As a tenant, do I have the right to get rid of furniture provided by the landlord?

sammyo

I'm renting a studio in Dublin, which is provided with furniture. As most rental places in Dublin/Ireland, the quality of this furniture is close to the bare minimum. Therefore I would like to replace the couch and wardrobe with my own (which I will buy and arrange myself). I have asked my landlord if I can get rid of these things, but the answer was that they have no place to store it. I have offered to just get rid of these two things (by selling them or having them picked up as bulky waste) instead, and to agree with the landlord that for the duration of my tenancy I won't ask/won't be provided with a new couch and/or wardrobe, as it was my choice to get rid of the initial ones. So far we haven't reached an agreement on this.

As a tenant, what are my rights regarding furniture provided by the landlord?

Black_Knight

sammyo wrote: »

I'm renting a studio in Dublin, which is provided with furniture. As most rental places in Dublin/Ireland, the quality of this furniture is close to the bare minimum. Therefore I would like to replace the couch and wardrobe with my own (which I will buy and arrange myself). I have asked my landlord if I can get rid of these things, but the answer was that they have no place to store it. I have offered to just get rid of these two things (by selling them or having them picked up as bulky waste) instead, and to agree with the landlord that for the duration of my tenancy I won't ask/won't be provided with a new couch and/or wardrobe, as it was my choice to get rid of the initial ones. So far we haven't reached an agreement on this.

As a tenant, what are my rights regarding furniture provided by the landlord?

Zero rights really. You can rent out storage yourself and store them there for the duration of your tenancy, but they're your responsibility.

They might be bare minimum, but they were bare minimum when you agreed to rent the place, furnished.

antiskeptic

sammyo wrote: »

I'm renting a studio in Dublin, which is provided with furniture. As most rental places in Dublin/Ireland, the quality of this furniture is close to the bare minimum. Therefore I would like to replace the couch and wardrobe with my own (which I will buy and arrange myself). I have asked my landlord if I can get rid of these things, but the answer was that they have no place to store it. I have offered to just get rid of these two things (by selling them or having them picked up as bulky waste) instead, and to agree with the landlord that for the duration of my tenancy I won't ask/won't be provided with a new couch and/or wardrobe, as it was my choice to get rid of the initial ones. So far we haven't reached an agreement on this.

As a tenant, what are my rights regarding furniture provided by the landlord?

I don't know the rules, but would look to the principle likely to inform the rules.

You rented a furnished flat as it was. That's the contract. The contents are his so without his permission you can't dump them. The time to negotiate on contents was during the signing of the contract

Look at it from his perspective. You dump and move on and he's left without furniture. If you said you'd leave behind the replacement then that'd be another matter

Glass fused light

sammyo wrote: »

As a tenant, what are my rights regarding furniture provided by the landlord?

You have the right use it or to store it offsite in a suitable storage unit at your own expense. It the end of the tenancy it should be returned with the property in the condition you received it (less reasonable usage ware).

If you want new furniture you could buy and gift the new items with the LL so that they are left in the property when you leave.

Sleeper12

sammyo wrote:

As a tenant, what are my rights regarding furniture provided by the landlord?

As far as the landlord is concerned you inspected the apartment before you signed the lease. I've no doubt that the furniture is shabby.

I see two solutions. 1. You store the furniture at your expense

2. Offer to donate the new furniture to the landlord

I can't see him agreeing to anything else since you already are in the property

Doop

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I see two solutions. 1. You store the furniture at your expense

2. Offer to donate the new furniture to the landlord

I can't see him agreeing to anything else since you already are in the property

Option 3:
- Agree with the LL that you will leave the place furnished upon termination of lease.
- Go buy your own decent stuff. Take it with you when leaving.
- Pick up cheap furniture from good will/charity shop and leave this behind in the studio. (I bet the original furniture is probably from the charity shop!)

Side note: everyone keeps saying you saw this furniture at the initial inspection, but come on we all know what the market is like if a prospective tenant starts commenting that the furniture is poor at the initial viewing asking for it to be replaced we all know what will happen,... a nice little line crossing out that prospective tenants name.

In reality a decent landlord would understand you are paying alot for your little studio and the decent thing would be to kit it out properly... and replace old damaged furniture but hey ho...

seamus

If any of the furniture is beyond its useful life, then the landlord is legally obliged to replace it. You could point this out to him and tell him that you're happy for him to just take it and throw it in a skip without replacing it.

antoinolachtnai

seamus wrote: »

If any of the furniture is beyond its useful life, then the landlord is legally obliged to replace it. You could point this out to him and tell him that you're happy for him to just take it and throw it in a skip without replacing it.

You have no real rights. You are going to have to negotiate something with the landlord. It is unlikely the landlord will agree to what you propose, or even respond to your proposal. He is going to consider it unreasonable.

_brendand_

Glass fused light wrote: »

You have the right use it or to store it offsite in a suitable storage unit at your own expense. It the end of the tenancy it should be returned with the property in the condition you received it (less reasonable usage ware).

If you want new furniture you could buy and gift the new items with the LL so that they are left in the property when you leave.

You say this but if you actually look at a lot of contracts nowadays you will find a clause along the lines of:

"the tenant agrees not to remove any items from the property except with the landlords consent"

So you don't have a 'right' as such.

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

If any of the furniture is beyond its useful life, then the landlord is legally obliged to replace it. You could point this out to him and tell him that you're happy for him to just take it and throw it in a skip without replacing it.

For it to be beyound its useful life, though, it would need to be actually fallen apart and infixable.

If it's bare minumum, then it's not in that state.

Moomintroll99

Furniture in rentals in Ireland is a bit like gun laws in America.

Everyone else in the world just can't understand why it's like that and why this otherwise reasonably functional country, with many lovely people in it, doesn't just change to a better arrangement. But if you mention the weirdness of it, you're deluged with replies about how it has to be this way and no of course it can't change, how could it ever change?

If you shyly try to mention that, well it's actually different in some other countries, such as, let's see, most of them...you are bombarded with answers about how this particular country is different and what works in these so called 'other countries' can't possibly work here, and in fact if these so called 'other countries' and their so called 'nice rentals where you bring your own nice furniture instead of living with stuff someone found in a dumpster' are so great, why don't you just go back there then and enjoy these 'new fridges you bought yourself' and these 'beds that only you have slept in' and do this strange 'just taking responsibility for fixing your own washing machine if it breaks'?

You could do what we did and chuck out the stuff that was truly gross/dangerous and then just replace it from the 'crap furniture no one wants but which is needed to ensure terms of your lease aren't broken when you leave' black market, where horrible mattresses and semi functional whitegoods endlessly circulate throughout the country.

I don't know, maybe it does actually have to be this way.

Maybe it's some kind of secret fiscal plan, where the small amounts of cash changing hands for third hand mattresses and dubious fridges somehow props up the economy, and then the government and banks work together to make sure no one can get mortgages to buy places, thus ensuring the bottom won't fall out of the third hand mattress market overnight?

Loveache

You could ring Threshold and ask. If you have it replaced with the same or similar items at the end of the tenancy I don't see why it should be a problem. The landlord won't be 'out of pocket' (lol) and you don't have to live with filthy bockety crap in the meantime.

Graces7

We once asked a landlord to remove the beds as we have our own. AFTER the rental was accepted but before we moved in.

He did so but added two huge old wardrobes...

PhoenixParker

From another perspective.

On the day you move out, the landlord arrives to find these items of furniture are not there.

In this case, one rickety wardrobe and one out dated uncomfortable couch.

How much is the landlord entitled to deduct from your deposit?
How much do you need a good reference?

Del2005

Moomintroll99 wrote: »

Furniture in rentals in Ireland is a bit like gun laws in America.

Everyone else in the world just can't understand why it's like that and why this otherwise reasonably functional country, with many lovely people in it, doesn't just change to a better arrangement. But if you mention the weirdness of it, you're deluged with replies about how it has to be this way and no of course it can't change, how could it ever change?

If you shyly try to mention that, well it's actually different in some other countries, such as, let's see, most of them...you are bombarded with answers about how this particular country is different and what works in these so called 'other countries' can't possibly work here, and in fact if these so called 'other countries' and their so called 'nice rentals where you bring your own nice furniture instead of living with stuff someone found in a dumpster' are so great, why don't you just go back there then and enjoy these 'new fridges you bought yourself' and these 'beds that only you have slept in' and do this strange 'just taking responsibility for fixing your own washing machine if it breaks'?

You could do what we did and chuck out the stuff that was truly gross/dangerous and then just replace it from the 'crap furniture no one wants but which is needed to ensure terms of your lease aren't broken when you leave' black market, where horrible mattresses and semi functional whitegoods endlessly circulate throughout the country.

I don't know, maybe it does actually have to be this way.

Maybe it's some kind of secret fiscal plan, where the small amounts of cash changing hands for third hand mattresses and dubious fridges somehow props up the economy, and then the government and banks work together to make sure no one can get mortgages to buy places, thus ensuring the bottom won't fall out of the third hand mattress market overnight?

In countries with white walls and no furniture rentals a lot of people end up with junk furniture from 2nd hand shops or websites, some even from the side of the road, and end up with bigger problems than a few people having slept on the mattress before. Neither system is perfect.

Glass fused light

_brendand_ wrote: »

You say this but if you actually look at a lot of contracts nowadays you will find a clause along the lines of:

"the tenant agrees not to remove any items from the property except with the landlords consent"

So you don't have a 'right' as such.

True if thats included in the contract the OP signed away that option.

I remember being at a viewing in a really nice well kept place, the agent noticed that the table and chairs had been 'moved' from where the agents photos showed them, she looked at me and said she was going to have a word with the tenant to immediately move them back per the photos. She was total serious :eek:

Glass fused light

PhoenixParker wrote: »

From another perspective.

On the day you move out, the landlord arrives to find these items of furniture are not there.

In this case, one rickety wardrobe and one out dated uncomfortable couch.

How much is the landlord entitled to deduct from your deposit?
How much do you need a good reference?

The LL has the right to get the property back and is entitled to make a complaint to the Gardai for theft/criminal damage of the missing property.

PhoenixParker

Glass fused light wrote: »

The LL has the right to get the property back and is entitled to make a complaint to the Gardai for theft/criminal damage of the missing property.

I've never heard of items missing from an inventory being treated as missing property or theft by the Gardaì.

The items in question will have a total value of under €100 which is what the OP will be liable for from the deposit.

I can't imagine the Gards will have much interest in such low value goods.

Doop

Gaurds wouldn't let you finish your sentence! Viewed as a civil matter.

Fol20

Loveache wrote: »

You could ring Threshold and ask. If you have it replaced with the same or similar items at the end of the tenancy I don't see why it should be a problem. The landlord won't be 'out of pocket' (lol) and you don't have to live with filthy bockety crap in the meantime.

Do not do the above. If the ll doesn’t give consent. You cannot do it

check_six

Moomintroll99 wrote: »

You could do what we did and chuck out the stuff that was truly gross/dangerous and then just replace it from the 'crap furniture no one wants but which is needed to ensure terms of your lease aren't broken when you leave' black market, where horrible mattresses and semi functional whitegoods endlessly circulate throughout the country.

This is the crazy reality of renting now.

Stick the old banjaxed furniture up as free to take away. Some other soul will be looking to fill a place they are leaving and will be happy to take it away.

Fill the place with your own good stuff.

When you are planning to leave, hit the free ads and refill the place with old banjaxed furniture again.

Say nothing to LL.

In my own experience I went to view a place and it had an array of nice furniture and I was only too delighted to sign up. Turns out I was looking at the previous tenants stuff. When I moved in there was piles of crap broken chairs, tables, and beds that the landlord point blank refused to remove or replace. Exasperated at trying to do things "the right way", I switched to a more pragmatic approach like the above.

Fol20

check_six wrote: »

This is the crazy reality of renting now.

Stick the old banjaxed furniture up as free to take away. Some other soul will be looking to fill a place they are leaving and will be happy to take it away.

Fill the place with your own good stuff.

When you are planning to leave, hit the free ads and refill the place with old banjaxed furniture again.

Say nothing to LL.

In my own experience I went to view a place and it had an array of nice furniture and I was only too delighted to sign up. Turns out I was looking at the previous tenants stuff. When I moved in there was piles of crap broken chairs, tables, and beds that the landlord point blank refused to remove or replace. Exasperated at trying to do things "the right way", I switched to a more pragmatic approach like the above.

Again ignore the above. It might sound practical to do that but once the ll finds out. You can guarantee loosing your deposit and a reference without his consent

Graham

check_six wrote: »

This is the crazy reality of renting now.

Stick the old banjaxed furniture up as free to take away. Some other soul will be looking to fill a place they are leaving and will be happy to take it away.

Fill the place with your own good stuff.

When you are planning to leave, hit the free ads and refill the place with old banjaxed furniture again.

Say nothing to LL.

In my own experience I went to view a place and it had an array of nice furniture and I was only too delighted to sign up. Turns out I was looking at the previous tenants stuff. When I moved in there was piles of crap broken chairs, tables, and beds that the landlord point blank refused to remove or replace. Exasperated at trying to do things "the right way", I switched to a more pragmatic approach like the above.

Your "pragmatic approach" could quite easily see the OP saying goodbye to their deposit at the end of the tenancy.

Fol20

Because you agreed to have the furniture there when you moved in. It’s touch luck and time to suck it up.

The only compromise that could be made hear that’s mutually beneficial is if you A. Strike a deal with your ll to go half I’m getting newish furniture. B. You buy it and leave it there once you leave as long as the ll is ok with the stuff you buy. C. Rent storage or if you know a friend looking for something give it to them for the duration of your lease and move it back in after

check_six

Fol20 wrote: »

Again ignore the above. It might sound practical to do that but once the ll finds out. You can guarantee loosing your deposit and a reference without his consent

I don't agree. You think a LL cares what set of broken furniture is in their rental? If they cared they'd put in proper stuff in the first place. I imagine they only care that *something* is there so they can keep it on the tax forms.

Graham

check_six wrote: »

I don't agree. You think a LL cares what set of broken furniture is in their rental? If they cared they'd put in proper stuff in the first place. I imagine they only care that *something* is there so they can keep it on the tax forms.

It is safe to assume you are not speaking on behalf of the actual landlord in question so you are in absolutely no position to advise the OP on what the landlord does/does not care about.

check_six

Graham wrote: »

Your "pragmatic approach" could quite easily see the OP saying goodbye to their deposit at the end of the tenancy.

The rental manifest will say "one set of broken furniture" (or equivalent). There will still be one set of broken furniture at end of tenancy. LL will not notice or care.

Fol20

check_six wrote: »

I don't agree. You think a LL cares what set of broken furniture is in their rental? If they cared they'd put in proper stuff in the first place. I imagine they only care that *something* is there so they can keep it on the tax forms.

Yes we do care as we picked out the stuff. I have never withheld deposit yet as Iv had a good relationship with all my tenants however if I saw that one of my tenants did the above. You can guarantee I’m keeping their deposit to fund a new couch and the disposal of whatever they bought. You don’t own the couch, your renting the couch so technically it is theft if you do the above. Think about it the other way. How about you have a favorite top that you own. It might not look great but you like it. One day your misses sees it and says to herself, I don’t like the color it’s all faded and sure I’ll get him another top.she dumps your top. How would you feel if she didn’t ask for your permission first?

Fol20

The key here is permission. Some ll maybe more easy going than other but at a minimum you need to be granted permission. For example Iv talked to some tenants where they weren’t even allowed to change a lightbulb so every ll opinion can vary. Your much better having open dialogue with the ll to see where you stand.
Nb: if he does give you the go ahead to dump it. Make sure you have it in writing just so you cover yourself as well.

PhoenixParker

Fol20 wrote: »

Yes we do care as we picked out the stuff. I have never withheld deposit yet as Iv had a good relationship with all my tenants however if I saw that one of my tenants did the above. You can guarantee I’m keeping their deposit to fund a new couch and the disposal of whatever they bought. You don’t own the couch, your renting the couch so technically it is theft if you do the above. Think about it the other way. How about you have a favorite top that you own. It might not look great but you like it. One day your misses sees it and says to herself, I don’t like the color it’s all faded and sure I’ll get him another top.she dumps your top. How would you feel if she didn’t ask for your permission first?

If there's no new couch then there are no disposal fees.

All you're entitled to withhold from the deposit is the current value of the couch that's gone, not the cost of a new couch.

_Brian

inthink if my tenants came up with the notion of dumping my furniture I’d offer to sell it to them. Then when it’s theirs they could do whatever they wanted with iT.

Samuel T. Cogley

check_six wrote: »

The rental manifest will say "one set of broken furniture" (or equivalent). There will still be one set of broken furniture at end of tenancy. LL will not notice or care.

The vast majority of LL's own 2 or less properties. Even in my addled state I can remember what the fecking chairs looked like when I put them in.

Glass fused light

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I've never heard of items missing from an inventory being treated as missing property or theft by the Gardaì.

The items in question will have a total value of under €100 which is what the OP will be liable for from the deposit.

I can't imagine the Gards will have much interest in such low value goods.

Doop wrote: »

Gaurds wouldn't let you finish your sentence! Viewed as a civil matter.

While they may be of a low economic value decide that they are only worth 100e is a bit of a leap?
This is not a broken item which was reported to the LL these are 2 bits of bulkey furniture which the OP would be removing and disposing of without permission of the owner.
The Garda may view it as a civil matter but the law does not.
The Gardai don't have much of a choice when it comes to accepting a report of a crime. If the value is under 500e the LL can even file a report online. They may not be interested in dealing with it and not want to assign any resources but if the LL wants to escalate its usually easier for the Garda to make a call to the tenant and advise they and the LL come to an agreement.

Fol20

PhoenixParker wrote: »

If there's no new couch then there are no disposal fees.

All you're entitled to withhold from the deposit is the current value of the couch that's gone, not the cost of a new couch.

Technically your correct, however they can bring me to RTB if they think they can dump my item without any repercussions of me at least trying to get a couch that would be like for like.

Samuel T. Cogley

I expect that after eight years the items concerned will be considered to be of zero value. That doesn't stop a theft complaint being made though IMHO, assuming the dishonesty mens rea is met.

Loveache

If I were planning to be there for a few years, I would buy cheap but workable furniture from Argos or ikea and then leave it behind as replacement for the crap stuff.

Bob24

Doop wrote: »

Option 3:
- Agree with the LL that you will leave the place furnished upon termination of lease.
- Go buy your own decent stuff. Take it with you when leaving.
- Pick up cheap furniture from good will/charity shop and leave this behind in the studio. (I bet the original furniture is probably from the charity shop!)

That's not really an option. No sane landlord would agree to having their furniture removed with no guarantee of what they are getting back when tenant leaves the property (agreeing to leave the place furnished is too open to interpretation in terms of when a properly furnished property is).

I think the other 2 are the only viable options. Or if the furnitures looks really bad try to convince the landlord to be new ones.

4ensic15

PhoenixParker wrote: »

I've never heard of items missing from an inventory being treated as missing property or theft by the Gardaì.

The items in question will have a total value of under €100 which is what the OP will be liable for from the deposit.

I can't imagine the Gards will have much interest in such low value goods.

I know a former tenant who was convicted of taking items to her new house.

The_Conductor

This thread- is why Ireland needs to seriously reappraise its relationship with 'furnished accommodation'.
The amount of rental dwellings being let unfurnished- is rising- but nowhere near as fast as it should be.
There is a viable demand from both tenants and landlords- for unfurnished units- its nutty that more landlords and tenants don't embrace the concept.

antoinolachtnai

Tenancies are certainly getting longer than they used to be. This will drive a change I suppose.

dudara

The furniture (no matter how shoddy or broken) is the landlord's property. You have no legal right to do anything with it.

You need to negotiate with the landlord on options. If he won't accept, then you'll have to figure out a plan B, like putting the furniture in storage somewhere, so that it can be safely returned at the end of the tenancy.

Fol20

The_Conductor wrote: »

This thread- is why Ireland needs to seriously reappraise its relationship with 'furnished accommodation'.
The amount of rental dwellings being let unfurnished- is rising- but nowhere near as fast as it should be.
There is a viable demand from both tenants and landlords- for unfurnished units- its nutty that more landlords and tenants don't embrace the concept.

From my dealing with rental. The vast majority of people want furnished as it’s the norm. If you go against the grain(personally I would love to have the German/American model of unfurnished), we as a landlord loose out on more money as they take longer to let. People that move into them generally stay longer however there is a reason why you don’t see many in daft.
I hope it changes in the future however it will be a slow burner if it does. The fact that the minimum standard requires a microwave shows exactly where we are the government want us to go. Some people don’t even use a microwave yet it’s minimum standard aparently.

TheChizler

How far do they go in other places? How much of a shell is the next tenant given to work with and what are the limits of what they could do to the place?

IMO it should be allowed to provide the 4 walls and windows and nothing else, give some tenants the option to install/replace kitchens, floors, renovate bathrooms if they wanted to (provided they can prove they have the ability to fund the work beforehand), instead we have laws specifying the minimum number of rings on the hob. There's no chance of this happening while short leases and lack of security of tenure (for responsible paying tenants) are the norm though. I'd love to take a bit of pride in and renovate my apartment beyond the base cost furnishings, appliances, and kitchen installed but even if I was allowed I would never take on the risk while I could be removed even when fulfilling all my obligations as a tenant. I'd need to be guaranteed at least 10-15 years in the place (as long as I'm paying rent) for that. Hence I intend to buy so I can have a bit of control over my home (cost of rent at the moment aside).

There'll always be a market for furnished, cheap, short-term (2-3 years) rentals, but I think we need some sort of move towards the above.

Moomintroll99

The furniture (no matter how shoddy or broken) is the landlord's property. You have no legal right to do anything with it.

Yeah but what about when it's not a matter of taste but safety? In our rental, before we bought our current place, there was a table with a broken leg for example. We had no idea, served food to our kids the first night and wham! Broken plates on the floor, kids screaming in fear as the thing collapsed.

Similarly, one mattress was infested with silverfish, actually living inside the mattress. Our four year old was undergoing chemotherapy and was supposed to be in a 100% germ free environment between hospital visits. There was no way any sane parent would allow him to sleep on the mattress provided. If we had, and he had caught an infection and it had necessitated yet more time in hospital/been fatal or whatever, who would have been responsible? Same with the mould etc.

But then again, no sane parent would make a big fuss about this stuff at a time of such severe rental shortages, because the only thing worse than having a sick kid would have been having a sick kid and no home to live in.

We were in no way short of money, having sold our place in Australia and just looking for a place to buy, we only rented for 8 months, were happy to buy stuff, coming from countries where buying stuff for your home is quite normal, rented or otherwise.

So if we, in our position of relative wealth, couldn't solve this issue and deliver ourselves safe, clean rental housing, who could?