Divorced in Ireland from marriage in Las Vegas, can one marry in Catholic Church ?

AmboMan

Hi, as the title says I was married in Las Vegas and divorced in Ireland. I was never married in a Catholic Church, does that mean I could get married in a Catholic Church in Ireland ?
Couldn’t find an answer to this online & also apologies if I’ve posted in a wrong forum as a religious forum may be more appropriate.

Thanks in advance for any info or advice.

Pkiernan

AmboMan wrote: »

Hi, as the title says I was married in Las Vegas and divorced in Ireland. I was never married in a Catholic Church, does that mean I could get married in a Catholic Church in Ireland ?
Couldn’t find an answer to this online & also apologies if I’ve posted in a wrong forum as a religious forum may be more appropriate.

Thanks in advance for any info or advice.

Does the Irish state recognise your divorce and will it Grant you a Freedom to Marry Certificate?
If so you should be fine.

AmboMan

Pkiernan wrote: »

Does the Irish state recognise your divorce and will it Grant you a Freedom to Marry Certificate?
If so you should be fine.

Thanks for the reply, I was separated & divorced in the Family Law Court in Dublin.

coylemj

Pkiernan wrote: »

Does the Irish state recognise your divorce and will it Grant you a Freedom to Marry Certificate?

OP got divorced in Ireland which answers that question but it doesn't affect the OP's ability to marry in a catholic church since the church will not recognise the (civil) marriage in Las Vegas, whether it was dissolved via a divorce or not.

If there's any doubt about your civil marital status, you can still get married in a catholic church without the civil paperwork. All they care about is whether you were ever married in a catholic church. That's how you get married in a catholic church in France for example, it's purely a religious ceremony so couples usually go to the town hall the day before for a civil ceremony.

But as the OP was divorced in Ireland, the church wedding can include the civil paperwork since he/she is unmarried in the eyes of the law.

splinter65

Speak to your priest. Your not automatically entitled to any of the Sacraments just because you ask for them.
As a couple, arrange to meet the priest you want to marry you, be totally upfront with him and take if from there.

Marcusm

coylemj wrote: »

OP got divorced in Ireland which answers that question but it doesn't affect the OP's ability to marry in a catholic church since the church will not recognise the (civil) marriage in Las Vegas, whether it was dissolved via a divorce or not.

If there's any doubt about your civil marital status, you can still get married in a catholic church without the civil paperwork. All they care about is whether you were ever married in a catholic church. That's how you get married in a catholic church in France for example, it's purely a religious ceremony so couples usually go to the town hall the day before for a civil ceremony.

But as the OP was divorced in Ireland, the church wedding can include the civil paperwork since he/she is unmarried in the eyes of the law.

It may not have been a civil marriage in Las Vegas, many of the “chapels” are just that and the celebrants Protestant ministers. Out of ecumenical sensitivity, it might be recognised by the Catholic Church as a valid sacramental Union.

coylemj

Marcusm wrote: »

It may not have been a civil marriage in Las Vegas, many of the “chapels” are just that and the celebrants Protestant ministers.

In Las Vegas, highly unlikely. But even if it was a religious as well as civil ceremony.....

Marcusm wrote: »

Out of ecumenical sensitivity, it might be recognised by the Catholic Church as a valid sacramental Union.

'ecumenical sensitivity' - like the time the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin publicly criticised the (Roman Catholic) President of Ireland (Mary McAleese) for taking communion when she attended a Protestant service?

The only Protestant ceremony recognised by the Catholic Church is their baptism. You cannot be married in any way other than by a Catholic priest for it to be recognised by the Catholic church.

AmboMan

Thanks for the advice & replies.

finbarrk

I think the talk to the local priest advice was the best one.

ezra_

coylemj wrote: »

The only Protestant ceremony recognised by the Catholic Church is their baptism. You cannot be married in any way other than by a Catholic priest for it to be recognised by the Catholic church.

Not quite true.

If you are a Catholic, who is marrying an Anglican in an Anglican ceremony, you can seek the permission of the Catholic Church. This involves you undertaking the same preparation as if you were being married in a Catholic Ceremony (pre-marriage course, certs etc) and you also need a letter, I believe from your local Bishop, seeking his approval.

If granted, the Church will recognise the marriage.

My local reverend told my (Catholic) fianceé that if she didn't do this and subsequently wanted to hold a marriage ceremony in a Catholic church, she would be able to as without the above rigmarole, the wedding would be void ab initio from a Cannon law perspective.

listermint

How would the priest even know ....

splinter65

listermint wrote: »

How would the priest even know ....

Lovely.

Sassygirl1999

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/divorce-annulments-and-remarriage/

hullaballoo

I'm not sure this is the right forum. This forum is for discussion of secular laws and not canon law. Would this be better off in the Christianity forum?

At least there's a prospect there that someone will definitively answer. Here all you'll get are guesses, some informed and some really not.

Marcusm

coylemj wrote: »

In Las Vegas, highly unlikely. But even if it was a religious as well as civil .

Have you attended one? I have and all the participants assumed it was only to be a civil ceremony in The Little Chapel of the West but as the groom and I produced the legal papers and paid the fee in the office beforehand, lo and behold we discovered that it was indeed a religious service!

JustAThought

Marcusm wrote: »

Have you attended one? I have and all the participants assumed it was only to be a civil ceremony in The Little Chapel of the West but as the groom and I produced the legal papers and paid the fee in the office beforehand, lo and behold we discovered that it was indeed a religious service!

But I think how they classify and recognise Churches in the USA is also quite different to what one might expect! I would imagine you would rather ask a Priest who was onside in relation to being sympathetic to your problem - maybe ring the chaplincy in Trinity and ask for the Catholic Priest there or to make an appointment to phone them or the priest in WIT - they are quite on the ball and used to a younger audience and might be a more reasonable place to start before approaching your 75 yo local Priest who may have a less youthful outlook! Best of Luck!

Peregrinus

Catholic church rules require that if you're a Catholic you get married in a Catholic ceremony, or get a dispensation allowing you to get married in a non-Catholic service; otherwise they regard the marriage as invalid. But of course no such rules applies to non-Catholics.

I assume that the Las Vegas marriage was not a Catholic ceremony.

The OP doesn't say whether he was a Catholic at the time of his first marriage in Las Vegas. If he was, or if his first wife was, and if they didn't get a dispensation allowing them to marry in a non-Catholic ceremony, then the Catholic church is likely to take the view that his first marriage was not valid, and he is free to marry in a church now. There'll be a bit of paperwork to verify the facts, but the chances of being able to have a church wedding now are good. It's certainly worth asking.

However if neither of the couple were Catholics, or if there was a dispensation granted, then the first marriage will be regarded as vald, and chances are that the OP will not be able to have a Catholic church wedding.

JustAThought

Indeed - and if neither of the couples are Catholic they will not be allowed get married in a Catholic Church. Or the local priest might refuse to conduct the ceremony or to allow it happen in 'his' Church. I had a (Catholic) friend who wanted to marry a non Catholic partner - for various reasons (not ever living in the parish, living and working abroad and wanting to be married at home in Ireland) no parish priest would do the ceremony or allow it to be held in 'their' Church - it got really messy - finally someone suggested the Priest in Howth who had a reputation for being partucularly helpful & suddenly it all fell into place and they got married and lived happily ever after!

Peregrinus

JustAThought wrote: »

Indeed - and if neither of the couples are Catholic they will not be allowed get married in a Catholic Church. Or the local priest might refuse to conduct the ceremony or to allow it happen in 'his' Church. I had a (Catholic) friend who wanted to marry a non Catholic partner - for various reasons (not ever living in the parish, living and working abroad and wanting to be married at home in Ireland) no parish priest would do the ceremony or allow it to be held in 'their' Church - it got really messy - finally someone suggested the Priest in Howth who had a reputation for being partucularly helpful & suddenly it all fell into place and they got married and lived happily ever after!

The general rule is that you are supposed to be married in the parish of one of the spouses. Assuming the spouses live in different parishes, that gives you a choice of two parishes. If you want to marry anywhere else, the priest there is supposed to clear it with your home parish.

CeilingFly

in Ireland if you have a catholic church wedding you get married "twice" and you sign two wedding documents

1 - The state wedding registry which is the official wedding.

2 - The church registry which is the religious wedding and which has no legal meaning in terms of state laws as far as I know

In las vegas, all weddings unless arranged specifically with a church are state of nevada weddings - which are recognised here the same as every other marraige conducted in the proper rules of wherever you are married.

An example is the most famous "Lourdes" case where groups of religious couples got married in a Catholic church in Lourdes. It was several years later that it was realised that they did not have a town hall wedding in addition to their church wedding and therefore were not officially married in the eyes of the state - there was uproar (all those church goers living in sin!!) and legislation had to be created to rectify this.

"The Marriage Act 1972, made provision for the registration of marriages which had occurred in Lourdes, France
prior to its enactment. This was to resolve the difficulty of a significant group of Irish
citizens who had married in Lourdes over the years, according to the rites and
ceremonies of the Catholic Church but who subsequently found that, because the
local civil procedures had not been observed, these marriages were not registerable
in France. "


So answer to the OP - in the eyes of the catholic church, you were never married.

Peregrinus

CeilingFly wrote: »

in Ireland if you have a catholic church wedding you get married "twice" and you sign two wedding documents

1 - The state wedding registry which is the official wedding.

2 - The church registry which is the religious wedding and which has no legal meaning in terms of state laws as far as I know

This is commonly believed, but it's a mistake.

There's only one wedding, and it's neither the registration by the state nor the registration by the church. It's the actual exchange of promises by the couple before the celebrant. Assuming the couple are free to marry, etc, etc, etc, both the church and the state recognise this as constituting a marriage between the spouses, and each imposes its own registration/documentation requirements around that, but they are both recognising the same marriage. It's important to recognise that you're not married because your marriage has been registered (either by the church or by the state); you're married by the ceremony and, because you are married, both church and state apply various registration requirements. If you fail to send back the registration papers you are still married, though in practice you may have difficulty proving that.

CeilingFly wrote: »

So answer to the OP - in the eyes of the catholic church, you were never married.

The OP may or may not be married in the eyes of the church, but it doesn't depend on whether he registered his first marriage with the Catholic church at the time. It depends, as explained above, on whether he or his first spouse were Catholics at the time of the Las Vegas marriage. If either or both of them were, then the Catholic church will not recognise the Las Vegas marriage. But if neither of them were Catholics, it will.