CBD oil for breast cancer

LucyIrish06

Hey folks! Hoping one of you could help me out.
My aunty has just got diagnosed with breast cancer and is due to start her chemo soon, I've heard great things about CBD oil and I was wondering which one would be best to buy. I've tried researching it but it seems like some websites are contradicting themselves and I'm just not sure and don't want to buy something that's too weak. I've found a couple of good CBD oils that has lab results proving what's in it but they don't ship to Ireland.
Would anyone have any ideas on what's good and where to buy?
Thanks in advance!

Cordell

Just fyi and to avoid disappointment: I got the one sold in Nature's Hands, it did f.a. for my back pain, I even chucked the whole bottle (or what was left in it, like 3/4) and still nothing except the horrid taste. I think the natural cold pressing method does nothing, or maybe it's the lack of THC, or maybe something else, but I felt nothing and got no better.

LucyIrish06

Yeah that's the thing, i dont really trust anything bought in Irish shops like Holland and Barretts or chemists as they don't show you any lad results so really you don't know what your getting. Anything with proven lab results can cost anything from 60e upwards if its legit so you know its good but all the good stuff comes from America but they wont deliver to Ireland

Grayditch

Medipen seems to be an actual high dosage, unlike a lot of sites who say they are. That's inhaled, though.

locum-motion

Here's the principal question: What do you want CBD Oil for?

If the answer to that question is "Duh, well I just said it! It's for Breast Cancer!", then it is completely illegal under Irish law for ANYBODY to provide you with CBD Oil.

Why?

Breast Cancer is a disease.

Anything provided to a person with the intention of treating a disease is, legally speaking, a medicine.

A medicine can be provided to a person in a couple of different ways:

1) An appropriately licensed pharmaceutical manufacturer has applied for and been granted a Product Authorisation. The law, or the Product Authorisation, or both, will specify whether the Medicinal Product can be supplied by a corner shop, or a pharmacy, or only within a hospital etc, and will also specify whether you need a prescription for it etc.
No Product Authorisation has been granted for any Medicinal Product containing CBD oil, so therefore this route does not apply.

2) An appropriately licensed Medical Practitioner can write a prescription for products that are licensed in other jurisdictions if it is medically appropriate to do so and if there is no suitable product available that is authorised in Ireland. This prescription can then be dispensed in a registered pharmacy. These are so-called "ULM"s or UnLicensed Medicines.
You would find it very difficult to find a doctor that would be happy to sign his name to such a prescription, and to find a pharmacist willing to dispense it. So, this route is basically out the window too.

There is no option 3 for the supply of a medicine in Ireland.

Now, I know people are going to say "Ah, but CBD Oil is not a medicine, it's a food supplement.", and that's true... ish!

There are people/companies that are trying to sell CBD Oil as if it were a food supplement, which is fine as far as it goes. But the moment that the seller makes any kind of medicinal claim for what their product does, then it immediately becomes subject to Medicines legislation, and can only be supplied under 1) or 2) above.

And the claim does not have to be specific: if a prospective customer asks a prospective seller for something to treat a disease or illness, then the seller has effectively made a medicinal claim for whatever they pick up off the shelf to sell. So if the conditions at 1) and 2) above aren't met, the seller has broken the law.

locum-motion

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

Yeah that's the thing, i dont really trust anything bought in Irish shops like Holland and Barretts or chemists as they don't show you any lad results so really you don't know what your getting. Anything with proven lab results can cost anything from 60e upwards if its legit so you know its good but all the good stuff comes from America but they wont deliver to Ireland

See my reply in Post #6 for an explanation for why it's illegal for a shop in Ireland to make any claims about results for the product they're selling, and why it would be illegal for an American supplier to ship it here.

Cordell

If the answer to that question is "Duh, well I just said it! It's for Breast Cancer!", then it is completely illegal under Irish law

Probably the intent is to alleviate the side effects of chemo (OP: "is due to start her chemo") and pain, not treating the actual cancer.

locum-motion

Cordell wrote: »

Probably the intent is to alleviate the side effects of chemo (OP: "is due to start her chemo") and pain, not treating the actual cancer.

My point remains. If it's provided with the intention of alleviating any medical condition, it's subject to medicines legislation. Side effects of a treatment are a medical condition.

Cordell

Well, when I asked the shop assistant if it's any good for back pain she avoided to make any claim, just said that "they" are testing it. So it was up to me to get it or not.
But, are you trying to say that's illegal to provide flat 7up and toast to my kids for their tummies?

Bredabe

OP, have you looked into those post services that let you have a UK/US address that forwards to your local PO/house?

Cordell

https://addresspal.anpost.ie/ is one of them. But make sure whatever you get is also legal here, and I'm not talking about the issue brought earlier (the medical effects claims), but the actual contents.

Captcha

Proper CBD Oil helps with cancer and can shrink tumors. However, the version sold in Irish shops is a joke, a snakeoil...

You need high concentrated THC in the CBD oil.... thats the illegal part.... Big pharma dont want you near stuff that will cost them trillions and stop people dying from opiods (prescribed heroin, like fentanal, morphine etc)

LucyIrish06

Captcha wrote: »

Proper CBD Oil helps with cancer and can shrink tumors. However, the version sold in Irish shops is a joke, a snakeoil...

You need high concentrated THC in the CBD oil.... thats the illegal part.... Big pharma dont want you near stuff that will cost them trillions and stop people dying from opiods (prescribed heroin, like fentanal, morphine etc)

That's my point exactly, proper CBD oil has been proven to shrink cancer but that's not the point of my thread. I'm not looking for miracle I'm just looking for something that will help with her pain and nausea and if it does do anything to the cancer itself that's a bonus.
And yes, i dont trust buying it in a "legitimate high street chain" because when i asked them for lab results to prove what exactly was in it they couldn't provide me with one. If you were to go into a shop Colorado that sells it and ask them to provide the lab results they will hand it to you if it is not already in the box without any hesitation or questions.

locum-motion

Cordell wrote: »

Well, when I asked the shop assistant if it's any good for back pain she avoided to make any claim, just said that "they" are testing it. So it was up to me to get it or not.
But, are you trying to say that's illegal to provide flat 7up and toast to my kids for their tummies?

Flat 7-Up and Toast are foodstuffs, and unequivocally so. So, no, medicines legislation doesn't apply. Where exactly to draw the lines between Foodstuffs -> Food Supplements -> Medicines is potentially confusing, though!

It could possibly argued that if you went into a pharmacy (where you have a legitimate expectation that the treatment recommended for you will have a valid scientific background) and asked for something for your kids' tummies, and the pharmacist sold you flat 7Up and Toast, then the pharmacist is making a medicinal claim for those products.

However, if the pharmacist says "There are no medicinal products I can sell you that will treat that. However, give them flat 7Up & toast, which will do them no harm", then the pharmacist is not making a claim.

locum-motion

Captcha wrote: »

Proper CBD Oil helps with cancer and can shrink tumors. However, the version sold in Irish shops is a joke, a snakeoil...

You see, you've just made a medicinal claim for "Proper CBD oil"!!

Captcha wrote: »

...
You need high concentrated THC in the CBD oil...

By the way; CBD oil does not contain THC, nor vice versa.

THC and CBD are two different constituents of cannabis.

THC is controlled by the Misuse of Drugs Act (Schedule 1), and therefore is basically completely illegal in ROI in almost any circumstance. Researchers in universities and the like could possibly get a license from the Minister for Justice to posess it, but unlikely. It's completely illegal for Joe Public to have or supply it.

CBD Oil is the subject of this thread. It does not contain THC.

Captcha wrote: »

... Big pharma dont want you near stuff that will cost them trillions and stop people dying from opiods (prescribed heroin, like
fentanal, morphine etc)

Yeah, THAT'S the reason!! It's all a big conspiracy to keep people unwell so that we can keep profiting from sickness...


I would call you a idiot if it were permitted here, but I'll just have to say that your claim is idiotic.

boxer.fan

I can't figure out how many facepalms this thread needs......

LucyIrish06

boxer.fan wrote: »

I can't figure out how many facepalms this thread needs......

Some people just haven't got a clue :rolleyes:

locum-motion

boxer.fan wrote: »

I can't figure out how many facepalms this thread needs......

You might start by giving an indication of who you think has earned a facepalm!!

boxer.fan

locum-motion wrote: »

boxer.fan wrote: »

I can't figure out how many facepalms this thread needs......

You might start by giving an indication of who you think has earned a facepalm!!

Well I didn't think I would need to clarify, however, this kind of rubbish does my head in generally. I work directly with ill people daily. It's amazing how often people will pursue "natural" quackery over proven treatments & ultimately arrive back looking for intervention when the snake oil hasn't worked.

LucyIrish06

boxer.fan wrote: »

Well I didn't think I would need to clarify, however, this kind of rubbish does my head in generally. I work directly with ill people daily. It's amazing how often people will pursue "natural" quackery over proven treatments & ultimately arrive back looking for intervention when the snake oil hasn't worked.

How is it so called "Natural quackery" if it's been proven to work? I would gladly pick something that's naturally grown in the earths soil thats proven to work over something that's been created in a lab any day.
And if you work with "I'll people daily" you are educated enough to know that every humans body is different and every humans body reacts differently to certain things. I would actually pay to see how many people come running back to their doctor to say that CBD oil doesn't work because I'd say it's very little if not none to be honest, hense why it's been legalised.

After all this arguing I still haven't got an answer to my thread, just know it all people looking for an argument that they'll never win.
If there is any nice people out there and are not here for an argument, just help a person out who is trying to help her aunty who is dying from cancer. Thanks 😊

boxer.fan

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

If there is any nice people out there and are not here for an argument, just help a person out who is trying to help her aunty who is dying from cancer. Thanks 😊

Sorry to hear about your Aunt's troubles. Palliative care clinicians can help all aspects of your aunties pain requirements. Its what they do every day. They are the best people for that job.

CBD comes from a lab too & is highly processed similar to medications. Everything is a chemical.

Good luck

jh79

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

How is it so called "Natural quackery" if it's been proven to work? I would gladly pick something that's naturally grown in the earths soil thats proven to work over something that's been created in a lab any day.
And if you work with "I'll people daily" you are educated enough to know that every humans body is different and every humans body reacts differently to certain things. I would actually pay to see how many people come running back to their doctor to say that CBD oil doesn't work because I'd say it's very little if not none to be honest, hense why it's been legalised.

After all this arguing I still haven't got an answer to my thread, just know it all people looking for an argument that they'll never win.
If there is any nice people out there and are not here for an argument, just help a person out who is trying to help her aunty who is dying from cancer. Thanks 😊

It hasn't been proven to work. CBD has performed poorly in preclinical cancer research. Potentcy is such an issue it would be impossible to consume a therapeutic dose.

The one clincial trial that has been done was only to see if they could deliver a therapeutic dose and that involved brain surgery to allow them to inject the equivalent of a 1000 joints in to the brain tumour. All 9 patients died within 2 years of the clinical trial.

Holland and Barrett sell CBD oil , why not give that a go.

waxmoth

jh79 wrote: »

.....CBD has performed poorly in preclinical cancer research. Potentcy is such an issue it would be impossible to consume a therapeutic dose. ......

This paper demonstrates effectiveness in breast cancer models. https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.molonc.2014.12.010

Overall, these results suggest CBD as a potent anti‐tumor drug with anti‐proliferative, anti‐migratory, and anti‐invasive properties. These results also suggest a cross‐talk between EGFR and one of the receptors that CBD acts on. Furthermore, CBD has a tumor microenvironment modulating property which suggests an important role of CBD receptors on changing the cytokine profile within the tumor microenvironment. This study advocates the use of CBD in breast cancer patients especially those with highly aggressive and metastatic cancer cells including TNBC patients, and those who have resistance to conventional EGFR therapy.

If it is possible for health professionals to admit patients to clinical trials of experimental drugs then it should be equally possible to offer/advise on natural products like cannabidiol which would appear to have a very good risk/benefit ratio.

eeeee

I use this one: www.boydscbd.com for chronic pain and find it excellent. It's much easier to take than the stuff with the pulp still in in my opinion. After surgery the pulpy stuff caught in my throat really painfully and this doesn't. Definitely anything to consider for your aunt, add she will likely be nauseous and uncomfortable in so many different ways throughout her treatment
I take the the oil. It's made a massive difference to me but it works cumulatively in my case, it's effects built up over time through taking it regularly. I forgot it going home at Christmas and really seen then how much it was doing for me without it. I'll never go anywhere without it again!

Best of luck to your aunt with it all.

jh79

waxmoth wrote: »

This paper demonstrates effectiveness in breast cancer models. https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.molonc.2014.12.010
If it is possible for health professionals to admit patients to clinical trials of experimental drugs then it should be equally possible to offer/advise on natural products like cannabidiol which would appear to have a very good risk/benefit ratio.

As i said , potency is the problem in these preclinical studies and results to date wouldn't justify progressing to clinical trials. It is just not possible to give a therapeutic dose.

Synthetic CBD is the only realistic option where the structure is tweaked to improve potency.

locum-motion

boxer.fan wrote: »

Well I didn't think I would need to clarify, however, this kind of rubbish does my head in generally. I work directly with ill people daily. It's amazing how often people will pursue "natural" quackery over proven treatments & ultimately arrive back looking for intervention when the snake oil hasn't worked.

Thanks.
Glad to hear you're on the side of reason, but from the post I replied to, you could just have easily been facepalming all of us 'sheeple' that are swallowing the 'big pharma' line!

listermint

Erm, seems you lads went off on a tangent.

The person had been asking about pain relief, not a paper on how CBD reduces tumour sizes.

If you are actually going to dazzle people with facts at least stick to the point the persons was looking for information on.

They never asked for reduction of the tumour or combating the cancer itself.


In being intelligent you are being less so.

jh79

listermint wrote: »

Erm, seems you lads went off on a tangent.

The person had been asking about pain relieve, not a paper on how CBD reduces tumour sizes.

If you are actually going to dazzle people with facts at least stick to the point the persons was looking for information on.

They never asked for reduction of the tumour or combating the cancer itself.


In being intelligent you are being less so.

It's not very good for pain or nausea either and a Cochrane review found no benefit in palative care in cancer patients either.

eeeee

jh79 wrote: »

It's not very good for pain or nausea either and a Cochrane review found no benefit in palative care in cancer patients either.

I've personally found it to be excellent for pain.

waxmoth

jh79 wrote: »

As i said , potency is the problem in these preclinical studies and results to date wouldn't justify progressing to clinical trials. It is just not possible to give a therapeutic dose.

Based on the linked paper it should be possible if delivered directly to the tumor microenvironment.

locum-motion

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

...If there is any nice people out there and are not here for an argument, just help a person out who is trying to help her aunty who is dying from cancer. Thanks ��

Of course I feel sorry for your aunt and would like for her to get better or at the very least have a dignified and pain-free death, but her best chance of that lies with medicines and palliative care, not 'Natural' alternatives, I'm afraid.

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

How is it so called "Natural quackery" if it's been proven to work? I would gladly pick something that's naturally grown in the earths soil thats proven to work over something that's been created in a lab any day. ...

There is a name for 'Alternative Medicine' or 'Complementary Medicine' that has been proven to work. That name is 'Medicine'.
By definition, alternative or complementary treatments have at best not been proven to work or been proven not to work or perhaps even at worst proven to be harmful.
I'm afraid too that an argument along the lines of grown-in-the-ground = good and made-in-a-lab = bad is a complete fallacy.

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

...And if you work with "I'll people daily" you are educated enough to know that every humans body is different and every humans body reacts differently to certain things.

Yes, people react differently to medicines.
Any given medication might work for one person and not for the next. Or it might have side effects in one person and none in the next. Or it one person might have side effect A and another had side effect B, but not vice versa.
But for medicines, the relative chances of those things happening are known. That's the very essence of what medical research IS; calculating the odds of a benefit versus the odds of an adverse reaction.

LucyIrish06 wrote: »

... CBD oil... hense why it's been legalised...

CBD Oil HAS NOT "been legalised". The legal position regarding CBD Oil has not altered, and it remains as outlined above. The fact remains that anyone who is offering CBD Oil with the intention of providing a medical benefit is breaking the law.
If research (which is ongoing) proves that CBD Oil has a positive benefit-to-risk ratio, then it will become a licensed medicinal product and will be available through the usual channels, which are there to provide protection to the consumer, and 'comeback' if something goes wrong.
Until then, people who are offering CBD Oil as a "food supplement" are simply trying to separate you/your aunt from your/her money as efficiently as they can with no realistic promise of benefit.