Prospects for future teachers

OrangeBadger

Hiya guys

So recently I have been giving a lot of thought into becoming a post primary teacher through Hibernia.

My subjects would be history and geography, as I studied both in Uni. I am just looking for some feedback about the future prospect/demand for teachers of my subjects. In two years time would I end up struggling to find work or with a growing population would teachers be in demand.

Just looking for some opinions and discussion.

Thank you for any feedback

mtoutlemonde

OrangeBadger wrote: »

Hiya guys

So recently I have been giving a lot of thought into becoming a post primary teacher through Hibernia.

My subjects would be history and geography, as I studied both in Uni. I am just looking for some feedback about the future prospect/demand for teachers of my subjects. In two years time would I end up struggling to find work or with a growing population would teachers be in demand.

Just looking for some opinions and discussion.

Thank you for any feedback

Just be aware that History/Geography is not compulsory in the majority of schools and some have made them options against each other i.e. you can't do both.

Have a read of this thread which is similar but the only difference between you and the OP in that thread is you have two subjects that are taught in every school.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057882228

You would want to make sure teaching is something you always to do. It would be a very expensive mistake if you do the dip and can't find sustainable employment.

Dylan94

They're not the best subjects for finding a job. However, things are slowly improving and it's not as difficult to find a job as it was a few years ago.

I just finished the PME and Geography is one of my subjects. I've had 5 interviews this month, not one of them were for Geography.

Anyone else that I know that has history, the job they were offered did not include History.

I'm sure you would eventually get a job, just be prepared for a long, hard depressing fight to find one. You may spend a few years subbing.

BigDinny

I would say don't bother OP unless you know someone on the inside in a school who could get you in the door. I ended up working in a call centre - it was better than waiting on the phone to ring for substitution work.

OrangeBadger

I appreciate the honest replies.

I have a master's in health promotion from NUIG I wonder could that possibly enable me to teach another subject?

mtoutlemonde

OrangeBadger wrote: »

I appreciate the honest replies.

I have a master's in health promotion from NUIG I wonder could that possibly enable me to teach another subject?

Master's are not accepted by the Teaching Council for registration purposes. Registration depends on your undergraduate degree alone.

Postgrad10

OrangeBadger wrote: »

I appreciate the honest replies.

I have a master's in health promotion from NUIG I wonder could that possibly enable me to teach another subject?

It qualify you as it's not a level 8 degree but I suppose a principal would count it for teaching SPHE or wellbeing or a TY module in health /nutrition , but it wouldn't be something to count on, and definitely won't be recognised by the teaching council.

RealJohn

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Master's are not accepted by the Teaching Council for registration purposes. Registration depends on your undergraduate degree alone.

I was recognised for my second subject because of my masters. Are you talking about initial registration? My understanding was that as long as you have enough credits (that they’re willing to recognise, they'll register you for that subject.

mtoutlemonde

RealJohn wrote: »

I was recognised for my second subject because of my masters. Are you talking about initial registration? My understanding was that as long as you have enough credits (that they’re willing to recognise, they'll register you for that subject.

Yes I was referring to initial registration. Had a friend who had a masters in a subject and they would not register them for the subject as the masters was 'too focused', they wanted a wide range of studies.

lulufinn90

Don't do it with hist and geog as your subjects. You would be just as well to light €12,000 on fire than spend 2 years doing the PME. Unless you know are well connected you will be subbing for years and signing on every summer. Both subjects are options at JC and LC and the recommended teaching time at JC has been reduced recently. The rule of thumb is to have a core subject and something else to make yourself employable.

gaiscioch

Somebody must say it so I'll bite. Even with a full-time CID/Permanent job with history and geography under the pre-2011 conditions the finances are very poor if you have to buy a home in Dublin, where the population growth and accordingly the teaching positions are most likely. With the understandable focus on getting the CID, not enough people who are thinking of teaching are looking beyond that to the finances and the changing culture/increasing bureaucratisation of teaching. This is a mistake. (I write this as somebody with a CID and at the top of the pre-2011 qualification allowance).

Three steps:

1. Check your anticipated salary on the ASTI website in the year you want to buy a home: Secondary level teachers' salaries

2. Multiply your above salary by 3.5 times (the limit for mortgage approval)

3. Go to myhome.ie and find what you can afford and in what area (guideline: if the house is very cheap, it's almost certainly an area with a declining population and therefore with a declining number of teaching positions).

Addenda:

1. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #1. Look dispassionately at those finances, and be cued into what your after tax income will be by checking the 10% PRD/ASC tax on top of all your other taxes on all your income above €32,000. With PAYE, USC, ASC and PRSI you'll have well over 50% of your income deducted by the state on all income above €32,000. Furthermore, your public service pension is an unquestionably yellow pack version of public service pensions 10 or 15 years ago.

2. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #2. And while the holidays will be great when you're young and single, there's absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. You'll be working through your holidays to pay for the childcare (c. €1000 per child, per month) and then the after school childcare which runs for the duration of their primary school (c. €500 per child, per month) and mortgage costs (in Dublin, where most jobs are, just be ready for a life of commuting in traffic that's only getting worse as the whole of Ireland moves here)- and then when the kids are raised you'll be working through your summers in your 50s and 60s (retirement currently is 68 but will almost certainly be more by the time you retire - yayyyy!) to maximise your AVCs or pay for your daughter's wedding or her house deposit...

Forget the teachers' holidays: it's a massive carrot when you start out that crucifies you down the road.

3. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #3. Teaching has changed: A huge cultural change is being imposed on teaching that you should be under no illusions about. It's far more bureaucratic, loaded with buzz words, schemes of work, department planning, collaborative learning and whatever else has failed in England which our genius fonctionnaires in the Department of Education have, in their unbridled wisdom, decided to adopt 30 years after they first appeared in England. This is "reform", in a decidedly Orwellian understanding of language. So while you might very well have a great grá for teaching as a spiritual, rewarding endeavour, don't be surprised if most of your daily work as a teacher is connected with administration and paper pushing and enduring the latest Pollyanna types giving you in-services with a whole heap of new buzz-words and warning you about using the buzzwords from last year. (oh, and don't ever use a red pen to correct!)

Do get into teaching if:

1.You've a massive trust fund
2. You like loads of paperwork and learning new buzz words and loads of nonsense meetings to tick boxes.
3. You've a permanent job lined up for you in some deprived area of rural Ireland where you can buy a four-bedroom house for under €100,000.

evolving_doors

I think Dublin is probably the most competitive places to interview in. Other rural places where there isn't any PME colleges nearby seem to be a bit easier (anecdotally to me anyway)

williaint

gaiscioch wrote: »

Somebody must say it so I'll bite. Even with a full-time CID/Permanent job with history and geography under the pre-2011 conditions the finances are very poor if you have to buy a home in Dublin, where the population growth and accordingly the teaching positions are most likely. With the understandable focus on getting the CID, not enough people who are thinking of teaching are looking beyond that to the finances and the changing culture/increasing bureaucratisation of teaching. This is a mistake. (I write this as somebody with a CID and at the top of the pre-2011 qualification allowance).

Three steps:

1. Check your anticipated salary on the ASTI website in the year you want to buy a home: Secondary level teachers' salaries

2. Multiply your above salary by 3.5 times (the limit for mortgage approval)

3. Go to myhome.ie and find what you can afford and in what area (guideline: if the house is very cheap, it's almost certainly an area with a declining population and therefore with a declining number of teaching positions).

Addenda:

1. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #1. Look dispassionately at those finances, and be cued into what your after tax income will be by checking the 10% PRD/ASC tax on top of all your other taxes on all your income above €32,000. With PAYE, USC, ASC and PRSI you'll have well over 50% of your income deducted by the state on all income above €32,000. Furthermore, your public service pension is an unquestionably yellow pack version of public service pensions 10 or 15 years ago.

2. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #2. And while the holidays will be great when you're young and single, there's absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. You'll be working through your holidays to pay for the childcare (c. €1000 per child, per month) and then the after school childcare which runs for the duration of their primary school (c. €500 per child, per month) and mortgage costs (in Dublin, where most jobs are, just be ready for a life of commuting in traffic that's only getting worse as the whole of Ireland moves here)- and then when the kids are raised you'll be working through your summers in your 50s and 60s (retirement currently is 68 but will almost certainly be more by the time you retire - yayyyy!) to maximise your AVCs or pay for your daughter's wedding or her house deposit...

Forget the teachers' holidays: it's a massive carrot when you start out that crucifies you down the road.

3. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #3. Teaching has changed: A huge cultural change is being imposed on teaching that you should be under no illusions about. It's far more bureaucratic, loaded with buzz words, schemes of work, department planning, collaborative learning and whatever else has failed in England which our genius fonctionnaires in the Department of Education have, in their unbridled wisdom, decided to adopt 30 years after they first appeared in England. This is "reform", in a decidedly Orwellian understanding of language. So while you might very well have a great grá for teaching as a spiritual, rewarding endeavour, don't be surprised if most of your daily work as a teacher is connected with administration and paper pushing and enduring the latest Pollyanna types giving you in-services with a whole heap of new buzz-words and warning you about using the buzzwords from last year. (oh, and don't ever use a red pen to correct!)

Do get into teaching if:

1.You've a massive trust fund
2. You like loads of paperwork and learning new buzz words and loads of nonsense meetings to tick boxes.
3. You've a permanent job lined up for you in some deprived area of rural Ireland where you can buy a four-bedroom house for under €100,000.

I absolutely agree that conditions in Ireland have deteriorated but have you ever tried teaching in another EU country? I have taught secondary in other countries and let me tell you conditions could be a lot worse. I think if you have a permanent post and you entered pre 2011, I really don't think you are that badly off. If you look comparatively at OECD teacher pay, Ireland has the third highest secondary teacher pay in Europe (behind Luxembourg and Germany). Obviously if you are on the fixed term temporary roundabout this won't be much of a consolation, but I am speaking about those with permanent posts who entered prior to 2011.

How are 3 months paid holidays (if you are lucky enough to have them) a bad thing? Would you prefer to get 5 weeks summer holidays like they do in England? And no, they don't get more holidays during the school year.

Count yourself lucky that there is currently no performance related pay in Ireland. In England there is no automatic pay progression and if your exams results are not good or your observations don't go well, they can and do FREEZE your pay. Each year you have to justify to your "line manager" that you have met your targets and deserve a measly increment to get to £24k, £26k, etc. Plus pay is capped for a classroom teacher at £36k unless you take on extra responsiblity.

In France, pay is a nowhere near as a good as it is in Ireland and you have no say where you work. L'Education Nationale send you to schools where nobody wants to work. Especially if you are single with no children, they can and do send you anywhere.

And as for EFL teaching in Ireland, the conditions and pay are absolutely horrific...

Yes, it is completely unfair that new entrants (myself being one of them) earn 10% less, have to pay double the amount and spend double the amount of time on teacher training, and there are far too many temporary fixed-term contracts, but luckily none of this applies to you.

Yes, house prices in and around Dublin are ridiculous, and it makes getting on the property ladder extremely difficult but it is the same for everyone. If you a nurse, Garda, or civil servant, you have to deal with the same extortionate house prices, and all of these have lower starting salaries than teachers. Although, at least they will be employed full-time which I know is rarely the case for new entrants.
My point is this: if you really think your permanent full-time post on the old salary scale is that woeful, then leave and go work in the private sector. If you feel you deserve and can get earn more elsewhere, then go for it!

And yes, I have taught in Ireland, France, Germany and England as a secondary teacher so I know what it's like. I just think don't complain about pay and conditions when you have a permanent post earning the pre 2011 rate, when there are new entrants out there who spent a lot more money and time on training to become teachers, are earning 10% less, and are still on the CID roundabout.

2011abc

Williant , gaiscioch was telling it like it is for new entrants .Thats what the thread is about .You see not all ‘older’ teachers ‘threw new entrants under a bus ‘ in fact quite a lot of us ‘more experienced’ teachers are sickened at the treatment of our colleagues .Why criticise them for that ? Gaiscioch hit the nail on the head !

TheValeyard

@gaiscioch


Probably the best post ive read in this forum in a long time.

mtoutlemonde

2011abc wrote: »

Williant , gaiscioch was telling it like it is for new entrants .Thats what the thread is about .You see not all ‘older’ teachers ‘threw new entrants under a bus ‘ in fact quite a lot of us ‘more experienced’ teachers are sickened at the treatment of our colleagues .Why criticise them for that ? Gaiscioch hit the nail on the head !

No, the new entrants took off to the TUI. As well as management who decided an increment was more important. This is my biggest annoyance in the last few years and because of all this - we're left with this terrible JCT which is going to bring down the standards we have presently.

sitstill

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

2011abc wrote: »

Williant , gaiscioch was telling it like it is for new entrants .Thats what the thread is about .You see not all ‘older’ teachers ‘threw new entrants under a bus ‘ in fact quite a lot of us ‘more experienced’ teachers are sickened at the treatment of our colleagues .Why criticise them for that ? Gaiscioch hit the nail on the head !

No, the new entrants took off to the TUI. As well as management who decided an increment was more important. This is my biggest annoyance in the last few years and because of all this - we're left with this terrible JCT which is going to bring down the standards we have presently.

This.
Every NQT employed in my school in the last 3 years has joined the TUI. As an ASTI member who has a CID, full hours and employed pre 2011, this disgusted me and made me think why should we continue to fight for them?

evolving_doors

sitstill wrote: »

This.
Every NQT employed in my school in the last 3 years has joined the TUI. As an ASTI member who has a CID, full hours and employed pre 2011, this disgusted me and made me think why should we continue to fight for them?

If you start thinking about fighting for individuals then the ploy of divide and conquer has succeeded, it's always about the overall profession.
Once the term pre and post 2011 was introduced by the govt. the writing was on the wall.
They are using this as a stick ever since, you can see by the efforts to bring pay back in line with all teachers. Will FEMPI ever be unwound no, they'll just keep on tinkering with the 'pres' and 'posts' as long as they're pitted against each other. It'll be wrapped up into another name (Towards 2030 will be the next iteration:pac:).

evolving_doors

williaint wrote: »

I absolutely agree that conditions in Ireland have deteriorated but have you ever tried teaching in another EU country? I have taught secondary in other countries and let me tell you conditions could be a lot worse. I think if you have a permanent post and you entered pre 2011, I really don't think you are that badly off. If you look comparatively at OECD teacher pay, Ireland has the third highest secondary teacher pay in Europe (behind Luxembourg and Germany). Obviously if you are on the fixed term temporary roundabout this won't be much of a consolation, but I am speaking about those with permanent posts who entered prior to 2011.

How are 3 months paid holidays (if you are lucky enough to have them) a bad thing? Would you prefer to get 5 weeks summer holidays like they do in England? And no, they don't get more holidays during the school year.

Count yourself lucky that there is currently no performance related pay in Ireland. In England there is no automatic pay progression and if your exams results are not good or your observations don't go well, they can and do FREEZE your pay. Each year you have to justify to your "line manager" that you have met your targets and deserve a measly increment to get to £24k, £26k, etc. Plus pay is capped for a classroom teacher at £36k unless you take on extra responsiblity.

In France, pay is a nowhere near as a good as it is in Ireland and you have no say where you work. L'Education Nationale send you to schools where nobody wants to work. Especially if you are single with no children, they can and do send you anywhere.

And as for EFL teaching in Ireland, the conditions and pay are absolutely horrific...

Yes, it is completely unfair that new entrants (myself being one of them) earn 10% less, have to pay double the amount and spend double the amount of time on teacher training, and there are far too many temporary fixed-term contracts, but luckily none of this applies to you.

Yes, house prices in and around Dublin are ridiculous, and it makes getting on the property ladder extremely difficult but it is the same for everyone. If you a nurse, Garda, or civil servant, you have to deal with the same extortionate house prices, and all of these have lower starting salaries than teachers. Although, at least they will be employed full-time which I know is rarely the case for new entrants.
My point is this: if you really think your permanent full-time post on the old salary scale is that woeful, then leave and go work in the private sector. If you feel you deserve and can get earn more elsewhere, then go for it!

And yes, I have taught in Ireland, France, Germany and England as a secondary teacher so I know what it's like. I just think don't complain about pay and conditions when you have a permanent post earning the pre 2011 rate, when there are new entrants out there who spent a lot more money and time on training to become teachers, are earning 10% less, and are still on the CID roundabout.

I think you're missing the point. The poster was giving advice for post 2011.

Would you advise Orangebadger to go down the PME route in Ireland?

Blaizes

I qualified pre 2011 and gave up teaching when I had my first child. I wasn't permanent and got sick of the run around of maternity leaves, doing subbing and going for interviews then being placed on the panel and waiting.

I would like to go back teaching but when I look at the jobs being advertised I see some very small contract hours or being asked to send three or four CVS for a job application. What is all that about? It's very disheartening. Teachers are being made jump through hoops for what may be very little at the end.

I don't even know where I would stand on the pay scale now but I would like to be able to get a secure job without being given the run around.

Also it seems I would be ineligible to join a teaching union now if I went back subbing and that definitely wasn't the case before.

The other thing is doing interviews where someone else is/ has already been in the job.It's a wildcard.What a waste of time for the interviewees if the existing teacher is going to be re appointed.And how stressful for the existing teacher not knowing whether he/she will be.Surely there is a better and fairer of doing this?

Then there is the new JC how will that pan out? I worked in the UK and the system was a shambles. Ours isn't exactly the same but it is similar so still have many reservations.

OP think carefully History and Geography are now optional subjects as others have pointed out.You need at least one core or in demand subject to stand a chance.Even at that you could be given the run around for years.You really need to love teaching to stick with it.Good luck!

Corkgirl18

sitstill wrote: »

This.
Every NQT employed in my school in the last 3 years has joined the TUI. As an ASTI member who has a CID, full hours and employed pre 2011, this disgusted me and made me think why should we continue to fight for them?

You're making a generalisation. Some did this, not all. And as someone with CID, full hours, job security and better wages you cannot understand the position they were in.

maynooth_rules

I am the same subjects as you. You won't like to hear it, but they are very difficult subjects to get work in. I've been teaching 11 years and only now have my CID. There are maybe 7 teachers with History in our school who don't teach (we are that over subscribed on history teacher). Similar story for Geography.
Both subjects should be compulsory for JC level but are not in most schools, and this obviously creates problems.
Best of luck. I've had numerous occasions where I was so close to packing in teaching as I couldn't get reliable hours on History and Geography. Eventually I did in a school I love, so it can happen.

sitstill

Corkgirl18 wrote: »

sitstill wrote: »

This.
Every NQT employed in my school in the last 3 years has joined the TUI. As an ASTI member who has a CID, full hours and employed pre 2011, this disgusted me and made me think why should we continue to fight for them?

You're making a generalisation. Some did this, not all. And as someone with CID, full hours, job security and better wages you cannot understand the position they were in.

1. It wasn’t some. It was all. Every one of them in my school joined the TUI.

2. I know how difficult it is out there. I was 10 years going around subbing etc, signing on and off the dole and had to do jobsbridge, was let go after 4 years in one place so they wouldn’t have to give me a CID, applied for countless jobs, had interviews I never heard back from, almost moved to England loads of times and went back to college to get an extra subject and all of this during the recession when there were very few jobs fullstop. I am fully aware of how hard it is for a NQT but if they don’t help themselves by siding with the only union which was taking a real stand at the time, how can they expect others to do it for them.

Alqua

sitstill wrote: »

This.
Every NQT employed in my school in the last 3 years has joined the TUI. As an ASTI member who has a CID, full hours and employed pre 2011, this disgusted me and made me think why should we continue to fight for them?

I know this is enraging, disheartening - all the '-ings' you can think of, but please don't paint every LPT (many are not NQTs at this stage) with the same brush. If divide and conquer succeeds, what hope do we have in ever achieving anything?

I am one who did not move and as far as I know no others in my school did either, though one was very close to moving as he should have been due a CID. Some were non-union and remained so. Two LPT teacher friends of mine (both CID) did join TUI and their willingness to jump ship for the €10 increment or whatever it was makes my blood boil. I have given up trying to discuss it because there is no point arguing with them. I only hope the ICTU sticks to its guns and forces TUI to kick them all out. Any hope of that still happening?

evolving_doors

Alqua wrote: »

I know this is enraging, disheartening - all the '-ings' you can think of, but please don't paint every LPT (many are not NQTs at this stage) with the same brush. If divide and conquer succeeds, what hope do we have in ever achieving anything?

I am one who did not move and as far as I know no others in my school did either, though one was very close to moving as he should have been due a CID. Some were non-union and remained so. Two LPT teacher friends of mine (both CID) did join TUI and their willingness to jump ship for the €10 increment or whatever it was makes my blood boil. I have given up trying to discuss it because there is no point arguing with them. I only hope the ICTU sticks to its guns and forces TUI to kick them all out. Any hope of that still happening?

does the TUI have negotiating rights in your school? i.e. do they have a school rep to go to if something happens?

Alqua

evolving_doors wrote: »

does the TUI have negotiating rights in your school? i.e. do they have a school rep to go to if something happens?

The two who switched to TUI are not in my school, just happen to know them, so no idea. If you're wondering whether they switched without finding that out - probably.

I guess if there are a lot of new teachers in a school and all new staff join TUI, that would tip the balance quickly enough? Can't remember who said here that their school went from ASTI to TUI majority.

techteacher

gaiscioch wrote: »

Somebody must say it so I'll bite. Even with a full-time CID/Permanent job with history and geography under the pre-2011 conditions the finances are very poor if you have to buy a home in Dublin, where the population growth and accordingly the teaching positions are most likely. With the understandable focus on getting the CID, not enough people who are thinking of teaching are looking beyond that to the finances and the changing culture/increasing bureaucratisation of teaching. This is a mistake. (I write this as somebody with a CID and at the top of the pre-2011 qualification allowance).

Three steps:

1. Check your anticipated salary on the ASTI website in the year you want to buy a home: Secondary level teachers' salaries

2. Multiply your above salary by 3.5 times (the limit for mortgage approval)

3. Go to myhome.ie and find what you can afford and in what area (guideline: if the house is very cheap, it's almost certainly an area with a declining population and therefore with a declining number of teaching positions).

Addenda:

1. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #1. Look dispassionately at those finances, and be cued into what your after tax income will be by checking the 10% PRD/ASC tax on top of all your other taxes on all your income above €32,000. With PAYE, USC, ASC and PRSI you'll have well over 50% of your income deducted by the state on all income above €32,000. Furthermore, your public service pension is an unquestionably yellow pack version of public service pensions 10 or 15 years ago.

2. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #2. And while the holidays will be great when you're young and single, there's absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. You'll be working through your holidays to pay for the childcare (c. €1000 per child, per month) and then the after school childcare which runs for the duration of their primary school (c. €500 per child, per month) and mortgage costs (in Dublin, where most jobs are, just be ready for a life of commuting in traffic that's only getting worse as the whole of Ireland moves here)- and then when the kids are raised you'll be working through your summers in your 50s and 60s (retirement currently is 68 but will almost certainly be more by the time you retire - yayyyy!) to maximise your AVCs or pay for your daughter's wedding or her house deposit...

Forget the teachers' holidays: it's a massive carrot when you start out that crucifies you down the road.

3. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #3. Teaching has changed: A huge cultural change is being imposed on teaching that you should be under no illusions about. It's far more bureaucratic, loaded with buzz words, schemes of work, department planning, collaborative learning and whatever else has failed in England which our genius fonctionnaires in the Department of Education have, in their unbridled wisdom, decided to adopt 30 years after they first appeared in England. This is "reform", in a decidedly Orwellian understanding of language. So while you might very well have a great grá for teaching as a spiritual, rewarding endeavour, don't be surprised if most of your daily work as a teacher is connected with administration and paper pushing and enduring the latest Pollyanna types giving you in-services with a whole heap of new buzz-words and warning you about using the buzzwords from last year. (oh, and don't ever use a red pen to correct!)

Do get into teaching if:

1.You've a massive trust fund
2. You like loads of paperwork and learning new buzz words and loads of nonsense meetings to tick boxes.
3. You've a permanent job lined up for you in some deprived area of rural Ireland where you can buy a four-bedroom house for under €100,000.

excellent advice for any new teachers

williaint

evolving_doors wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. The poster was giving advice for post 2011.

Would you advise Orangebadger to go down the PME route in Ireland?

Eh depends how desperate I was to teach. I personally couldn't afford to pay €13k and have no income for 2 years to then just have temporary part-time hours. Especially when I could get £26k tax free to train as a Geography teacher in England. As horrific as the English system is, at least I wouldn't be in debt and I would definitely find full hours after training over there as conditions there are truly dire nobody stays in teaching. Obviously I understand relocation isn't an option for everyone especially those with family etc.

Once qualified, I could then work on my Masters or adding subjects and coming back to Ireland. This is exactly what I did and now I have a permanent full-time job in Ireland. It wasn't easy as I never wanted to live in England but it's better than training in Ireland and then moaning you can't get hours and being on endless temporary contracts etc. If you are that desperate to teach you'll find a way!

I still think it's rich to moan about pre 2011 salary scales...surely achieving pay equality for everyone is more helpful than whining that you can't afford to live on a pre 2011 salary! Count yourself lucky you got in just at the right time, you only had to spend one year of your life training, you didn't have to do an induction, you didn't have to do a Masters, and you earn 10% more!

gaiscioch

gaiscioch wrote: »

Somebody must say it so I'll bite. Even with a full-time CID/Permanent job with history and geography under the pre-2011 conditions the finances are very poor if you have to buy a home in Dublin, where the population growth and accordingly the teaching positions are most likely. With the understandable focus on getting the CID, not enough people who are thinking of teaching are looking beyond that to the finances and the changing culture/increasing bureaucratisation of teaching. This is a mistake. (I write this as somebody with a CID and at the top of the pre-2011 qualification allowance).

Three steps:

1. Check your anticipated salary on the ASTI website in the year you want to buy a home: Secondary level teachers' salaries

2. Multiply your above salary by 3.5 times (the limit for mortgage approval)

3. Go to myhome.ie and find what you can afford and in what area (guideline: if the house is very cheap, it's almost certainly an area with a declining population and therefore with a declining number of teaching positions).

Addenda:

1. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #1. Look dispassionately at those finances, and be cued into what your after tax income will be by checking the 10% PRD/ASC tax on top of all your other taxes on all your income above €32,000. With PAYE, USC, ASC and PRSI you'll have well over 50% of your income deducted by the state on all income above €32,000. Furthermore, your public service pension is an unquestionably yellow pack version of public service pensions 10 or 15 years ago.

2. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #2. And while the holidays will be great when you're young and single, there's absolutely no such thing as a free lunch. You'll be working through your holidays to pay for the childcare (c. €1000 per child, per month) and then the after school childcare which runs for the duration of their primary school (c. €500 per child, per month) and mortgage costs (in Dublin, where most jobs are, just be ready for a life of commuting in traffic that's only getting worse as the whole of Ireland moves here)- and then when the kids are raised you'll be working through your summers in your 50s and 60s (retirement currently is 68 but will almost certainly be more by the time you retire - yayyyy!) to maximise your AVCs or pay for your daughter's wedding or her house deposit...

Forget the teachers' holidays: it's a massive carrot when you start out that crucifies you down the road.

3. Don't get into teaching under any delusions #3. Teaching has changed: A huge cultural change is being imposed on teaching that you should be under no illusions about. It's far more bureaucratic, loaded with buzz words, schemes of work, department planning, collaborative learning and whatever else has failed in England which our genius fonctionnaires in the Department of Education have, in their unbridled wisdom, decided to adopt 30 years after they first appeared in England. This is "reform", in a decidedly Orwellian understanding of language. So while you might very well have a great grá for teaching as a spiritual, rewarding endeavour, don't be surprised if most of your daily work as a teacher is connected with administration and paper pushing and enduring the latest Pollyanna types giving you in-services with a whole heap of new buzz-words and warning you about using the buzzwords from last year. (oh, and don't ever use a red pen to correct!)

Do get into teaching if:

1.You've a massive trust fund
2. You like loads of paperwork and learning new buzz words and loads of nonsense meetings to tick boxes.
3. You've a permanent job lined up for you in some deprived area of rural Ireland where you can buy a four-bedroom house for under €100,000.

Assuming you're permanent, after 7 years, teachers will earn €43,000 + whatever allowances, + opportunities to earn extra by correcting exams.

Taking €43,000, and say two teachers are married gives a mortgage limit of €300,000.

With deposit, say €320,000.

There are currently 680 Apartments and 840 Houses < €320,000 in Dublin.

If teachers are at the lower end of the spectrum (as the tone here would suggest), that means most professionals in other industries must be better off.

Housing crisis? What housing crisis?

SligoBrewer

williaint wrote: »

I still think it's rich to moan about pre 2011 salary scales...surely achieving pay equality for everyone is more helpful than whining that you can't afford to live on a pre 2011 salary! Count yourself lucky you got in just at the right time, you only had to spend one year of your life training, you didn't have to do an induction, you didn't have to do a Masters, and you earn 10% more!

Just because other countries you've been in have it worse does not mean that we should stoop to their level or be thankful for what we have. We teach over 100 more hours than EU average. That's over 5 weeks more than anyone else.

These payscales for teachers were agreed 14 years ago, and teachers since then have not seen a pay increase. PRD, USC and increased PAYE have slashed net pay while increased living costs have reduced the buying power of a teacher. Gaiscioch has been on strike for me and every other LPT and voted against pay agreements that would have cemented the two tier pay system for new entrants. It would be simply naive and selfish to suggest that other teachers don't deserve a pay rise, because they do too.

I've no idea how long you've been teaching in Ireland but I would advise you to pipe down. Putting yourself up against teachers who have sacrificed their own pay to look out for yours and mine only serves two people well, Richard Bruton and Paschal Donohue. Teachers never agreed to paycuts for new entrants and were the one thorn in the side of the Ministers who cut pay to all public sector workers. I once thought that I was sold out by fellow professionals, and I was wrong. I wish I could take back all the ****ty jokes I made about it that I'm sure my co-workers bit their lip over. I don't know if you've ever been on strike but it's awful, and you should respect those who stood up for you. I wish the majority of my fellow LPTs had the same backbone.

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

Assuming you're permanent, ...

Lets not assume though. Here's the prospect for future teachers starting out--

http://www.educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sortBy=application_closing_date&sortDir=0&county_id=&vacancy_category_id=&post_type_id=

How many permanents do you see there?

salonfire wrote: »

....after 7 years,

7 Permanent full time years!

salonfire wrote: »

....teachers will earn €43,000

Have you ever met a teacher who's on 43K after 7 years?

I've met about 2 since I started teaching.

salonfire wrote: »

+ whatever allowances,

What allowances?

salonfire wrote: »

+ opportunities to earn extra by correcting exams.

Fair enough if you can get it.

salonfire wrote: »

Taking €43,000, and say two teachers are married gives a mortgage limit of €300,000.

I don't actually know any teachers married to other teachers. Maybe 1, but they're part-time.

salonfire wrote: »

With deposit, say €320,000.

There are currently 680 Apartments and 840 Houses < €320,000 in Dublin.

If teachers are at the lower end of the spectrum (as the tone here would suggest), that means most professionals in other industries must be better off.

Housing crisis? What housing crisis?

I'd estimate you'ld be more than 7 years before getting enough together for a house. But that's fair enough if you can get to that point.

Rewind back a bit.... initial part time hours + dublin rent +trying to save.
Would you honestly recommend anyone to move to Dublin to start their teaching career?

evolving_doors

evolving_doors wrote: »

Lets not assume though. Here's the prospect for future teachers starting out--

http://www.educationposts.ie/posts/second_level?sortBy=application_closing_date&sortDir=0&county_id=&vacancy_category_id=&post_type_id=

How many permanents do you see there?


7 Permanent full time years!

On one hand, teachers are saying there is a shortage, then on the other hand there is no permanent jobs?

Ireland is experiencing a growth in kids coming through the education system

evolving_doors wrote: »

What allowances?

The Flat Rate Expenses form Revenue which curiously teachers get but other professionals don't. And other professions have expenses such as professional attire as well. Worth €1000 in salary since it is pre-tax

evolving_doors wrote: »

I don't actually know any teachers married to other teachers. Maybe 1, but they're part-time.

If the teacher marries a non-teacher, then I assume they are even more comfortable as a household? Since, according to the tone of this forum, other workers are so much better paid.

evolving_doors wrote: »

Rewind back a bit.... initial part time hours + dublin rent +trying to save.
Would you honestly recommend anyone to move to Dublin to start their teaching career?

Yes. As I showed previously, accommodation is reasonably affordable for those on teaching salaries.

I should preface all this by saying I do believe a Dublin allowance that reflects the cost of living there should be given to public sector workers like in London. Otherwise they will be soon left behind in a quickly expanding economy. But of course, it suits Unions to use Dublin COL to ratchet up pay hikes for the entire country and are very quiet on the comparable advantage for those members in areas of low cost of living.

And obviously positions should be full time, not part time.

But as usual from the education workers, you are using part-time nature of jobs to deflect from the salaries (I initially responded to a post about salary/housing)

evolving_doors

salonfire wrote: »

On one hand, teachers are saying there is a shortage, then on the other hand there is no permanent jobs?

Ireland is experiencing a growth in kids coming through the education system





The Flat Rate Expenses form Revenue which curiously teachers get but other professionals don't. And other professions have expenses such as professional attire as well. Worth €1000 in salary since it is pre-tax






If the teacher marries a non-teacher, then I assume they are even more comfortable as a household? Since, according to the tone of this forum, other workers are so much better paid.





Yes. As I showed previously, accommodation is reasonably affordable for those on teaching salaries.

I should preface all this by saying I do believe a Dublin allowance that reflects the cost of living there should be given to public sector workers like in London. Otherwise they will be soon left behind in a quickly expanding economy. But of course, it suits Unions to use Dublin COL to ratchet up pay hikes for the entire country and are very quiet on the comparable advantage for those members in areas of low cost of living.

And obviously positions should be full time, not part time.

But as usual from the education workers, you are using part-time nature of jobs to deflect from the salaries (I initially responded to a post about salary/housing)

So did you find those permanent jobs yet?

There's full salary and pro-rata too btw.

SligoBrewer

salonfire wrote: »

Ireland is experiencing a growth in kids coming through the education system

I'd be worried if kids weren't growing tbf.

evolving_doors

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I'd be worried if kids weren't growing tbf.

You'd think that an increase in population will mean an increase in student/teacher ratio... and permanent contracts lol.
If anything though they'll be doing their damdest to keep this down. They just need to get over the peak at 2025... after that it'll drop off, so you don't want to hire 100's of new teachers then have the administrative nightmare of redeployment panels when population falls.

So they'll keep ploughing ahead... possibly a token decrease of 1 in the ptr. for the spin stories.
In education parents in primary aren't really concerned about secondary issues and vice versa (unless they have kids in both). e.g. the parents of 6th years are only now wondering about non-Teachers correcting. We can wait another few years for them to ask what's the story with this new Junior Cert.

Hence the main water muddying story being pumped out now is mobile phones :rolleyes:
Then they'll have the usual silly season blurbs about school uniforms, the cost of books or weight of school bags for August.

scoopmine

I know of teachers who have reinterviewed on skype. Would not have heard of this a few years back!

SligoBrewer

evolving_doors wrote: »

You'd think that an increase in population will mean an increase in student/teacher ratio... and permanent contracts lol.
If anything though they'll be doing their damdest to keep this down. They just need to get over the peak at 2025... after that it'll drop off, so you don't want to hire 100's of new teachers then have the administrative nightmare of redeployment panels when population falls.

I think you missed the joke.