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University in Kilkenny

  • 05-06-2018 10:17am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    Recent report on a university campus in Kilkenny comment piece in the Kilkenny people
    https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/315660/opinion-idea-of-a-university-campus-in-kilkenny-merits-thoughtful-consideration.html

    I dont know about this, to build a campus in Kilkenny seems to be folly when you have two fully equipped campuses 30 mins and 40 min away .A campus isnt just a set of buildings where students take classes its also needs social and sports facilities which would require a lot of investment which would be better spent on the existing Waterford and Carlow campuses .

    The dispersed small campus model has been shown to not really work as a student experience because they dont have the critical mass for all the facilities required. I found it ironic the the Mary Michelle O'Connor came to Kilkenny to launch a report about a small campus in Kilkenny while earlier that morning she had been in Grangegorman launching the latest part of the DIT development to bring all of their small campuses together.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    Recent report on a university campus in Kilkenny comment piece in the Kilkenny people
    https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/315660/opinion-idea-of-a-university-campus-in-kilkenny-merits-thoughtful-consideration.html

    I dont know about this, to build a campus in Kilkenny seems to be folly when you have two fully equipped campuses 30 mins and 40 min away .A campus isnt just a set of buildings where students take classes its also needs social and sports facilities which would require a lot of investment which would be better spent on the existing Waterford and Carlow campuses .

    The dispersed small campus model has been shown to not really work as a student experience because they dont have the critical mass for all the facilities required. I found it ironic the the Mary Michelle O'Connor came to Kilkenny to launch a report about a small campus in Kilkenny while earlier that morning she had been in Grangegorman launching the latest part of the DIT development to bring all of their small campuses together.

    My own view is that Kilkenny be left out of the "SE University" and my preference is for another different college to establish a campus here instead- like the Maynooth one but not half hearted like that is.
    It would avoid all the squabbling that inevitably results as evidenced by your post and let Carlow/ Waterford get on with it. There's also a campus planned in Wexford too which is very far removed from either KK or Carlow.
    Either way it's not something that keeps most people awake at night- ironically 3rd Level attainment is actually highest in KK of the traditional SE counties so it doesn't seem to be a major barrier for a lot of us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    Maynooth are pulling out of Kilkenny this year , another strong indication that small campuses dont work.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Captain Havoc


    I went to a small specialist college, Shannon. Whilst it was great the college does miss out on stuff like sport or a decent sized library. I don't think we need another large college in this area and the money would probably be better spent in Carlow or Waterford. I think the same people calling for a college are probably those calling for Tesco, just because we don't have one, doesn't mean we need one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    I went to a small specialist college, Shannon. Whilst it was great the college does miss out on stuff like sport or a decent sized library. I don't think we need another large college in this area and the money would probably be better spent in Carlow or Waterford. I think the same people calling for a college are probably those calling for Tesco, just because we don't have one, doesn't mean we need one.
    Very fair points , this seems to be a pure parish pump politics agenda. I heard one of the authors of the report talking on KCLR and when he was asked about the extra facilitates that students would need he said they could run buses to Carlow and Waterford campuses to avail of their facilities , what a joke why bother have a campus at all then.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭ granturismo


    imacman wrote: »
    Very fair points , this seems to be a pure parish pump politics agenda. I heard one of the authors of the report talking on KCLR and when he was asked about the extra facilitates that students would need he said they could run buses to Carlow and Waterford campuses to avail of their facilities , what a joke why bother have a campus at all then.

    An earlier plan showed student accommodation on the site. These are a license to print money during term time never mind having them available in the middle of Kilkenny from end of May to early Sept for tourists.

    Busing students, paying staff travel expenses is nonsensical.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭ yagan


    Considering Kilkenny is such a tourist town wouldn't it more apt to at least run catering and hospitality courses? Classroom time could take place during the quieter winter months.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,375 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Captain Havoc


    yagan wrote: »
    Considering Kilkenny is such a tourist town wouldn't it more apt to at least run catering and hospitality courses? Classroom time could take place during the quieter winter months.

    WIT Have BAs in Hospitality Management, Tourism Marketing and Culinary Arts. Certs are available in Hospitality Studies, Business in Tourism and Culinary Arts. Unfortunately, the way things have gone, anyone who can pick up a frying pan can get a job as a cook because there is a shortage of qualified cooks, this is largely owing to the fact it is a terrible job. It is, of course, possible to get a degree via online courses, IT Sligo and UCD come to mind (I don't think either have tourism-related courses). I'm currently halfway through studying for a degree with the Open University.


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    WIT Have BAs in Hospitality Management, Tourism Marketing and Culinary Arts. Certs are available in Hospitality Studies, Business in Tourism and Culinary Arts. Unfortunately, the way things have gone, anyone who can pick up a frying pan can get a job as a cook because there is a shortage of qualified cooks, this is largely owing to the fact it is a terrible job. It is, of course, possible to get a degree via online courses, IT Sligo and UCD come to mind (I don't think either have tourism-related courses). I'm currently halfway through studying for a degree with the Open University.

    Exactly , you cant setup a course on a whim and the catering area is really well covered by existing courses in WIT, Carlow and online.The model for education is changing and with the growth in online courses we will need less physical campuses rather then more in the future.

    The idea of small campuses in places like Wexford ,Kilkenny Clonmel etc will be shown to be unsustainable where there is two large campuses in the region already. Of course parish pump politicians wont see it that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    Exactly , you cant setup a course on a whim and the catering area is really well covered by existing courses in WIT, Carlow and online.The model for education is changing and with the growth in online courses we will need less physical campuses rather then more in the future.

    The idea of small campuses in places like Wexford ,Kilkenny Clonmel etc will be shown to be unsustainable where there is two large campuses in the region already. Of course parish pump politicians wont see it that way.

    You really have a bee in your bonnet about this- might I suggest you focus your ire on other places like Galway and Dublin that have numerous colleges/funding already rather than the scraps "places like Wexford ,Kilkenny Clonmel etc " as you say, don't even get. It would be far better served.
    You've got places like Galway and Limerick that are only about three/four times the size of Kilkenny but with the luxury of 3/4 third level institutions, whereas we have the grand sum of zero!- that's the kind of inequality that grates on me, not WIT or Carlow which are still poor relations compared to colleges elsewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    Dublin, Cork, Galway etc have the population mass to supports those colleges, small regional towns in the south east don't .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,637 ✭✭✭ PhoenixParker


    Rather then a traditional "campus" Kilkenny could try something new.

    I'd suggest an online learning facilitation centre.
    So for courses run online offer a library, study space, labs, tutorial sessions, printing etc.

    The trimmings of a university but let people watch the lectures on line.

    Online learning is great but there's a huge drop out rate and lack of human contact. A few hours a week and the availability of some face to face interaction with like minded learners and tutors could really work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,452 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    imacman wrote: »
    Dublin, Cork, Galway etc have the population mass to supports those colleges, small regional towns in the south east don't .

    Galway and Limerick have two/three Third Level colleges- this is lavish considering their small populations and largely rural hinterlands. They are forever advertising for students in distant places like Kilkenny which tells you something.
    There is no way in hell these two should have ever had a University and an IT, a small city with 75k or 100k can have two or three colleges- another with 28k can't have one!. When people rightly complain about lacking of funding at WIT and Carlow IT's I suggest they direct their ire towards here rather than non existent colleges elsewhere :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,965 Help!!!!


    imacman wrote: »
    Recent report on a university campus in Kilkenny comment piece in the Kilkenny people
    https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/kilkenny-news/315660/opinion-idea-of-a-university-campus-in-kilkenny-merits-thoughtful-consideration.html

    I dont know about this, to build a campus in Kilkenny seems to be folly when you have two fully equipped campuses 30 mins and 40 min away .A campus isnt just a set of buildings where students take classes its also needs social and sports facilities which would require a lot of investment which would be better spent on the existing Waterford and Carlow campuses .

    The dispersed small campus model has been shown to not really work as a student experience because they dont have the critical mass for all the facilities required. I found it ironic the the Mary Michelle O'Connor came to Kilkenny to launch a report about a small campus in Kilkenny while earlier that morning she had been in Grangegorman launching the latest part of the DIT development to bring all of their small campuses together.

    Would far prefer a training college for apprenticeships in joinery/mechanic etc.
    There are many young people being badly neglected because everything is geared to 3rd level education so those not as academic end up with no real future. Would save them having to travel to Dublin or Waterford. Even if it was under the FAS/SOLAS banner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/606860/kilkenny-would-be-ideal-location-for-new-univeristy-hq-cleere.html
    https://www.wlrfm.com/2021/02/01/former-kilkenny-mayor-lambasts-waterford-cinderella-attitude-on-university-issue/
    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/south-east-university-delays-totally-unacceptable-howlin-39292891.html

    Here we go again.
    Peter Cleere, Paul Cuddihy in Kilkenny, Brendan Howlin in Wexford, who's next, advocating for a MMUSE (Mickey Mouse University for the South East). A campus in Carlow, another in Waterford, a HQ in Kilkenny and another Campus in Wexford. Why stop there, Enniscorthy, Clonmel, New Ross surely have a case for a campus each? And Dungarvan. I meant the one in Waterford but sure why not the one in Kilkenny too? Callan too, why not?
    This is horsesh1t.
    Have we collectively learned nothing in the South East about pooling resources, scaling up infrastructure to achieve critical mass, economies of scale?
    Have the aims of the National Framework Directive to scale up Waterford city for the benefit of the entire Southeast region been ditched?
    Have the lessons of the balls-up that was the South Eastern Health Board been forgotten already, even as we're all paying the price, watching our heart attack victims getting ambulanced out of the region to better resourced hospitals in Dublin & Cork?
    For the uninitiated and the slow of learning - we had a regional health board that ended up with its major acute hospital in the major regional population centre Waterford(Ardkeen/WRH/UHW), it's HQ in Kilkenny and it's ambulance centre in Wexford. One for everyone in the audience thanks to the local councillors on the SEHB voting in their usual parish pump fashion. We also had doctors in St. Luke's referring patients out of the region for specialties rather than 1/2 hour down the road to UHW.
    How did that all work out for us in the Southeast? The regional health board got broken up and subsumed into Cork and Dublin hospital groups and that's where the major health spending will continue to go.
    So back to the University issue; what's best practice? A consolidated campus or spread it around the region like Margarine?
    What did they do in UCD in the 60's & 70's with all the faculties spread around Earlsfort Terrace and elsewhere in Dublin city centre? They consolidated out in Belfield to create a world-class University. School-leavers from all-over including the Southeast want to go there.
    What did they do with DIT/ IT Blanchardstown & Tallaght? They're spending a Billion consolidating in Grangegorman to build TUD up to rival the established Universities. School-leavers from all-over including the Southeast will increasingly want to go there.
    Will our brightest school-leavers in the Southeast, who leave the region for a University education never to return, vote with their feet and choose this proposed dogs dinner of a University TUSEI over TCD,UCD, UCC, UL, UCG? :rolleyes:
    Is the new Munster Technological University (MTU) proposing to site its HQ in Killarney or Millstreet so as not to upset ITTralee or Kerry folk in general? Not on your nelly, it will be HQ'd in the major constituent college CIT Cork. End of.
    If this TUSEI abomination of a Uni under Tom Boland sees WIT getting diced and sliced and bits passed around the region in time-honoured pork-belly political fashion, it will be a slur on all responsible and a failure in it's primary mission. It will also be a dereliction of duty to all of the young people in the Southeast who want the choice of a proper 1st class University education within their own region.
    Putting the HQ for TUSEI in the Abbey Quarter would be a sop to Kilkenny that would sabotage any chance of a proper functioning 1st class University in WIT, literally the width of a river from Co. Kilkenny.
    So here's my question; are there any politicians, academics, business leaders or concerned citizens in Kilkenny who are prepared to call this proposal for the gombeen small-minded parish-pump-politics kite-flying exercise that it is?


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    https://www.kilkennypeople.ie/news/home/606860/kilkenny-would-be-ideal-location-for-new-univeristy-hq-cleere.html
    https://www.wlrfm.com/2021/02/01/former-kilkenny-mayor-lambasts-waterford-cinderella-attitude-on-university-issue/
    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/newrossstandard/news/south-east-university-delays-totally-unacceptable-howlin-39292891.html

    Here we go again.
    Peter Cleere, Paul Cuddihy in Kilkenny, Brendan Howlin in Wexford, who's next, advocating for a MMUSE (Mickey Mouse University for the South East). A campus in Carlow, another in Waterford, a HQ in Kilkenny and another Campus in Wexford. Why stop there, Enniscorthy, Clonmel, New Ross surely have a case for a campus each? And Dungarvan. I meant the one in Waterford but sure why not the one in Kilkenny too? Callan too, why not?
    This is horsesh1t.
    Have we collectively learned nothing in the South East about pooling resources, scaling up infrastructure to achieve critical mass, economies of scale?
    Have the aims of the National Framework Directive to scale up Waterford city for the benefit of the entire Southeast region been ditched?
    Have the lessons of the balls-up that was the South Eastern Health Board been forgotten already, even as we're all paying the price, watching our heart attack victims getting ambulanced out of the region to better resourced hospitals in Dublin & Cork?
    For the uninitiated and the slow of learning - we had a regional health board that ended up with its major acute hospital in the major regional population centre Waterford(Ardkeen/WRH/UHW), it's HQ in Kilkenny and it's ambulance centre in Wexford. One for everyone in the audience thanks to the local councillors on the SEHB voting in their usual parish pump fashion. We also had doctors in St. Luke's referring patients out of the region for specialties rather than 1/2 hour down the road to UHW.
    How did that all work out for us in the Southeast? The regional health board got broken up and subsumed into Cork and Dublin hospital groups and that's where the major health spending will continue to go.
    So back to the University issue; what's best practice? A consolidated campus or spread it around the region like Margarine?
    What did they do in UCD in the 60's & 70's with all the faculties spread around Earlsfort Terrace and elsewhere in Dublin city centre? They consolidated out in Belfield to create a world-class University. School-leavers from all-over including the Southeast want to go there.
    What did they do with DIT/ IT Blanchardstown & Tallaght? They're spending a Billion consolidating in Grangegorman to build TUD up to rival the established Universities. School-leavers from all-over including the Southeast will increasingly want to go there.
    Will our brightest school-leavers in the Southeast, who leave the region for a University education never to return, vote with their feet and choose this proposed dogs dinner of a University TUSEI over TCD,UCD, UCC, UL, UCG? :rolleyes:
    Is the new Munster Technological University (MTU) proposing to site its HQ in Killarney or Millstreet so as not to upset ITTralee or Kerry folk in general? Not on your nelly, it will be HQ'd in the major constituent college CIT Cork. End of.
    If this TUSEI abomination of a Uni under Tom Boland sees WIT getting diced and sliced and bits passed around the region in time-honoured pork-belly political fashion, it will be a slur on all responsible and a failure in it's primary mission. It will also be a dereliction of duty to all of the young people in the Southeast who want the choice of a proper 1st class University education within their own region.
    Putting the HQ for TUSEI in the Abbey Quarter would be a sop to Kilkenny that would sabotage any chance of a proper functioning 1st class University in WIT, literally the width of a river from Co. Kilkenny.
    So here's my question; are there any politicians, academics, business leaders or concerned citizens in Kilkenny who are prepared to call this proposal for the gombeen small-minded parish-pump-politics kite-flying exercise that it is?
    Great piece, its infuriating to listen to ex Kilkenny mayors and county councilors on the airwaves telling us how great a HQ would be in Kilkenny. Complete gombeen men , why would the HQ of a university in a place with no students. University management and leaders need to be in same location as the students and staff .

    The suggestion to put them in Kilkenny miles away from either campus could only be made by someone who has no concept of how a college/university is run . The only answer here is a HQ in the largest campus WIT with the president and upper management spending part of the week in Carlow . And im sure thats how it will play out .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,779 ✭✭✭ granturismo


    imacman wrote: »
    Great piece, its infuriating to listen to ex Kilkenny mayors and county councilors on the airwaves telling us how great a HQ would be in Kilkenny. Complete gombeen men , why would the HQ of a university in a place with no students. University management and leaders need to be in same location as the students and staff .

    The suggestion to put them in Kilkenny miles away from either campus could only be made by someone who has no concept of how a college/university is run . The only answer here is a HQ in the largest campus WIT with the president and upper management spending part of the week in Carlow . And im sure thats how it will play out .

    Universities have effectively been managed off campus for the past 11 months. Working from home has shown that admin staff in the majority nonacademic departments do not need to be on campus, they can work just as well from home so there is no reason why some admin and management roles have to be where the students and direct contact staff are.


  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭ Squidvicious


    imacman wrote: »
    Great piece, its infuriating to listen to ex Kilkenny mayors and county councilors on the airwaves telling us how great a HQ would be in Kilkenny. Complete gombeen men , why would the HQ of a university in a place with no students. University management and leaders need to be in same location as the students and staff .

    The suggestion to put them in Kilkenny miles away from either campus could only be made by someone who has no concept of how a college/university is run . The only answer here is a HQ in the largest campus WIT with the president and upper management spending part of the week in Carlow . And im sure thats how it will play out .
    I know that there's no huge distance between Kilkenny, Carlow and Waterford, but on what planet can it make sense to have two main campuses in Waterford and Carlow and then put the HQ somewhere else? I'm sure it can be done but how could it be best practise?


  • Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭ imacman


    Universities have effectively been managed off campus for the past 11 months. Working from home has shown that admin staff in the majority nonacademic departments do not need to be on campus, they can work just as well from home so there is no reason why some admin and management roles have to be where the students and direct contact staff are.

    Well if that's the argument there is no need for a HQ at all


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭ Dunmoreroader


    imacman wrote: »
    Well if that's the argument there is no need for a HQ at all

    :pac:


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