Replacing kitchen ceiling light- HELP!!! too many wires

BudEliJackson

Hi all, be patient with me as single mama with 3 furbabies here- hyperactive ... decided to replace my old kitchen ceiling light as wasnt working, took the old one off, filled holes, painted it, perfect job, that was yesterday ... today drill wouldnt start so ended up making pretty big hole in ceiling- never mind most important is to get this light up as pitch black in kitchen!

I tried- failed! lost light in bathroom as well now ... so theres just too many wires and not enough holes in the light unit-

the unit has 3 holes- live, neutral and earth ...
I have 5 cables hanging off ceiling! - 3 brown which I would pronounce as live, 1 blue which I would guess neutral and 1 green/ yellow which should be earth (this earth cable wasnt connected to the previous old light unit but found it hanging there) so the question is how do I fit 3 brown - live cables in the 1 hole for the live cable in the unit? Am I missing anything? lost please help thanks!!

ZENER

When the switch that controls that light is activated, how many lights come on ?

Unless there is more than one light fitting controlled from that switch then it's very odd to have more Browns (Live) than Blues (Neutral).

Ken

Risteard81

ZENER wrote: »

When the switch that controls that light is activated, how many lights come on ?

Unless there is more than one light fitting controlled from that switch then it's very odd to have more Browns (Live) than Blues (Neutral).

Ken

It's completely normal with a three-plate system to have more phase conductors than neutral conductors. There will be both permanent phase and switched phase. Really though if you're not sure what you're doing then ring an Electrician. It's the only safe advice.

BudEliJackson

ZENER wrote: »

When the switch that controls that light is activated, how many lights come on ?

Unless there is more than one light fitting controlled from that switch then it's very odd to have more Browns (Live) than Blues (Neutral).

Ken

Hi! when I hit that switch, jist that one light in kitchen comes on - well used to (not after I went digging in it) , I was just thinking- 1 wire switch, 1 wire into that light and the wire coming out of it for another light in the same room? - there is another light in the same room which stopped working since I took old kitchen light off... but I cannot see how the wires can fit all in that tiny hole in the unit thanks for help!

Steve

While I sympathise with your situation, the fact that you say "lost light in bathroom as well now" means you have disconnected something in the original ceiling rose without knowing how to put it back.

For the sake of your kids, get a competent electrician to fix it.

BudEliJackson

Risteard81 wrote: »

It's completely normal with a three-plate system to have more phase conductors than neutral conductors. There will be both permanent phase and switched phase. Really though if you're not sure what you're doing then ring an Electrician. It's the only safe advice.

Thanks, my electrician moved away haha so thought this would be a small and easy job ... I just cant see how 3 wires fit in that tiny hole ...

BudEliJackson

Steve wrote: »

While I sympathise with your situation, the fact that you say "lost light in bathroom as well now" means you have disconnected something in the original ceiling rose without knowing how to put it back.

For the sake of your kids, get a competent electrician to fix it.

Thanks ... kids are safe in bed snoring but I see where you coming from (I believe the fuse went when I switched it on that is why bathroom light is gone)

Steve

BudEliJackson wrote: »

Thanks, my electrician moved away haha so thought this would be a small and easy job ... I just cant see how 3 wires fit in that tiny hole ...

I't entirely possible that the 3 wires don't actually go in the same terminal... Unless you know what they do or took a photo before you disconnected them then nobody can say.

_Brian

There is no help you can get here now as you disconnected the light without taking note of the setup, an easy mistake but a crucial mistake.

Please follow the advice above and call a spark out to get it running safely.

BudEliJackson

Steve wrote: »

I't entirely possible that the 3 wires don't actually go in the same terminal... Unless you know what they do or took a photo before you disconnected them then nobody can say.

I didnt take a picture

Ak84

As an electrician I would advise you to call an electrician. The colours are not always wired the way you think. They should be , but in this case, and for safety , you need someone who knows how to figure it out.

_Brian

Poor you I can understand the frustration but you’ll need someone to now determine the difference in the browns so they can be reattached correctly.
Some will be permanently live while some part of the switch circuit.

Steve

BudEliJackson wrote: »

Thanks ... kids are safe in bed snoring but I see where you coming from (I believe the fuse went when I switched it on that is why bathroom light is gone)

I'm not even going to offer a guess as to why that happened, really, you need an electrician to trace the wires and figure out what is on the far end of them.

Glad the kids are safe, keep them that way

BudEliJackson

_Brian wrote: »

Poor you I can understand the frustration but you’ll need someone to now determine the difference in the browns so they can be reattached correctly.
Some will be permanently live while some part of the switch circuit.

Thanks, well, learned a lesson anyways, any electrician here close to Dublin 5 / Raheny that has time tomorrow ? haha

BudEliJackson

Steve wrote: »

I'm not even going to offer a guess as to why that happened, really, you need an electrician to trace the wires and figure out what is on the far end of them.

Glad the kids are safe, keep them that way

Thanks, kids have 4 legs and fluffy tails and I 'll do anything for them

EdgeCase

The colours can be totally meaningless, especially in older installations. The only way someone can be sure is to test each wire.

Sorry, but, with all due respect, I would have to agree, you're out of your depth and should call an electrician.

_Brian

BudEliJackson wrote: »

Thanks, kids have 4 legs and fluffy tails and I 'll do anything for them

They’re not kids so unless they’re goats.

BudEliJackson

EdgeCase wrote: »

The colours can be totally meaningless, especially in older installations. The only way someone can be sure is to test each wire.

Sorry, but, with all due respect, I would have to agree, you're out of your depth and should call an electrician.

Thanks, I think we all agreed on that , sadly

BudEliJackson

_Brian wrote: »

They’re not kids so unless they’re goats.

My babies

_Brian

BudEliJackson wrote: »

My babies

Pets.

mickuhaha

Sounds like who ever wired this put the switch on the neutral wire or got the colour wires mixed up. Hopefully the 3 together are not live.

Steve

mickuhaha wrote: »

Sounds like who ever wired this put the switch on the neutral wire or got the colour wires mixed up. Hopefully the 3 together are not live.

That's not what I got from the description. If you don't fully understand then maybe you shouldn't comment. No offence intended, just don't want someone getting misleading information.

mickuhaha

Steve wrote: »

That's not what I got from the description. If you don't fully understand then maybe you shouldn't comment. No offence intended, just don't want someone getting misleading information.

Thanks for the feedback. Maybe I picked it up Wong too but disconnected one light with 4 wires, in use 3 brown and one blue, one light switch. Now a light in the bathroom is not working. So either the trip switch for the circuit went killing two parallel circuits or the 3 brown are live and are now not touching to complete the bathroom circuit or they are neutral and the blue is the live.if there was more than one switch I would not have said it but it's more common then people think that lights get wired up incorrectly. I'm not saying it happened here just to be careful.

EdgeCase

It's one reason why I think the present-day French approach is far more logical. They do all the wiring in a ceiling rose that sits completely flat on the ceiling. There's a small recessed socket on the front of it and you can fix any light fitting over it. It's very compact and completely flat, so it fits right behind any type of luminary you can think of, and can also mount many of them to a built in hook.

So, for DIY, all you have to do is be able to wire a plug. It just presents you with two pins for live and neutral and an earth.

It just seems like a. much more logical and safe approach, as most people will try to wire lights themselves and also most fancier fittings are not really capable of being used as junction boxes. You regularly see multiple, fairly heavy gauge wires rammed into tiny connectors on the back of fittings here, that were clearly only designed for 1 wire.

The French standards is relatively new, it became mandatory in the 2001 version of NF C15-100 which is the equivalent of our ET101

Called a Dispositif de connexion luminaire (DCL)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispositif_de_connexion_luminaire

Explains it (In French)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDjUXuZFIdo

The little ceiling fitting is a bit like an RJ45 or RJ11 phone jack, it locks into place similarly with a latch and there's a hook on the exterior (which you can replace with a flat screw quite easily if you don't need it).

You can hang a lamp of several KG from the - hook, which covers most installations of pendants or chandeliers.

Simple pendants can hang directly from the plug, as it's capable of holding quite a bit of weight (at least as much as Irish - ceiling rose).

They also come with a simple plug in lamp holder in BC or ES format so you can just plug in a basic lamp if you're doing construction / using them in a shed or whatever you don't want a fancy lamp.

I think it's something we should adopt. There's no particular reason why it wouldn't work here too.

You can also install them in the wall for side lights and have completely DIY friendly changeable fittings or, you can use them as fixed point switchable / dimmable lamp sockets, much like we use the old BS 546 round pin plugs.

I just think it's a brilliant idea as it means you can have all the complex rose wiring in the fitting, totally independent of the luminary and away from any DIY projects.

Not only that, but they're installed with a simple circular cut into the ceiling with a specific drill bit, a round box goes in et voila .. neat installation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_PjHix6M8

Same with their sockets and switches these days. Everything goes into a round box drilled with a special bit, so you don't have to cut boxes, even if the sockets / switches are square. Doubles, triples etc, just use multiple circular holes. You just mark the wall with a template, insert drill and off you go.

BudEliJackson

EdgeCase wrote: »

It's one reason why I think the present-day French approach is far more logical. They do all the wiring in a ceiling rose that sits completely flat on the ceiling. There's a small recessed socket on the front of it and you can fix any light fitting over it. It's very compact and completely flat, so it fits right behind any type of luminary you can think of, and can also mount many of them to a built in hook.

So, for DIY, all you have to do is be able to wire a plug. It just presents you with two pins for live and neutral and an earth.

It just seems like a. much more logical and safe approach, as most people will try to wire lights themselves and also most fancier fittings are not really capable of being used as junction boxes. You regularly see multiple, fairly heavy gauge wires rammed into tiny connectors on the back of fittings here, that were clearly only designed for 1 wire.

The French standards is relatively new, it became mandatory in the 2001 version of NF C15-100 which is the equivalent of our ET101

Called a Dispositif de connexion luminaire (DCL)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispositif_de_connexion_luminaire

Explains it (In French)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDjUXuZFIdo

The little ceiling fitting is a bit like an RJ45 or RJ11 phone jack, it locks into place similarly with a latch and there's a hook on the exterior (which you can replace with a flat screw quite easily if you don't need it).

You can hang a lamp of several KG from the - hook, which covers most installations of pendants or chandeliers.

Simple pendants can hang directly from the plug, as it's capable of holding quite a bit of weight (at least as much as Irish - ceiling rose).

They also come with a simple plug in lamp holder in BC or ES format so you can just plug in a basic lamp if you're doing construction / using them in a shed or whatever you don't want a fancy lamp.

I think it's something we should adopt. There's no particular reason why it wouldn't work here too.

You can also install them in the wall for side lights and have completely DIY friendly changeable fittings or, you can use them as fixed point switchable / dimmable lamp sockets, much like we use the old BS 546 round pin plugs.

I just think it's a brilliant idea as it means you can have all the complex rose wiring in the fitting, totally independent of the luminary and away from any DIY projects.

Not only that, but they're installed with a simple circular cut into the ceiling with a specific drill bit, a round box goes in et voila .. neat installation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN_PjHix6M8

Same with their sockets and switches these days. Everything goes into a round box drilled with a special bit, so you don't have to cut boxes, even if the sockets / switches are square. Doubles, triples etc, just use multiple circular holes. You just mark the wall with a template, insert drill and off you go.

this sounds savage but im still without light in here lol

mickuhaha

Can you post some pictures

BudEliJackson

mickuhaha wrote: »

Can you post some pictures

thanks, here it is

Stoner

Bud

It's not possible to offer help from that image

The lads need to see the colour of the cables

Sleeper12

Stoner wrote:

It's not possible to offer help from that image

Stoner wrote:

The lads need to see the colour of the cables

In fairness the photo was taken at 1am by the looks of it and there's no light in the kitchen. Oh the irony

EdgeCase

There's nothing you can tell by looking at the wires. You need an electrical to actually check what's connected to what. Even if you could see the colours in that photo, they don't signify anything in particular.

BudEliJackson

Sleeper12 wrote: »

In fairness the photo was taken at 1am by the looks of it and there's no light in the kitchen. Oh the irony

haha true attaching picture during this lovely sunny day!

TomOnBoard

BudEliJackson wrote: »

haha true attaching picture during this lovely sunny day!

If those 3 reds were connected to the same point on the original light fitting, it must have been one huge connection point. With the end doubled over like that, the point would need to be 3 or 4 mm in diameter! Maybe there was a terminal block on the original?? Do you still have it? If so, show a photo of that.

BudEliJackson

TomOnBoard wrote: »

If those 3 reds were connected to the same point on the original light fitting, it must have been one huge connection point. With the end doubled over like that, the point would need to be 3 or 4 mm in diameter! Maybe there was a terminal block on the original?? Do you still have it? If so, show a photo of that.

Original still here- I think the 2 reds were in 1 port and blue and another red in the second one, the wire for earth wasnt connected

TomOnBoard

BudEliJackson wrote: »

Original still here- I think the 2 reds were in 1 port and blue and another red in the second one, the wire for earth wasnt connected

So, which of the reds was in with the blue?

BudEliJackson

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So, which of the reds was in with the blue?

If I knew, I wouldnt be asking here lol

Steve

I know this won't help, but you really need an electrician.

The NYMJ (white 3-core) has a brown going somewhere, any idea where? The earth does not look like it was ever connected despite the metal luminaire having an earth terminal.

I could suggest a way to figure it out but I can't in good conscious because the only way would be to work live - that's why it's a job for an electrician (or at the least a competent person, this isn't covered by REC).

Shoddy workmanship as well, looks like the original installer got a rat to chew the insulation off the wires.

Stoner

EdgeCase wrote:

There's nothing you can tell by looking at the wires. You need an electrical to actually check what's connected to what. Even if you could see the colours in that photo, they don't signify anything in particular.

You can tell plenty by looking at the wires

BudEliJackson

Hi all thought I would update you- got electrician in yesterday morning and kitchen and bathroom lights working, wohooo

Found this funny - came home last night to find out none of lights upstairs are working

happy Friday