclined to move on, and enjoy your real friends.

woodchuck

OP I think people are being a bit harsh. Of course email is not the best way to communicate. However as you said, you are in another country. Also by comparison, it sounds like you communicating this by email is nothing compared to the selfish behaviour he has demonstrated over the years.

I'm not sure about salvaging the friendship tbh though. However why do you even want to remain friends with him if he's that selfish? He's unlikely to change his behaviour at this stage.

turnikett1

pwurple wrote: »

Yes, you should have left it until you had cooled off, or had time to talk to him  about it.

Also, you've been fuming about it for years, slowly building up this case with examples, silently fuming, and not saying it directly to him? That's fairly two-faced tbh, and I can see why he would be hurt.  And by involving someone else, you've completed a character assassination.

I'm not a confrontational person in the slightest, whereas he is, and he can be very upfront and aggressive (not physically) when someone has an issue with him. So all those times he let me down I said nothing, in the naive hopes one day he would mature and stop. I don't think it's fair to call me two-faced for that, I don't think it's fair either to say I involved someone else, if you had read an earlier post you would see that it was him who involved someone else - not me.

@ people asking why do I want to stay friends. I've asked myself this many many times. He has been a total and utter dickhead so many times to me, like I can't begin to explain what he has done. He is the only one of my close friends to have routinely let me down and belittle me. Even amidst all the selfishness I have had some amazing memories with him - he is an incredibly fun person, who is also really smart. I love traveling with him, playing trad with him and having intellectual conversations about history and politics and all that stuff. I have a lot of good memories with him. But as I've said, his selfish behaviour has just carried on and on and on and he's hurt me too many times. I'm sick of defending him to friends family and strangers when he doesn't deserve it one bit.

I don't know what I want out of this friendship, I don't know if he even can or will ever change. I want my good memories of him, without all the selfish hurt. If he says he's willing to change and has expressed remorse then I'm willing to give him another chance and hope that he cuts out the selfish crap and I can be his friend without all the secret seething and quiet disappointment. I'm just so confused right now to be honest

JustAThought

Its hurtful to be told the truth particularly if its true. If yerman is mortified by what you showed him up to be then he will be avoiding you. In fact I suspect if someone told me at length how annonying I had been for years but said they wanted to be friends still Id be saying the same thing -yeah great -lets stay friends -while deciding never to go near them again and have to deal with my terrible past with them. Id be mortified.

If s/he is always a bigtime nuisance and utterly selfish * why do you insist you want to be such friends? If you get to change them? If they become what you want but arn't?

We have a few friends in our group for years and in their own ways they are nice people but for years have been utterly selfish and disruptive. We all have learned that we cannot change them and their sefish ways are engrained in other issues or ways of behaving that are dismisdive of the 'normal' values one expects in friendship or society. They are relied on less, panderex to less in the organising of events and taken less to heart -as we all know they are selfish & self absorbed and will always only think of themselves and act for themselbes first. Over time they have become less important and devolved from their previously central roles because frankly they are too selfish in this busy world to be putting at the heart of everything.

Leave your friend be. Stop pestering him. In a few months ask him to be part of a group thing. It may have died down by then. He now knows hes an ongoing insufferable *. Let him figure it out. If he cares he will adjust his behaviour in the future -if not -he will carry on as before.

Noone likes to lose a friend but in the end if he is a constant pain or drain or source of aggravation then maybe a bit of distance is the best thing -while still 'being friends'.

nthclare

I got rid of a so called friend around 6 months ago, he was absolutely toxic,boring, not one bit interesting to be around.

They drain the life out of people,Self entitled and walking contradictions....

All they do is compete in everything, constantly Fckn people over, or thinking everyone is Fckn them over...

You're well rid I tell ya

Emme

turnikett1 wrote: »

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So to make a long story short, I have been really close friends with this guy for about 8 years. Throughout those 8 years he has been a selfish motherf***er, and it's something that everyone can see. At first it didn't really bother me, his positives outweighed his selfishness, and I thought he'd grow out of it over time.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But about 2 years ago his unchanging selfishness really started to grate me, started to chip away at me and made me seethe in secret. It was building up inside me and I found myself being ever so slightly less inclined to hang out with him each time he did something selfish (which is often). But basically, about one month ago he did some very selfish and hurt me, my girlfriend, her pet and her housemate in the process. I decided I've absolutely had it with his selfish bullsh*t, because I really have, and I told him straight up that he if he continues to be selfish then I don't want to be friends with him anymore.[/font]

No apology from this guy for his behaviour? I bet he is the kind of person who thinks they are always right and other people are the problem.

Selfish people don't like being called out on their behaviour and are unlikely to change. You have wised up to his behaviour and aren't willing to put up with it any more. That won't benefit him so he will look for someone who is.

Forget him. You are well rid.

meeeeh

turnikett1 wrote: »

If he says he's willing to change and has expressed remorse then I'm willing to give him another chance and hope that he cuts out the selfish crap and I can be his friend without all the secret seething and quiet disappointment. I'm just so confused right now to be honest

As it stands you seem to be the one looking for another chance.

You didn't handle this very well and you hoped that when you tell your friend all the examples of bad behaviour he will suddenly see the light and apologise. Friendship is a bit more complicated and even someone less selfish would find the email with the list of all failings hard to deal with. It doesn't seem like your friend is a very nicve person but the problem here is you. To have any chance of being friends with him you have to accept that he is who he is and not try parent him into something he is not. Or be prepared to walk away from the friendship that frustrates you.

Edit: next time when someone frustrates you with texts at a stressful time text them back you can't deal with this for another few days and at least temporarily block them if they don't stop annoying you.

sashafierce

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turnikett1

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I am only painting one picture here. Yes I have fumed and given out about him a lot and it seems like I intensely dislike him but I don't. We've lived together, traveled together, went to university together and I really do have a wealth of great and fun memories with him. We are similar people in a lot of ways and I connect to him in some ways that I don't connect with other close friends of mine. Amidst his selfish attitude I do have a deep fondness for him, overall, and it's that fondness for him that I have behind it all that makes me want to stay his friend despite all the selfish stuff he's done.

Anyways as you say it was naive and foolish of me to expect him to turn around and suddenly change and move on, I guess I was just desperate to have him as the friend I've always hoped he'd be - all the good stuff without the self-absorbed wankery. I hope one day we can have that friendship, and I hope sometime he will get in touch and attempt to rebuild this friendship. I trust he will. But if he doesn't, then I am going to take that as a sign that he's not changing and will move on. It will be rough but as I get older I get pickier about who I want close in my life, and selfish people is not one of them.

And to anyone asking, I wont be home until Christmas at the absolute earliest, even then I'm not sure. So I won't be seeing him for a long time. He was meant to move to this country with me in September, but I don't think that's on the cards anymore...

Pelvis

OP, why do you want to be friends with someone who is clearly an arsehole?

WIZWEB

OP I can only share my experience. This month last year after twenty odd years my friendship ended with my 'best mate'. There were many selfish activities committed by him (in my opinion) over those years. Believe me I wasn't perfect either. Last year I was under huge personal pressure (as he was fully aware) with the stresses of a particular job, huge daily commute (actually passing his new place every day which I sourced through the council for him) and a toxic relationship breakup. He disregarded these concerns and others of mine while making various selfish entitled demands from me to make his easy life even easier. In essence he crossed several boundaries.

The final straw was his demand that I immediately install a new and freely supplied washing machine and electric cooker for him. It was a weekday and I was wrecked so politely said no but that I could do it when I was off over the weekend. A couple of days later I got a rant over the phone that I had cost him €70 for his hiring someone to install his cooker! I even had the spare and appropriate cable which I had previously informed him. I listened patiently and didn't argue during this call. Though I know from others that he is doing fine I've not contacted him since nor has he contacted me. I really missed our 'friendship' at first but now after a lot of reflection and a year later I firmly believe I was gifted with an escape. After a lot of time apart I have no intention of ever destroying my freedom from his various selfish dramas ever again. We're done.

Emme

turnikett1 wrote: »

But if he doesn't, then I am going to take that as a sign that he's not changing and will move on. It will be rough but as I get older I get pickier about who I want close in my life, and selfish people is not one of them.

People move on and change friends as they get older. Also people who might have been walkovers (I don't mean the OP) when they were younger may get more assertive as they get older and get rid of friends who wanted everything on their terms and weren't willing to compromise under any circumstances.

This is a good thing.

turnikett1

Well I sincerely hope that it doesn't come to that. The reason I called him out on his selfishness was so that I wouldn't have to force myself to stop being friends with him, because it was heading that way. As I say take out the selfish attitude and he is a great guy. I want him to be the friend with the good memories I have. I'm happy to move on from the bad ones if he's willing to acknowledge them to me and change. Only time will tell if he does.

Thanks to all for their insights and replies, I have done a lot of reflecting today. I already lost a best friend before. We were like 2 peas in a pod, but as the years went by it turned out he was a cheating, abusive control freak who tormented his poor (ex) wife (who I am still friends with). Not that the friend in question is anywhere near as bad as him, but it did really hurt to lose a friend so close to you like that. It took me a good year or 2 to really get over it and move on. I actually read an article on the Guardian regarding this not long ago. "Friend break ups", not oft discussed or recognised, but they hurt as much as relationship break ups. 'Tis the circle of life I suppose...

SirChenjin

That is very true, OP. Losing a friend can hurt badly. Friendships do evolve and change as we go through life.

Hindsight is twenty twenty vision, I know, and I suppose had you called him out on his behaviour every now and then, over the years, things wouldn't have ended the way that they did. I'm not saying that by way of criticism, by the way. I guess it came as a shock to him to realise how you truly felt about his behaviour and now you are wrong footed, in his opinion anyway.

Just to add to advice given by previous posters, if I were you, I would leave things be for now. Maybe the friendship will recover, maybe it won't. What will be, will be.

All the best.

wiggle16

I have to agree with Ursus and others that you really did go about this in the worst way possible.

I had a close friend living abroad do this to me before. As it happened, he accused me of talking about him behind his back and called me every name under the sun, only to find out it wasn't true. If he'd called me, rather than writing an essay, it's possible we would still be friends.

You not only sent one email telling him he was selfish, but multiple emails. So it's not like you can even soften it by saying you wrote it in the heat of the moment.
He hasn't fallen out with your mutual friend, even though he said the same things... because it was over the phone. See??

You have been friends for 8 years, sorry OP but you should have called him.

All that being said, there's a few things you have to accept now:
- Right or wrong, you hurt his feelings. Maybe he is the most selfish person in the world but he obviously didn't think you felt that way about him and that is very hurtful to hear.

- He gets to decide how he feels about this and about you. It's not up to you. You wanted to have it out with him and make him admit he's a selfish b*stard and all the rest of it, and you got your way, you went and did it. He does not have to suck it up and remain friends with you, even if you're completely and uncontrovertably right.

- You have likely soured the friendship permanently. Even if you do remain friends, it will have hurt him deeply to learn that you (and according to you, ALL HIS FRIENDS) think he's a selfish brat. He's going to feel uncomfortable around you and about you, because you're the person who told him how he is seen by others. I don't know if you get how hurt he must be, tbh.

- As another poster said, it's very naive to want to call him out on being selfish in the way you did, and expect that quality to vanish while retaining the things you like about him.

You are coming up with justifications for doing what you did, along the lines of "like he's been selfish for eight years, so now I get to be selfish for once" - you know it doesn't work like that. You don't get a free pass to treat someone poorly every 8 years based on their behaviour and expect to remain friends. Either you're friends or you're not, and you're singing his praises now but you didn't act like that when you sent the email.
I want him and all those good memories minus the selfish attitude - is that so much to ask for? - yes. It is. I don't think you really expected him to reply with "you're so right, I'm a selfish nightmare, I promise I'll change".

You figured he deserved to get a bollocking off you and you were in the right to give him one. You seem quite fixated on being the one in the right... you are at pains to back yourself up by saying the mutual friend agrees... and I think that's because you know yourself that you didn't do right by him. If he is as bad as you say he is, it's hard to see how you would WANT to remain friends. So I suspect you know you went a bit too far in both what you said and how and in what manner you said it. You feel guilty now, that's quite clear.

Personally I think you owe him a really big apology to have any hope of salvaging this friendship. You don't have to completely take back everything you said (and you can't), because if he's selfish he's selfish, but you have to be the bigger man here. You want him to come around and be mates again - that's not going to happen if you insist on being right. You can't insist he accepts your point of view. You can't say "you have no right to sulk or be angry with me because everything I said is true, but you have lovely qualities too". That's what you're doing and that has to stop.

Call him. Say you're sorry and you still want to be friends. Give him time.

I hope you can both admit where you're at fault. I hope it works out for you.

wiggle16

I should add, I don't meant to be overly critical or harsh for the sake of it. You obviously genuinely love your friend, but I think you don't want to admit to yourself that you might have f*cked up. I think you did and I think the only way to make up for it is to own it completely.

I hope it works out for you, honestly.

orthsquel

You have to hope that maybe he'll reflect on what you said too, as you have with it all. However, don't raise your expectations on him changing. He may, but if he doesn't see himself at fault, then it's unlikely he will change, even to the betterment of himself.

You have good memories with him, in amongst them was the selfish behaviour that you tolerated. Be careful at looking back at those memories with rose-tinted glasses and overlooking the selfish behaviour at the time.

If ye get space for eachother now, and have contact in the future, you can at least assess if he has changed. I close friend I'd known for years, gone through many ups and downs, great memories, we had a big falling out when I called them out on a few things. We had space and were out of contact for a long time. We got back in contact, I'd hoped things had changed, and as I slowly let them back into my life (I genuinely missed them as a person), I found they hadn't. I couldn't take it so I ended the friendship with them entirely. Haven't spoken to them since, and I'm better off for it.

If selfishness is something you don't want in a friend... everyone is a little selfish, even in positive ways not to over-extend themselves. If you're still in reflective mode, you may want to consider where your boundaries are on that and if it's a deal breaker for you, in friendships. You'll want to prepare yourself to assert yourself at earlier times in friendships to pull someone up on their behaviour and how it impacts you, and be prepared to take a step back or end it too.

dog tired

Five years on after I pulled someone up on their selfishness, they haven't apologised or got back in contact. And it was a close family member. It's what selfish people do.