What Am I Entitled To?

Zak Flaps

Hi.

After working for approx 15 years with a company, they can no longer give me enough work to make my living.
I will have to move on.
I never signed a contract with them. It was casual work but you could pretty much say it was full-time as I worked approx 4 days per week.
The contract never really bothered me, as the work was flexible and I could work it round my life.
I was never paid any holiday pay in all my years there.

So am I entitled to any compensation?

Could this entitle me to backdated holiday pay?
https://www.harbottle.com/backdated-holiday-pay/

Thanks in advance.

jimmycrackcorm

Were you an employee on their payroll or working cash in hand or as a contact service?

Zak Flaps

Employee on the payroll. Paid my taxes etc.

davo10

Zak Flaps wrote: »

Employee on the payroll. Paid my taxes etc.

When you say "paid my taxes" do you mean you paid your own taxes, or does your employer deduct your tax/levies from your weekly wage?

Also, you said you are "moving on", are you leaving or are you being let go?

OMM 0000

From Citizens Information:

Casual employees
There is no definition of casual employees in employment law. In reality, casual workers are on standby to do work as required without fixed hours or attendance arrangements. However, these workers are employees, for employment rights purposes.

Some legislation will apply, for example, the right to receive a pay slip. In other instances where a set period of employment is required it will be unlikely that a casual employee will have sufficient service to qualify, for example, 2 years' service is required in order to be entitled to statutory redundancy.

OK, so let's check out the statutory redundancy text.

Where you lose your job due to circumstances such as the closure of the business or a reduction in the number of staff this is known as redundancy. Generally a redundancy situation arises if your job ceases to exist and you are not replaced.

To be eligible for a redundancy payment under the Acts, you must satisfy the following requirements:
You must have worked continuously for your employer for at least 104 weeks over the age of 16.
You must have been made redundant.

Were you made redundant, or just given less hours?
Have you worked continuously for them for 2 years, or where there periods where you didn't work for them?

Let's keep going.

Your employer must give you at least 2 weeks' notice of the redundancy. On the date of the termination of employment your employer should pay the redundancy lump sum due to you.

If your employer has not paid your redundancy lump sum, you should apply to your employer for it using form RP77 (pdf). If your employer still refuses to pay it, you can apply to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection for direct payment from the Social Insurance Fund. This must be done online using form RP50.

What are you entitled to?

The statutory redundancy payment is a lump-sum payment based on the pay of the employee. All eligible employees are entitled to:

Two weeks' pay for every year of service over the age of 16 and
One further week's pay
The amount of statutory redundancy is subject to a maximum earnings limit of €600 per week (€31,200 per year).

But we need to know:

Were you made redundant, or just given less hours? It's not clear from your original post.

Zak Flaps

davo10 wrote: »

When you say "paid my taxes" do you mean you paid your own taxes, or does your employer deduct your tax/levies from your weekly wage?

Also, you said you are "moving on", are you leaving or are you being let go?

Thank you.

Employer deducts my tax/levies etc.

I am moving on myself as there is no point staying with them because the hours I get have dropped dramatically (though no fault of their own).

Zak Flaps

OMM 0000 wrote: »

From Citizens Information:

Were you made redundant, or just given less hours?
Have you worked continuously for them for 2 years, or where there periods where you didn't work for them?

But we need to know:

Were you made redundant, or just given less hours? It's not clear from your original post.

I will be given much less hours. Not enough to live off.
So not being made redundant.
I've worked continuously for them for 15 years.

davo10

Zak Flaps wrote: »

I will be given much less hours. Not enough to live off.
So not being made redundant.
I've worked continuously for them for 15 years.

If you are leaving voluntarily, then holiday pay is probably all you can claim.

Tigger

davo10 wrote: »

If you are leaving voluntarily, then holiday pay is probably all you can claim.

You can’t just reduce someone’s hours so they leave
You have to get them to agree that they will take reduced hours because otherwise they would have to be made redundant
15 years is 32 weeks pay owed
If you were never paid holidays you are owed 8% of a years pay for each year you were employed which is probably 60 weeks pay
So your owed a lot of money
Go to a solicitor that has experiance in employment law tomorrow

davo10

Tigger wrote: »

You can’t just reduce someone’s hours so they leave
You have to get them to agree that they will take reduced hours because otherwise they would have to be made redundant
15 years is 32 weeks pay owed
If you were never paid holidays you are owed 8% of a years pay for each year you were employed which is probably 60 weeks pay
So your owed a lot of money
Go to a solicitor that has experiance in employment law tomorrow

Is there not a two year limit on the amount of unpaid holiday leave pay you can claim?

Op said work was casual, if they don't have enough work for him maybe they are giving him what they can but it is not enough. I didn't get the sense from the op that his employer is trying to get him to leave, more that the work isn't there, maybe the op could clarify if he is being forced out or is the work drying up.

Tigger

davo10 wrote: »

Is there not a two year limit on the amount of unpaid holiday leave pay you can claim?

Op said work was casual, if they don't have enough work for him maybe they are giving him what they can but it is not enough. I didn't get the sense from the op that his employer is trying to get him to leave, more that the work isn't there, maybe the op could clarify if he is being forced out or is the work drying up.

A two year limit ? You are entitled to your holiday pay it’s the law an employer may ask you to take your holidays and not them build up but that’s different to not paying holidays
If you worked for me and I wanted you gone I can not reduce your hours so you leave I have to offer you reduced hours as an alternatitive to my being forced to make you redundant

Casual work for 15 years ?

The op needs to go to a solicitor

cdeb

Did you take any holidays?

davo10

Tigger wrote: »

A two year limit ? You are entitled to your holiday pay it’s the law an employer may ask you to take your holidays and not them build up but that’s different to not paying holidays
If you worked for me and I wanted you gone I can not reduce your hours so you leave I have to offer you reduced hours as an alternatitive to my being forced to make you redundant

Casual work for 15 years ?

The op needs to go to a solicitor

Skip down to "losing the job?" Section. You can claim for unpaid leave in the current and previous year only.


https://employmentrightsireland.com/how-to-calculate-holiday-entitlements/

Or here is the relevant section in th statute:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/section/23/enacted/en/html#sec23

OMM 0000

Tigger wrote: »

Go to a solicitor that has experiance in employment law tomorrow

I understand what you mean, but I don't know if it's the right route. If the company has no money, it's going to be hard to get anything from them.

I would talk to the employer first to see if an agreement can be made.

Heebie

I don't think redundancy would apply because they didn't let you go or make your position redundant, they reduced your hours... but as a casual employee they're not really under any obligation to give you hours.
If you leave of your own accord rather than being fired or made redundant, there's likely no entitlement at all.

If you've been paying into PRSI, you're likely eligible for job seekers benefit for 9 months, then job seekers allowance of you can jump through all the hoops to qualify for it.

Reducing your hours to less than you can live on might be their method for terminating employees... by getting them to quit, so they don't have to pay redundancy. It might be their business model.

I'd check with an employment law solicitor if I were in your shoes. It'll probably cost you €300 or so, but you'll know exactly what you are (and aren't) entitled to.

Zak Flaps

My hours have been reduced through no fault of their own. Another company have taken over some of their work so they have a lot less to give out.
They would always offer me most of the work as i'd be the senior member of the workers.
I actually started working for them in 1995, but only did a few things here and there, cash in hand etc.
Became more full time (with no contract) in 2002 (still cash in hand) but around 2005 it all went through the books....been with them since...

Maybe seeing a solicitor is the best course of action?
Just wanted to see what you guys thought, you might have some experience.
Resent them for never paying holiday pay.
Was thinking of going for backdated holiday pay. Thought you could only go back a year os so but this article led me to believe that I could get all holiday pay due to me.

https://www.harbottle.com/backdated-holiday-pay/

PS: The other company taking over some of their work said I could do some work for them, but the company i work for now said that I can't work for both!

Tigger

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I understand what you mean, but I don't know if it's the right route. If the company has no money, it's going to be hard to get anything from them.

I would talk to the employer first to see if an agreement can be made.

If the company has no money it will have to pay the redundancy and go but or go bust and he gets it from the state anyway
His holiday pay will be gone if they go bust however

Tigger

Zak Flaps wrote: »

My hours have been reduced through no fault of their own. Another company have taken over some of their work so they have a lot less to give out.
They would always offer me most of the work as i'd be the senior member of the workers.
I actually started working for them in 1995, but only did a few things here and there, cash in hand etc.
Became more full time (with no contract) in 2002 (still cash in hand) but around 2005 it all went through the books....been with them since...

Maybe seeing a solicitor is the best course of action?
Just wanted to see what you guys thought, you might have some experience.
Resent them for never paying holiday pay.
Was thinking of going for backdated holiday pay. Thought you could only go back a year os so but this article led me to believe that I could get all holiday pay due to me.

https://www.harbottle.com/backdated-holiday-pay/

PS: The other company taking over some of their work said I could do some work for them, but the company i work for now said that I can't work for both!

Don’t do anything or sign anything till you have talked to a solicitor

Zak Flaps

Tigger wrote: »

If the company has no money it will have to pay the redundancy and go but or go bust and he gets it from the state anyway
His holiday pay will be gone if they go bust however

They have money.

Squatter

Before going to a solicitor go to your local Citizens Information Office who can fill you in on your entitlements. Bring last year's P60 and some recent payslips - and better still if you can bring earlier year's P60s so they can see how your annual has declined.

Have you read this? http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/contracts_of_employment/being_asked_to_reduce_your_hours_of_work.html

Citizens Info can also arrange a free solicitor consultation for you through FLAC, or may put you in touch with Workplace Relations.

davo10

Zak Flaps wrote: »

My hours have been reduced through no fault of their own. Another company have taken over some of their work so they have a lot less to give out.
They would always offer me most of the work as i'd be the senior member of the workers.
I actually started working for them in 1995, but only did a few things here and there, cash in hand etc.
Became more full time (with no contract) in 2002 (still cash in hand) but around 2005 it all went through the books....been with them since...

Maybe seeing a solicitor is the best course of action?
Just wanted to see what you guys thought, you might have some experience.
Resent them for never paying holiday pay.
Was thinking of going for backdated holiday pay. Thought you could only go back a year os so but this article led me to believe that I could get all holiday pay due to me.

https://www.harbottle.com/backdated-holiday-pay/

PS: The other company taking over some of their work said I could do some work for them, but the company i work for now said that I can't work for both!

The case you refer to is in the U.K., and it seems that it is being appealed so no gaurantee it will hold up. Also, each member state has its own legislation so even though the ECJ makes a judgment, that does not mean it will adopted into Irish law, an example of this is the ruling on VRT.

If you are leaving of your own accord, how is this a redundancy situation? Is your job being abolished or will they have to get someone to do it?

In relation to Tiggers post about the state paying redundancy, statutory redundancy tends to be a lot lower than employers redundancy.

Tigger

Zak Flaps wrote: »

They have money.

Good
Go to a solicitor and get what your owed

Tigger

davo10 wrote: »

The case you refer to is in the U.K., and it seems that it is being appealed so no gaurantee it will hold up. Also, each member state has its own legislation so even though the ECJ makes a judgment, that does not mean it will adopted into Irish law, an example of this is the ruling on VRT.

If you are leaving of your own accord, how is this a redundancy situation? Is your job being abolished or will they have to get someone to do it?

In relation to Tiggers post about the state paying redundancy, statutory redundancy tends to be a lot lower than employers redundancy.

Stat redundancy is 2 weeks per year plus two weeks
For 15 years it’s 32 weeks pay

Owryan

Whatever about redundancy which doesn't seem to be the case here, surely you should be asking why you never received holiday pay.

You should give NERA a call, they will advice you on your options.

Tigger

Owryan wrote: »

Whatever about redundancy which doesn't seem to be the case here, surely you should be asking why you never received holiday pay.

You should give NERA a call, they will advice you on your options.

How is redundancy not the case
If there is no work for him then he’s redundant
Employers use the trick of getting people to leave by cutting their hours to get around redundancy obligations

Stheno

Tigger wrote: »

How is redundancy not the case
If there is no work for him then he’s redundant
Employers use the trick of getting people to leave by cutting their hours to get around redundancy obligations

i think it's a grey area in ops case and they need to see a solicitor tbh

Owryan

Tigger wrote: »

How is redundancy not the case
If there is no work for him then he’s redundant
Employers use the trick of getting people to leave by cutting their hours to get around redundancy obligations

He said he is leaving not that he is being let go. That's the pertinent point. By all means let him look for it but it's by no means a slam dunk.

CiarraiAbu2

You were entitled to a contract within two months of employment.

davo10

Tigger wrote: »

How is redundancy not the case
If there is no work for him then he’s redundant
Employers use the trick of getting people to leave by cutting their hours to get around redundancy obligations

The op said his hours/work has been reduced, not that there is no work for him. I appreciate that the op wasn't given a contract, but a standard clause in many employees contracts state that hours can be reduced depending on business needs. It sounds like the op needs to earn more than he is currently earning and wants/needs to move on.

Incidentally, statutory is capped at €600 per week, employers redundancy is based on weekly wage at time employee was made redundant. After 15 years, chances are those payments are not even close.

Tigger

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

You were entitled to a contract within two months of employment.

He was entitled to terms and conditions, but yes.