Audi A6 - ECU - corroded contacts in ECU + harness - ideas?

endeval

Hi folks,

A6 Avant, 2013 C7, 2.0 TDI 177

A few weeks back, when going to start the car, a number of errors cycled through and it wouldnt start
- electronic brake,
- put into Park (it's a manual)
- Stability control failure
- Headlamp focus failure
- washer fluid bottle empty (it wasnt)

When I saw all of that, I dreaded that the ECU, ECM relay or battery was toast.  I left it 6 hours and car started fine and been fine since.
Finally got a diags in the local Audi garage - all clear.  They physically inspected the ECU.

They found corrosion on three pins and corresponding female connectors on the main harness.  They told me that it was due to water damage and a "leak" in a seal.
They took pics and shared with me - advised that it is about a €2,400 repair.

Now, weeks back, when I popped the bulkhead splash cover and looked at the ECU, I noticed that the drain hole and hole for passenger wiper arm, in the center of the bottom shield for the windscreen is directly above the ECU loom.
Rainwater pours down the hole and right on to the ECU loom.  As the loom falls away from that point to the ECU, water is easily finding it's way into the ECU compartment and into the end of the ECU harness.

Is this not a design fault?   Has anyone else seen this or heard of issues with this design?

I called back the Audi dealer and explained the water issue and what i thought was a design fault.
The garage told me that Audi will cover 70% of the ECU costs and leave me with a €1,200 bill which includes labour.

I'm not sure, maybe this is great customer service, or are Audi aware of this issue and it should actually be a zero-cost fix?

When I looked at the picture of the corroded connections, and no knowing if water ingressed into the actual ECU - couldn't those contacts just be cleaned and sealing work done solve the issue?

Help is greatly appreciated.  I'll post those pics when they send them to me.

Many thanks

TomOnBoard

endeval wrote: »

Hi folks,

A6 Avant, 2013 C7, 2.0 TDI 177

A few weeks back, when going to start the car, a number of errors cycled through and it wouldnt start
- electronic brake,
- put into Park (it's a manual)
- Stability control failure
- Headlamp focus failure
- washer fluid bottle empty (it wasnt)

When I saw all of that, I dreaded that the ECU, ECM relay or battery was toast.  I left it 6 hours and car started fine and been fine since.
Finally got a diags in the local Audi garage - all clear.  They physically inspected the ECU.

They found corrosion on three pins and corresponding female connectors on the main harness.  They told me that it was due to water damage and a "leak" in a seal.
They took pics and shared with me - advised that it is about a €2,400 repair.

Now, weeks back, when I popped the bulkhead splash cover and looked at the ECU, I noticed that the drain hole and hole for passenger wiper arm, in the center of the bottom shield for the windscreen is directly above the ECU loom.
Rainwater pours down the hole and right on to the ECU loom.  As the loom falls away from that point to the ECU, water is easily finding it's way into the ECU compartment and into the end of the ECU harness.

Is this not a design fault?   Has anyone else seen this or heard of issues with this design?

I called back the Audi dealer and explained the water issue and what i thought was a design fault.
The garage told me that Audi will cover 70% of the ECU costs and leave me with a €1,200 bill which includes labour.

I'm not sure, maybe this is great customer service, or are Audi aware of this issue and it should actually be a zero-cost fix?

When I looked at the picture of the corroded connections, and no knowing if water ingressed into the actual ECU - couldn't those contacts just be cleaned and sealing work done solve the issue?

Help is greatly appreciated.  I'll post those pics when they send them to me.

Many thanks

Get the 70% offer on the record without agreeing to it in any way. That will give you lots of scope to negotiate with them. If its not on the record, the offer could be withdrawn if you start arguing.

vandriver

How is 30% of €2400 €1200?

TomOnBoard

vandriver wrote: »

How is 30% of €2400 €1200?

Usually, if you get a reduction off the manufacturer it on the parts alone. The garage gets the full labour.

vandriver

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Usually, if you get a reduction off the manufacturer it on the parts alone. The garage gets the full labour.

Not such a great gesture then.

Trasna1

€685 to fit an ECU? I would have thought it would take at most 2hrs. Surely it's just a matter of plugging it in and connecting it up to the diagnostic computer?

mickdw

I'd certainly be having a good go at cleaning up everything and running it for a month or so to see if there are any issues. These goodwill offers are a joke at times.

Toyotafanboi

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Get the 70% offer on the record without agreeing to it in any way. That will give you lots of scope to negotiate with them. If its not on the record, the offer could be withdrawn if you start arguing.

Is a goodwill offering somehow an admission of guilt?

I think the issue can often be (not specifically with this model) that if you have moisture at the block connector that capillary action takes the moisture up into the core of the cable and corrodes them internally so in a lot of cases where the pins are corroded, the loom will be cut back inch by inch to a point where it is corrosion free and new cable will be attached at that point.

70% parts is a fairly standard goodwill contribution from VAG. I suppose if you work it back, that's making the ECU price around €1700, of which they are covering €1200 from your point of view. Being an Audi main dealer I'd assume around €125 per hour, which means they are charging 5.5 hours ish. If they could justify that and you are happy to pay it then what harm but I will admit 5.5 hours to remove and replace an ECU and replace 3 pins on a loom does initially seem a bit saucey. If they could do you a better deal on the labour it might not be so bad a deal, or that's what is ask for anyway.

endeval

thanks everyone, I've gone with the discounted repair :(
- they're ordering an ECU

ION08

Hi,

Had a similar enough scenario whereby I was suddenly greeted with a rake of errors / warnings on my Audi A4 dash.

- ESP fault
- Automatic Hand Brake Fault
- ABS fault
- Active suspension fault
- Dynamic Steering Fault

Long story short it was corrosion in the wiring harness which runs behind the wheel well (where it can get very wet!!).

Brought it to an expert Diagnostician (a real Expert!) who diagnosed it and fixed the wiring loom first time.

Total cost = 100 euro

The cost of a New Wiring Loom and Labour from Audi = remortgage your house!

PM me and I would be happy to recommend the same diagnostician,

I would be very confident that he could sort out you out for a fraction of the cost!!

TomOnBoard

ION08 wrote: »

Hi,

Had a similar enough scenario whereby I was suddenly greeted with a rake of errors / warnings on my Audi A4 dash.

- ESP fault
- Automatic Hand Brake Fault
- ABS fault
- Active suspension fault
- Dynamic Steering Fault

Long story short it was corrosion in the wiring harness which runs behind the wheel well (where it can get very wet!!).

Brought it to an expert Diagnostician (a real Expert!) who diagnosed it and fixed the wiring loom first time.

Total cost = 100 euro

The cost of a New Wiring Loom and Labour from Audi = remortgage your house!

PM me and I would be happy to recommend the same diagnostician,

I would be very confident that he could sort out you out for a fraction of the cost!!

Was that an Audi specific fella or more general?

mikeecho

Get rid of the car.

And get a B M TroubleU

At least the passenger will be able to open the glove box without being kneecapped.

ION08

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Was that an Audi specific fella or more general?

It was "more general" - but an absolute genius at diagnosing and fault finding the root cause as opposed to just throwing money at parts and hoping the problems goes away. (Like Audi who wanted to replace the entire harness)

Pm me and ill send you on some pics and details

JohnBoy26

endeval wrote: »

Hi folks,

A6 Avant, 2013 C7, 2.0 TDI 177

A few weeks back, when going to start the car, a number of errors cycled through and it wouldnt start
- electronic brake,
- put into Park (it's a manual)
- Stability control failure
- Headlamp focus failure
- washer fluid bottle empty (it wasnt)

When I saw all of that, I dreaded that the ECU, ECM relay or battery was toast.  I left it 6 hours and car started fine and been fine since.
Finally got a diags in the local Audi garage - all clear.  They physically inspected the ECU.

They found corrosion on three pins and corresponding female connectors on the main harness.  They told me that it was due to water damage and a "leak" in a seal.
They took pics and shared with me - advised that it is about a €2,400 repair.

Now, weeks back, when I popped the bulkhead splash cover and looked at the ECU, I noticed that the drain hole and hole for passenger wiper arm, in the center of the bottom shield for the windscreen is directly above the ECU loom.
Rainwater pours down the hole and right on to the ECU loom.  As the loom falls away from that point to the ECU, water is easily finding it's way into the ECU compartment and into the end of the ECU harness.

Is this not a design fault?   Has anyone else seen this or heard of issues with this design?

I called back the Audi dealer and explained the water issue and what i thought was a design fault.
The garage told me that Audi will cover 70% of the ECU costs and leave me with a €1,200 bill which includes labour.

I'm not sure, maybe this is great customer service, or are Audi aware of this issue and it should actually be a zero-cost fix?

When I looked at the picture of the corroded connections, and no knowing if water ingressed into the actual ECU - couldn't those contacts just be cleaned and sealing work done solve the issue?

Help is greatly appreciated.  I'll post those pics when they send them to me.

Many thanks

It's common across the vw range. In their wisdom they put the ecu under the wiper tray area. They have been doing this for a long time. It's in the same place in older vw's aswell.

TomOnBoard

ION08 wrote: »

It was "more general" - but an absolute genius at diagnosing and fault finding the root cause as opposed to just throwing money at parts and hoping the problems goes away. (Like Audi who wanted to replace the entire harness)

Pm me and ill send you on some pics and details

PM sent. Much obliged.

TomOnBoard

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

It's common across the vw range. In their wisdom they put the ecu under the wiper tray area. They have been doing this for a long time. It's in the same place in older vw's aswell.

I hope OP gets them to put some shielding / drainage in place.

Sometimes I wonder if these design engineers live in the real world at all....

JohnBoy26

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I hope OP gets them to put some shielding / drainage in place.

Sometimes I wonder if these design engineers live in the real world at all....

You could cover it with something but in general it's in a terrible location.

endeval

endeval wrote: »

thanks everyone, I've gone with the discounted repair :(
- they're ordering an ECU

That was extremely stupid, you should have brought it to an electronic engineering place and they could have repaired it for probably hundred quid. All the components are generic

Toyotafanboi

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

That was extremely stupid, you should have brought it to an electronic engineering place and they could have repaired it for probably hundred quid. All the components are generic

Could you recommend an electronic engineering place?

ION08

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

That was extremely stupid, you should have brought it to an electronic engineering place and they could have repaired it for probably hundred quid. All the components are generic

Agreed 100%

JohnBoy26

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

That was extremely stupid, you should have brought it to an electronic engineering place and they could have repaired it for probably hundred quid. All the components are generic

These can be a right mess though when they get water damaged.

Toyotafanboi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Could you recommend an electronic engineering place?

I could , too late now though

JohnBoy26

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

These can be a right mess though when they get water damaged.

Worth a try and let them have a go before forking over 1500 quid to Audi for a new one, people think things are just disposable these days it's a society thing. More than likely this was 100% repairable and the right company could have done it not a bother

TomOnBoard

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

I could , too late now though

Not too late for someone else...

gctest50

If it cuts out and stops dead in the overtaking lane and kills someone , Audi won't be long ripping it to pieces for the gardai - & to make sure it's not an undiscovered issue

TomOnBoard

gctest50 wrote: »

If it cuts out and stops dead in the overtaking lane and kills someone , Audi won't be long ripping it to pieces for the gardai - & to make sure it's not an undiscovered issue

And if it is a previously undiscovered issue that contributed to the hypothetical accident, d'ya reckon Audi would actually tell the Guards?

I think not!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/06/audi-ceo-pulled-into-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-probe.html

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

If it cuts out and stops dead in the overtaking lane and kills someone , Audi won't be long ripping it to pieces for the gardai - & to make sure it's not an undiscovered issue

I'd say they would haha, they wouldn't give a ****. Audi aren't driving the car, the cars brakes won't lock up because of the ecu it would cut out and any competent driver should be able to safely exit the over taking lane.

You talking as if it's a sportsbike that's brakes locked up it's gonna end in tragedy

What a crock of rubbish lol

gctest50

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

I'd say they would haha, they wouldn't give a ****. Audi aren't driving the car.........

They all care

"Mr Nolan said Mrs McGilloway had told the inquest she hadn’t used her brake at the time of the crash but that a report by a Renault engineer from France had concluded that she had done."

gctest50

TomOnBoard wrote: »

And if it is a previously undiscovered issue that contributed to the hypothetical accident, d'ya reckon Audi would actually tell the Guards?

I think not!

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/06/audi-ceo-pulled-into-volkswagen-emissions-cheating-probe.html

They may have learned from this one :

BMW Ireland is recalling over 10,000 cars here due to a faulty electronic system.

The safety recall comes after an investigation by BBC’s Watchdog consumer programme which reveals that some models cut out completely when they are being driven.




Cars were initially recalled in the UK after Narayan Gurung, who was travelling with his wife on Christmas Day in 2016, died when their Ford Fiesta crashed into a tree to avoid a broken-down BMW, which had suffered an electrical fault and caused the brake lights to fail which resulted in the vehicle stalling on a dark A-road.

https://www.thesun.ie/motors/2554353/bmw-ireland-is-recalling-more-than-10000-cars-here-due-to-faulty-electronic-system/

.

Toyotafanboi

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

I could , too late now though

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Not too late for someone else...

Exactly, this is a very popular site, if you have had a good experience with a company please share it. It's otherwise too easy to call the OP stupid and not make a recommendation to assist.

I know if someone recommended me to visit an "electrical engineering place" I can't think of any off the top of my head and I'm in the trade and I can't picture dropping off my Audi A4 with anyone who shows up under that Google search term.

I couldn't picture too many auto electricians taking on this job, particularly pre diagnosis.

I'm not "dealer defending" here but unfair to call someone stupid in hindsight for going with a safe option.

Toyotafanboi

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Exactly, this is a very popular site, if you have had a good experience with a company please share it. It's otherwise too easy to call the OP stupid and not make a recommendation to assist.

I know if someone recommended me to visit an "electrical engineering place" I can't think of any off the top of my head and I'm in the trade and I can't picture dropping off my Audi A4 with anyone who shows up under that Google search term.

I couldn't picture too many auto electricians taking on this job, particularly pre diagnosis.

I'm not "dealer defending" here but unfair to call someone stupid in hindsight for going with a safe option.

I'm not talking about someone dropping their car off, I'm talking about someone taking the ecu out themselves and bringing it to an engineering shop. It's a 2 minute job, these aren't car shops they won't deal with a car

I have friends who work in places that would do this but Im not going to post those companies because I don't know do they deal with the public but a quick Google will show you. I will ask my friend if I can post his company's name on here and if they deal with the public I will. Although it shouldn't be that hard to find with Google

Edit, first Google search throws up this place
http://www.autotechnikireland.ie could list the next 20..

If you Google tv repair shops same results, they would be well capable of replacing the damaged components

TomOnBoard

The approach suggested by ION08 above, using an expert vehicle diagnostician, would be worth considering by anyone who finds themselves in OP's situation. However, it would need to be understood that, if it didn't work out successfully, OP would have screwed his chances with Audi on the 70% deal. They would have absolutely no obligation to help resolve the issue using any goodwill gestures if/when someone else had become involved in the repair.

Other suggestions such as taking out the ECU and bringing into a shop for repair d8nt deal with the OP's issue at all.

Good luck with the repair and I hope it deals with the problems.

endeval

I'll PM you.

Audi replaced the ECU (big bill) and the errors are back this morning.

that was after the MMI reset itself to German twice.

endeval

Callie Dirty Beer wrote: »

That was extremely stupid, you should have brought it to an electronic engineering place and they could have repaired it for probably hundred quid. All the components are generic

Callie Dirty Beer, mind yourself with your comments please. Think before you type.

Toyotafanboi

Did they repair the wiring too? If so and you've paid a contribution to the repair I'd be dropping it straight back to them not looking to spend another cent for the time being anyway.

endeval

Yes indeed.
They didn't specify which, but there's about 7 or 8 wiring part numbers on the bill.
They had to keep the car for a few days when the wiring parts were delivered.

Car will be going back to them today.

Toyotafanboi

Keep us updated anyway!

endeval

They called back.

They now believe that there might be corrosion on the clutch pedal sensor wire. They want to charge me money to examine it.
I'm no expert, but the warnings flashed up this morning are **exactly** the same as they were before the ECU replacement;

- Parking Brake error
- Stabilisation Control (ESC) fault
- Tire Pressure System Fault
- Headlight Range control system fault


I'm not sure how a single clutch pedal sensor open circuit cause all those alerts?

Thanks
James

endeval

So the dealer has said it's now the Master Cylinder and wants money to repair it.

mickdw

Why not take it somewhere else for another opinion. Just to settle the mind.

TomOnBoard

endeval wrote: »

So the dealer has said it's now the Master Cylinder and wants money to repair it.

So, after charging you 2 grand to fix a problem, they didn't fix the problem. And now, they think it MAY be something else... And they want you to pay more to check out that possibility?

Am I missing anything there?

Toyotafanboi

Yeah I'd be asking someone to push that back up the chain for you to review this. Your car was in relatively recently with the same symptoms and you paid four figures for repairs based on them as a manufacturers workshop knowing best, now the car still has the same issue. IMO this repair (or attempt at) should be on them and I think you won't struggle to achieve that if you dig your heels in just a little.

endeval

Nope, you're right.
They replaced the clutch master cylinder today and updating the MMI as it reverted twice to German language while I had it back. They did show me a picture of a corroded pin in the ecu block, through into the ecu receptor terminal.

What gets me is that a windscreen drain pours water directly over the ecu/ecm loom which travels downward to the ecm in the plenum chamber. The nylon loom casing carries the water via a fall in the cable to the ecm. That's not good engineering in my opinion.

TomOnBoard

endeval wrote: »

Nope, you're right.
They replaced the clutch master cylinder today and updating the MMI as it reverted twice to German language while I had it back. They did show me a picture of a corroded pin in the ecu block, through into the ecu receptor terminal.

What gets me is that a windscreen drain pours water directly over the ecu/ecm loom which travels down to the ecm in the plenum chamber. The nylon loom casing carries the water via a fall in the cable to the ecm. That's not good engineering in my opinion.

Surely the corroded pin picture is totally irrelevant. Any car will show evidence of corrosion and/or less than pristine elements . However, its only if they cause a problem that they need sorting/ replacing.

In this case, you experienced issues. They examined the car and diagnosed ECU etc as being faulty and requiring replacement. Ergo, the replacement and repair should have dealt with the issue. You got charged 2 grand. The problem was NOT dealt with. Their efforts failed and it is now clear that their diagnosis was incorrect.

The picture is just a sly attempt to justify their failure and get them off the hook. If it was me, I give them 25 hours to refund my money. In the meantime, L.A.W.Y.E.R.!!

endeval

I got the car back yesterday, no faults so far.

I chased them on the ECU replacement and they said it was definitely gone and that the errors prior to the ECU replacement were different to the errors on the morning of the recent failure.
I saw the same errors on the dash, presented to me (I know that's different to the ECU logs).

But a serious coincidence that the ECU and Clutch Master Cylinder went at the SAME time.

I'm still not convinced

endeval

The Saga continues....

Last Saturday, this same original errors popped up during the third time I started the car that today.

Slightly different this time, with one change (didnt say put into Park, instead Start/stop system not available)
- electronic brake failure
- Stability control failure
- Headlamp focus failure
- washer fluid bottle empty
- tyre pressure failure

It started a second time and tyre pressure warning stayed lit for the 10km drive.
When I restarted it to drive back home, went fine, no errors, but as I lifted off the accelerator coming up to lights, the car stalled for a second and the glow plug/coil light came up for a second also.


So I brought it back on Tuesday. Wednesday they replaced two relays (ECM relay and another which I am waiting on details). They are keeping the car until Monday and the head mechanic is driving it. They wont charge me.


I've been told the error codes are different to the two last episodes, but with an ECM relay issue (which I asked them to check day #1), the errors will most likely be different when there's no communication between the ECU, ECU, Gateway ECUs and sensors....

So, while one pin showed corrosion in the ECU.....I don't believe the ECU nor the cluster master cylinder was ever the problem....

I'd like opinions, who know better than I, please.


Thanks

Tazio

Read your thread and I do feel for you. Frustrating position to be in.

Going for a very simplistic approach here.... was there any major work done on car prior to ecu faults? E.g. clutch change etc? Some work that involved separating engine or gearbox etc? One comment in your original post about lifting off throttle and car stalling kinda feels like loose earth or supply to fuse box.

Or was there work done on the auto handbrake??

I've seen some cars throw similar wobbles with bad earths and/or old battery problems.

I've a 159 (no smart comments please) in the family fleet that throws up ABS / traction/ hill hold errors when battery is at end of life.

A trip to an auto electrician for a look might be a few quid well spent.

I hope you get sorted soon at no extra cost

TheBoyConor

Just get rid of the car. Trade it or donedeal it.

TomOnBoard

Frankly, others have offered opinions peviously on what you should/could do, and you're still persisting with these guys who clearly haven't a clue, while they are basically draining your bank account. There comes a time in any repair & maintenance relationship when you stop accepting what are apparently knowledgeable statements that are not backed up with proof, and you at the least get a second opinion from an operator who has a track record of doing a good job. You have been advised of independent car electrical services to whom you could/should bring the car, and get that second opinion that you clearly need. Like, how many more excuses will you accept?