Surprised at (poor) EV buying experience

meep

Not having much exposure to Ev or Hybrid, but as something I'd seriously consider, I was surprised by the following and wonder is this typical, or even true.....

I was chatting to my father in law last night about his impending new car purchase. He's semi-retired and has driven Toyota's for pretty much as long as I can recall, 20 years for sure. He changes every 2 or 3 years for a new model Corolla or Auris. Recent models have been diesel.

Anyway, chatting to him last year, he was very very open to EV or Hybrid. He had a non-serious nosey around at that time, but in the last few weeks has been seriously looking at options for 182.

As usual, he went back to his long-term Toyota dealer but became increasingly unconvinced on the value or applicability of EV. He and his wife chiefly use the car to potter about town so would seem ideal candidates, but they will occasionally traverse the country on short breaks and, looking at distances involved and the stated range of the vehicles, he was turned off pure electric immediately.

Looking at Hybrid, he was struck by the brochures which all amped up the green credentials of the Toyota hybrid. No mention of running costs. He noted that of 4 'customer quotes' on a brochure, all were concerned with future environmental benefits, not here and now financial benefits. (my daughter is disgusted at his 'short sighted' thinking, but that's another story).

Asking around, he claims to have spoken to people who indicate that Hybrids are quite expensive to run (is this true?). Interestingly, when I asked if he was offered the Toyota 'buy hybrid now, swap later if not happy' deal, he said 'no'. So no Toyota this time.

He then headed for Hyundai as he knows the owner fairly well through business. (well enough to have an honest conversation, he would feel). That dealership advised against pure electric for his needs (owner cited a recent trip he himself had made that turned into a mission in logistics). They also pretty much flatly refused to sell him a hybrid stating that the trade-in value in a few years would be very low due to anticipated non-demand and general apathy (I assume because pure electric will continue to improve and the case for hybrid will diminish?)

In the end, he's ordered a diesel i30.

So, as a purchase journey of someone open to electric, would this be typical? It could be argued that age has something to do with it but he was very open-minded on the issue and took the time to have a good look around and talk to owners outside the dealer bubble (his neighbour has a leaf, for example).

The most surprising thing for me in this story was the attitude of the dealership towards EV. They really did nothing at all to sell the benefits and, in fact, kind of went out of their way to NOT sell the cars.

Now, I can see a logic for this. They want to ensure they keep a (new) customer happy with their purchase. And, perhaps, as a service centre, they want to keep the after-sales income stream of DPF flushes and timing belts and the like as a cash cow for as long as possible. Could this be a thing?

Anyhow, I'd be interested in some thoughts from this community on the above as the starting point for my own research for when I'm next in the market.

Thanks for reading.

Arbie

Depends on the dealer and the brand.

My experience was:
Nissan Deansgrange excellent re: Leaf
BMW Naas Road very good re: i3
Hyundai awful re: ioniq, had to try 3 dealers before 1 would entertain discussion and they knew less than I did, and when I mentioned Kona they laughed and laughed...
Tesla excellent (1.5 hour test drive in a P90D!)
VW very good re: eGolf

I think you're right that they're thinking of servicing and also keeping people happy. No one is going to have range anxiety in a Pulsar or i30 so easier to offer that. Availability and margins are probably also a factor.

colm_mcm

Toyota don’t do full electric cars so it’s not surprising they turned him off them.
Far as I know Hyundai have supply issues on EVs so again, not surprising they sell what they have. Bit odd that he went with diesel over petrol but to be fair but there’s one party buying and one party selling and your dad had the power to buy what he wanted.

fleet

The range issue is insurmountable with today's technology, assuming it's your only car, and that you will need to do long runs.

If a potential buyer needs to ask a dealer about it then they clearly don't understand the technology, so surely the dealership will just sell ICE car they knows won't result in a disgruntled OAP on their forecourt next month.

slave1

Is this not a trait of car dealers in general though, IMHE they want a quick sale with as much mark up as possible and as high a price as they think they can charge you and if you ask too many questions or start taking too much time they will lost interest very quickly if they sense they're not getting a sale.

meep

Thanks for all the thoughts and info so far.

One of the key questions I have myself is around running costs on Hybrids which emerged as an issue in the scenario outlined. Is it the case that they are comparatively expensive day to day (vs diesel or petrol)?

s8n

Tldr

Shefwedfan

Hybrid are not expensive to run. If you check the current ad campaign from Toyota which is all customers of toyota they all discuss the low cost. Now they are getting paid but it is true

My bro/sis in law have hybrids from Toyota. Rav4 & CH-R. They are both very impressed with MPG, the Rav4 did take a few miles to really start working but they are happy now. All of it is more or less city driving with the odd trip down the country. If they like Toyota and dont want to swap then go Hybrid.

In regards to dealers and electric, they are f**king useless. Sorry for my english but most of them are shocking. They seem unwilling to sell. I am not sure about VW as I ran the sales conversation with them as I knew exactly what I wanted and all they had to do was send me a price :-)

Hyundai I found shocking, they hadn't a breeze and would prefer to sell me an i40. I do agree about the Hybrid Ioniq, they have not sold in ireland in great numbers so I wouldn't expect a huge resale value.

I think they should hold on for the Kona full BEV. Read thread here. The height would be great, my parents bought a Qashqai to get the height, and also full electric with a great range. It will be next year before they can buy

If not, stick with Toyota but go for something like CH-R but buy hybrid....Diesel is dead :-)

listermint

Your father's a regular punter obviously as you pointed out.

Possibly an easy sell.

It's these people dealers will use to sell off they're expiring diesel stock to with all the waffle in the world about the failings of other engine types

quenching

meep wrote: »

Thanks for all the thoughts and info so far.

One of the key questions I have myself is around running costs on Hybrids which emerged as an issue in the scenario outlined. Is it the case that they are comparatively expensive day to day (vs diesel or petrol)?

We had a Toyota Prius for 5 years and it was by far the cheapest car to run that we ever had (until a Leaf). Other than fuel (52mpg over 5 years of suburban school runs etc) and an annual service (Toyota were very reasonably priced, average €200), it didn’t need anything else replacing or fixing. I sold it after 5 years for €3000 less than I paid for it from a main dealer. I tend to do my sums very carefully when spending money on cars and I firmly believe hybrids are way cheaper to run than a comparable petrol or diesel. But nothing will beat a 15 year old Yaris if it’s cheap to run you’re after. Hybrids, Toyotas in particular seem to hold their value quite well too, even more so these days. Who claims hybrids are expensive to run? I’d be surprised if they actually own one.

Dglflyer

Car dealers and manufacturers do really not want to sell electric cars, it destroys their bottom line. If Tesla didnt force their hand this would have taken a lot longer. They cant gouge you any more with aftersales service. An electric car has 99% fewer moving parts an ice car has, by its very nature there is very little to go wrong. No oil changes, no timing belts ,no spark plugs, no oil filters, no fan belts, no radiators, leaky o-rings , can never blow a head gasket. Its game over for ICE, the penny needs to drop with the dealers, if you are not selling electric cars, you wont be selling cars at all...

goz83

Its unfortunate your FIL has gone ahead and ordered another dirty diesel. A hybrid would have made much more sense for his driving. A pure electric would also likely have worked, because you can get a couple hundred klms out of the ioniq or the new Leaf on a single charge.

The dealers are truly awful when it comes to promoting anything other than diesel. Sure why would they promote anything else? Bread and butter.

Hint: never ask a sales man for advice.

magentis

s8n wrote: »

Tldr

Classy.

unkel

fleet wrote: »

The range issue is insurmountable with today's technology, assuming it's your only car, and that you will need to do long runs.

Kona EV is out next month. It has a real life range of 500km. I doubt the FIL of the OP has ever driven more than 500km in Ireland in one day.

gizmo555

unkel wrote: »

Kona EV is out next month.

In Ireland?

unkel

Yes. It's supposed to be in the Irish showrooms next month. In Norway it's already for sale for delivery next month. Irish price will not be cheap though, I'd say not a chance of getting the 64kWh model on the road for under €35k.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Yes. It's supposed to be in the Irish showrooms next month. In Norway it's already for sale for delivery next month. Irish price will not be cheap though, I'd say not a chance of getting the 64kWh model on the road for under €35k.

It still is a very good price for a 200 bhp vehicle. How much would a ICE hot-hatch version of Kona cost?

gizmo555

unkel wrote: »

Yes. It's supposed to be in the Irish showrooms next month. In Norway it's already for sale for delivery next month. Irish price will not be cheap though, I'd say not a chance of getting the 64kWh model on the road for under €35k.

Thanks for this - I asked a dealer about it a couple of months ago and got no clear answer, but he said he didn't expect it to be available here till next year.

It's not cheap, but if you can get it as a company car (which I could, as I'm self-employed), the tax incentives are huge.

Water John

Will you lease, via the company? I'm similar, just what are my options?

gizmo555

Water John wrote: »

Will you lease, via the company? I'm similar, just what are my options?

Not sure, planning to have a chat with my accountant to see what yields the best tax savings.

For example, as well as the BIK relief, for an outright purchase you can use the Accelerated (excuse the unintended pun!) Capital Allowance scheme to claim the full price of the car as a business expense in the year it's bought, instead of depreciating it over something like six years.

Water John

Yeah thanks. I presume you can also put the lease cost, maintenance, charging and insurance all in, as business costs. That would mean no capital spend on purchase.

MickH503

OSI wrote: »

In urban driving they'd be significantly cheaper day to day than either.

What about non urban driving - would it be comparable to similar petrol model performance?

Calahonda52

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not sure, planning to have a chat with my accountant to see what yields the best tax savings.

For example, as well as the BIK relief, for an outright purchase you can use the Accelerated (excuse the unintended pun!) Capital Allowance scheme to claim the full price of the car as a business expense in the year it's bought, instead of depreciating it over something like six years.

IIRC there is a ceiling of 24k for the ACA for elec cars, and a clawback if you dispose of it before maybe 8 years

meep

unkel wrote: »

Kona EV is out next month. It has a real life range of 500km. I doubt the FIL of the OP has ever driven more than 500km in Ireland in one day.

Well, he cites a recent journey fron NE to SW and back for a golf game which came in ~600KM afaik. Though it was very much a once off.

Like others, I was very surprised he went for a diesel and tried to dig down to the reasons why. As others have indicated, I would have expected a hybrid to suit down to the ground. It was the perceived running costs that swung it in the end.

Thanks again for all the opinions and insights offered here. It's been useful for my own information.

Shefwedfan

meep wrote: »

Well, he cites a recent journey fron NE to SW and back for a golf game which came in ~600KM afaik. Though it was very much a once off.

Like others, I was very surprised he went for a diesel and tried to dig down to the reasons why. As others have indicated, I would have expected a hybrid to suit down to the ground. It was the perceived running costs that swung it in the end.

Thanks again for all the opinions and insights offered here. It's been useful for my own information.

To be honest if I was you I would tell him to cancel it....

meep

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest if I was you I would tell him to cancel it....

Indeed. I will bring these points up. I'd say he'll just go ahead with the order and take a harder look in a couple of years when it's time to change again.

zilog_jones

From my experience and what I've seen here, you have to put in the effort yourself if you want to buy a hybrid or EV - the dealers aren't going to be much help really. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the problem with Hyundai having no interest in selling you an EV is that they have serious supply issues and barely have any Ioniq Electrics in the country to sell. Of course Toyota are useless for EVs right now, and the Prius PHV (plug-in hybrid) is stupidly overpriced in this country so as good as sale-proof.

As others said, the Toyota hybrids can work out cheaper to run that an equivalent diesel. Petrol may cost more, and older models didn't do so well in terms of fuel consumption at motorway speeds (no longer the case for current gen, e.g. 4th gen Prius, C-HR, new Auris whenever that's out), but they're great at lower speeds and maintenance costs are significantly lower. I'm surprised the Toyota salesman did not help in this regard, they should be well used to hybrids at this stage.

Something else to consider is that the Toyota hybrids are all automatics with none of the downsides of traditional auto boxes. I'm totally done with driving a manual as a daily driver in my 30s, never mind when I'd be in my 60s!

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

To be honest if I was you I would tell him to cancel it....

I would second this....at least until he actually gets information from people not trying to sell him a piece of sh1t which will be worth buttons in 3 years.

Sesame

I went from diesel to hybrid and notice slightly more fuel costs, particularly at the start of my hybrid driving
I drive mostly through suburia. I've got the hang of how to keep fuel economy down to about 125% of my diesel costs.
But my diesel was very expensive in servicing probably due to my stop start usage.
My Toyota is cheaper to tax and insure. And nicer to drive.
The dash has informative displays about usage when the battery is running, when the engine kicks in and when you are on both. It also has 3 modes to switch between, eco for efficiency (and less power), fully electric, you get about 3km in fully electric mode in slow traffic and a power mode (never tried it!)

unkel

Sesame wrote: »

But my diesel was very expensive in servicing probably due to my stop start usage.

Good point. Modern diesels can present its owner with massive bills for stuff that shouldn't really have gone wrong in the first place. DPF, DMF, injectors, what have you, all costing over a grand :eek:

Whereas in a Toyota hybrid you have very reliable technology. And in an EV, there simply is almost nothing in there that can go wrong.

I too would urge the OP tell the man to reconsider. And maybe go for a 24h test drive in a pure EV Kona when it comes out in the showrooms next month. He will be very thankful to you if you manage to persuade him, I have no doubt about it.

Dglflyer

Unkel, dude keep the Kona sh*t on the down low , its only more people I will have to trample over in the que ;-)

ELM327

Dglflyer wrote: »

Unkel, dude keep the Kona sh*t on the down low , its only more people I will have to trample over in the que ;-)

There will be a large audience and few models available.
Same as every other EV that comes out, it seems they can't bring them to market quick enough. You'd swear there was a global battery shortage

billy few mates

You have to remember you're dealing with salespeople, they sell for a living so they know how to do it. They're not going to put any effort into trying to sell something that they can't get hold of.
This was the experience I had when I went looking for an EV or a hybrid, the salespeople made no effort to try and flog me one, they didn't seem convinced about the technology themselves and in some cases tried to dissuade me from buying.
I had a couple of models in mind, I was a cash buyer with a desirable trade in and when I said I was interested in X which wasn't readily available I was pointed towards Y which was widely available. Even trying to arrange a test drive was a chore, they didn't have one available, it wasn't fully charged etc etc, and no attempt to haggle a deal.
In most cases I knew more about the cars I was looking at than the guys "trying" to sell them.
The impression I got was that they just weren't worth the effort trying to sell them, the real money was in the diesel equivalent of which they had dozens in stock, ready for a cash buyer.

unkel

Far higher margin (and thus sales commission) on a diesel than an EV. I never listen to a word any car sales man has to say. I do my own prep, pitch many dealers against each other and go in straight for the best negotiated deal.

unkel

Dglflyer wrote: »

Unkel, dude keep the Kona sh*t on the down low , its only more people I will have to trample over in the que ;-)

Total allocation for 2018 was sold out in Norway in 2 days. And that was for the high spec, high power, high range 64kWh model, which is not cheap at all!

Things even in Ireland are completely different from say about one year ago. Back then people didn't know / didn't care about EVs. But people are getting the picture now. Everybody knows we'll all drive EVs soon. People are trying to jump on the bandwagon, but the bandwagon is tiny