Enterprise Upgrade Program

riddlinrussell

Spotted this article on the BBC.

Five Year Plan for enterprise upgrades £239 million on new trains, timetabling and track upgrades with the aim of a sub 2 hour, hourly service

Long term plan £630 million to get journey time to 90 minutes and appears to include electrification of the whole route, or at least a significant portion of it.

Anyone know of any more detailed information on it?

marno21

Who is going to fund this? is the most relevant question.

Malahide-Drogheda is proposed for electrification under DART Expansion, however the fact it is twin track may lead to delays for Enterprise services.

riddlinrussell

Certainly seems like they are angling for the money rather than stating it as a certainty, given the cross border nature I'd previously have imagined they would have had multiple avenues for getting the money but I'd say any chance of EU funding is currently up in the air.

I have to guess that a significant amount of the money for any possible 90 minute journey would require quad tracking of the Dart section at a minimum, Electrification of the entire route would be interesting but I'd imagine it would be a significant outlay.

ncounties

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Certainly seems like they are angling for the money rather than stating it as a certainty, given the cross border nature I'd previously have imagined they would have had multiple avenues for getting the money but I'd say any chance of EU funding is currently up in the air.

I have to guess that a significant amount of the money for any possible 90 minute journey would require quad tracking of the Dart section at a minimum, Electrification of the entire route would be interesting but I'd imagine it would be a significant outlay.

Sure with all the money they´ll save from leaving Europe, the UK will easily be able to afford it... that and with the booming economy they´ll have as the DUP tell us it will be so good for business.

EdgeCase

Well, there would be no EU funding available for this as it will potentially be to a 3rd country due to Brexit, so I would suspect it's very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

It's a project that would have been a very obvious candidate for funds from TEN-T.

Also, due to a dispute about bilingual signage and gay marriage, there is no Northern Ireland assembly. So, the proposal is clearly nonsense as there's nobody to drive this kind of project through. The Northern Secretary will operate on the basis that she's just a caretaker to maintain the status quo and UK public expenditure is constantly being slashed.

I suspect this is total pie-in-the-sky stuff and sounds more like a wish list from Translink and Iarnród Éireann.

Iarnród Éireann needs to concentrate on commuter services at the moment and possibly getting a few key intercity services up to speed, with existing technology.

Actually, getting the Enterprise up to the maximum speed for the existing trains and locomotives would be far more useful than what they're proposing. It's a very short journey anyway and the coaches were all just upgraded.

I wonder would a more useful medium term project be to purchase a fleet of pointy, 200km/h capable locomotives with better fuel efficiency and acceleration characteristics, possibly designed to run on biofuel and use those to head and tail the push-pull sets for Belfast and Cork services with the existing De Dietrich and CAF coaches. Paint the locos in a neutral livery, without logos e.g. perhaps a colour like silver that and you could end up with very good looking, modern push-pull services that could be a lot more speed-capable and eco-friendly without massive expenditure. You'd also have a pool of them that could be swapped around as maintenance needs to be done as both the CAF MK4 and De Dietrich fleets are pretty tiny on their own. The MK4 fleet could also get a bit of a re-livery and maybe an early life sprucing up to do a relaunch too. Something like that might come in at about 10% to 15% of the cost of what's being proposed and still have significant impact on environmental impact, timings and so on.

From what I can see, using more intelligent signalling and adding a 3rd track on some of the Dublin commuter lines would be useful and more passing loops / waiting areas. I'm fairly confident that you could make better use of very high quality modern signalling and some bi-directional running for an Enterprise line for example? The frequencies aren't that high - it could get the Enterprise and high speed long-distance commuters past most of the bottle necks other than the narrow parts of the DART line.

There are definitely some cheaper and more creative options that don't involve going to full TGV-like high speed or massive construction projects.

In terms of priorities in the Republic at the moment, converting the Dublin commuter services to electric running would seem to me to be a priority to reduce CO2 footprints. Also getting some proper investment into things like trams and BRT in Dublin, Cork and at the very least BRT into Galway and Limerick should e urgently done. We can't just keep growing dependency on cars and fossil fuel commuter rail.

It always baffled me that CIE built new commuter services with diesel trains. I would have thought that all of the Dublin ones and probably the Cork-Midleton-Cobh-Mallow routes should have been developed as electric services, purely with the idea that they could run without CO2 footprints using renewables as the power system moves over to better energy sources.

It just seems really strange to see diesel commuter rail in Dublin in particular. It's very incongruous with what happens elsewhere in Europe. They look more like rural regional trains.

Heartbreak Hank

Cross Border Upgrade Plan - Railway Gazette

thomond2006

Hopefully this gets done. The train is very comfortable but the bus (Dublin Coach anyway) is half the price with a shorter journey time.

Ireland trains

I was reading on modern railways that irish rail need 2 extra trains to make the enterprise hourly (1 IR and 1NIR).
irish rail will have about 3 spare icr sets from the 2700 reintroduction and could use one for the enterprise.
NIR could bring back a thumper to free up a 3000/4000 class.
Could this work?
Also why do they need 9 new enterprise sets when they would only need 6.
Will new enterprise sets actually be ordered in the near future or is it just a wish list

cgcsb

With the DART going to 10 minute frequency it's going to be more less impossible to operate an hourly enterprise service. Such a service would require a third track to be added as far as Howth Junction at least. With Brexit uncertain, the enterprise it's self is uncertain, there may be 0 trains per day going north of Dundalk.

Ireland trains

If the darts are every 10 min it could still be possible
Dart leaves connolly at ××:40 (mallahide)
Dart leaves connolly at ××:50 (to howth)
Enterprise leaves at ××:00
Dart arrives mallahide at ××:05
Enterprise passes mallahide ××:13
It could work easily, just not with the irish rail attitude.
But brexit is an issue

cgcsb

Ireland trains wrote: »

If the darts are every 10 min it could still be possible
Dart leaves connolly at ××:40 (mallahide)
Dart leaves connolly at ××:50 (to howth)
Enterprise leaves at ××:00
Dart arrives mallahide at ××:05
Enterprise passes mallahide ××:13
It could work easily, just not with the irish rail attitude.
But brexit is an issue

You effectively have a 9 minute gap between DARTs from Howth Junction to Connolly The Belfast train doesn't stop so it'd quickly catch up to the DART on front, and thus be stuck behind it before it reached Connolly.

Considering that there is no will in NI to improve the track and there's the impending threat of NIs economy tanking completely, add in a few customs checks, there is no use doing anything with enterprise in the short term.

If that gets sorted however a serious effort should be made on a cross border basis to make the service high speed(say 200-250km/hr), (a third track into Connolly would be required) electrified and extend the metro to Donebate and provide interchange there to allow NI holidaymakers better access to the airport.

L1011

Ireland trains wrote: »

NIR could bring back a thumper to free up a 3000/4000 class.
Could this work?

They don't have a time machine.

There are only partial Class 80 sets around - too small at two cars (one of which has the over-floor engine, so 1.5 cars of capacity), 45 years old.

There is one Class 450 set - power gear and underframes for these are over 50 yeas old.

It is probably more practical to rent one of the RPSI MkII sets if we're going to go robbing from preservation.

EdgeCase

If you wanted to increase capacity in the medium term, the cheapest and simplest solution would be to get Hyundai / Tokyo car to built a version of the Irish Rail Intercity Railcars to an Enterprise spec.

There's no point in having some weird vehicle that doesn't share common parts / maintenance with something else on this island.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

With the DART going to 10 minute frequency it's going to be more less impossible to operate an hourly enterprise service. Such a service would require a third track to be added as far as Howth Junction at least. With Brexit uncertain, the enterprise it's self is uncertain, there may be 0 trains per day going north of Dundalk.

Just to be clear - It’s perfectly possible to fit an hourly path around the 10 minute DART but with the current infrastructure some compromise will be required. Either Enterprise journey times are increased or DART moves a minute or two around it.

But it is perfectly feasible. It is certainly NOT almost impossible.

As for the infrastructure - it is blindingly obvious to me and I have argued for some considerable time that an expansion of the Northern Line between Killester and Raheny to three or four tracks is needed if outer suburban and Enterprise services are to remain competitive. You can’t go beyond Raheny due to buildings being adjacent to the tracks.

As for your last line - I think that is scaremongering nonsense. Trains will undoubtedly continue to operate north of Dundalk.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

As for the infrastructure - it is blindingly obvious to me and I have argued for some considerable time that an expansion of the Northern Line between Killester and Raheny to three or four tracks is needed if outer suburban and Enterprise services are to remain competitive. You can’t go beyond Raheny due to buildings being adjacent to the tracks.

Given the scale of work required to make bus connects work I don't think it's unfeasible, it's just a matter of CPOing and spending a bit of money. Adding tracks is probably going to be a requirement regardless of what the fate of the enterprise is.

LXFlyer wrote: »

As for your last line - I think that is scaremongering nonsense. Trains will undoubtedly continue to operate north of Dundalk.

The journey time is already uncompetitive with bus, add in customs and a few additional security alerts and the service could easily be killed off.

Remember the UK still hasn't indicated where they are going to secure food from 8 months from now, so how they are going to maintain the enterprise service is a very low priority.

Ireland trains

They need 3/4 track from connolly to mallahide at least and really 3 track to maynooth and 3 tracks from pearse to dun laioghre/bray.
I have an image in my head that the new enterprise stock (if it comes) will be like the Meridian in the uk.
Intercity services should take 15 min to maynooth,30 (max) min to greystones and 30 (max) minutes to drogheda.
Will they scrap the current enterprise fleet once new trains come or redeploy them elsewhere.
If there is ever the 5 min dart to drogheda (which is far fetched but planned) id assume not all trains would call at all station's eg. Slow, semi-fast and fast

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Given the scale of work required to make bus connects work I don't think it's unfeasible, it's just a matter of CPOing and spending a bit of money. Adding tracks is probably going to be a requirement regardless of what the fate of the enterprise is.

The journey time is already uncompetitive with bus, add in customs and a few additional security alerts and the service could easily be killed off.

Remember the UK still hasn't indicated where they are going to secure food from 8 months from now, so how they are going to maintain the enterprise service is a very low priority.

The track expansion will undoubtedly happen at some point but it is only needed from Killester to Raheny to allow overtaking. You don’t need to go further. Demolishing houses is unlikely to happen, which would be required if you continue to Howth Junction.

Adding a southbound loop at Clongriffin would provide a capacity increase north of Howth Junction.

My point remains - it is perfectly possible to path an hourly enterprise - your earlier statement is factually incorrect.

As far as the future of the Enterprise is concerned, people are still going to have to get from a to b regardless.

Suggesting that the train will stop is frankly scaremongering nonsense. Some sort of political fudge arrangement will be concocted.

L1011

Ireland trains wrote: »

Intercity services should take 15 min to maynooth

Would require an entirely new alignment.

Electrified trains would be able to make the journey slightly faster than currently (better acceleration out of curves) but that's about it

Ireland trains

Dart v commuter speed example
Pearse - Connolly
Commuter : 6-7min
Dart :4-5min
Big acceleration difference.
Could 10 min be knocked off the maynooth line once the dart is there

Idbatterim

the figure of 630 million sterling is an off the wall joke. I assume new light rail lines could be built in dublin, several km long, that would serve vastly more people on a daily basis...

Youd have to wonder about the future of the train, when you will be able to take an electric bus, v a diesel train, that costs a lot more and longer to get there, in the Dublin to belfast case...

ncounties

the figure of 630 million sterling is an off the wall joke. I assume new light rail lines could be built in dublin, several km long, that would serve vastly more people on a daily basis...

Youd have to wonder about the future of the train, when you will be able to take an electric bus, v a diesel train, that costs a lot more and longer to get there, in the Dublin to belfast case...

Lifespans of buses are a lot shorter than that of trains, you´d need multiple buses for the capacity of each train, buses that you compare the Enterprise against don´t serve the same amount of locations (i.e. they´re all expresses) so you need more buses again, driver shortages, buses are much more likely to be pranged by drivers than trains, public perception of buses is lower than that for trains, opportunity to make additional revenue from train travelers, and if a proper investment was made, a coach would be no comparison time wise than that of a proper electrified rail system.

L1011

Ireland trains wrote: »

Dart v commuter speed example
Pearse - Connolly
Commuter : 6-7min
Dart :4-5min
Big acceleration difference.
Could 10 min be knocked off the maynooth line once the dart is there

Off stopping services - I'd hope it'll be around that. Some will be lost back to Cross Guns and Pelletstown stations.

Express services may improve a bit but more stopping services will slow them down by being in the way basically

Muahahaha

Slightly OT but a mate in London works in the Home Office and has been assigned to an Enterprise project about sorting out how it is going to run post-Brexit. Havent spoken to them in a while but basically its a bunch of British transport civil servants arguing with a bunch of Irish transport civil servants, sounds like mad stuff.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

the figure of 630 million sterling is an off the wall joke. I assume new light rail lines could be built in dublin, several km long, that would serve vastly more people on a daily basis...

Youd have to wonder about the future of the train, when you will be able to take an electric bus, v a diesel train, that costs a lot more and longer to get there, in the Dublin to belfast case...

Well ultimately it's a case of investment. If we had electric high speed trains that would again be a superior offering. Long distance electric buses haven't been invented yet.

cgcsb

Muahahaha wrote: »

Slightly OT but a mate in London works in the Home Office and has been assigned to an Enterprise project about sorting out how it is going to run post-Brexit. Havent spoken to them in a while but basically its a bunch of British transport civil servants arguing with a bunch of Irish transport civil servants, sounds like mad stuff.

Same as every other aspect of Brexit so.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

Same as every other aspect of Brexit so.

Except they might be able to keep it on track.