Cancellation Policies

Sultan_of_Ping

What's your club's cancellation policy?

I think ours will let you cancel pretty much up until your tee time, but twice now I've run up against clubs that seem to have overly restrictive cancellation policies - overly restrictive in my view.

Both situations were broadly the same - I booked as a single to play an open competition. Then the day before seeing no one else had come in on the line I called to cancel to be told in one instance there was a requirement for 48 hours notice and in another there was a requirement for 28 days notice.

In both cases I pointed out that as it was an open I couldn't play and participate in the competition as a single.

In the first instance - the "48 hour club" they said they'd refund if no one else came in, but that would effectively mean going to the course and waiting until the tee time!!

In the second instance - the 28 day club - they offered to let me play the course anyway but I pointed out that my purpose in booking the competition was to play in the competition not just play the course. Also, I queried how they could have a 28 cancellation period for bookings made within 28 days??

In the former case the matter was resolved to my satisfaction by them allowing me to transfer my booking to another competition and a tee-time more likely to see heavier traffic. They only did this when I pointed out the amount of goodwill they were likely to lose - not to mention future green fees given I'd likely not go back to a course I play about 4 to 6 times per year.

I'm still waiting to hear about the second one.

The abiding feeling I'm left with is that things are getting "boomier" in the world of golf!

slave1

28 days is a joke.

48hrs seems okay if clear when making the booking but as you have said if there is no second to sign your card then I think you're fair enough to cancel, especially if you are traveling a distance to the course

mighty magpie

My club is pay on the day.
I've played scratch cups, opens and have a 3 day links challenge coming up. Only time i was asked to pay in advance was for portstewart scratch cup where i wasn't going to miss it and was sure of having a playing partner or 2.

The only other time i have been asked to pay in advance was for an open in ballyliffin which didn't materialise. I would never pay if it was just me but would happily pay if a few reliable buddies had said they would go.

Irishdaywalker

Most clubs would give a 24 hour notice period - but usually if you had to cancel they would just refund the money. In my club for members competitions' we are given up to 8pm the night before a competition to cancel. Every member is aware and if you cancel after the 8pm deadline the money is taken out of your account. It's fair enough . . everyone member the rules. 
28 Days Cancellation . . That is Ridiculous ! That club has notions !

morrga

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

The abiding feeling I'm left with is that things are getting "boomier" in the world of golf!

I bought a voucher last year for a steak and golf at a premium course. Used it last Friday and was told as green fees have increased since last year there was no steak dinner now included with the voucher despite the deal noted on the voucher.

Things are getting boomier alright and for the worse. Golf clubs have very short memories.

Irishdaywalker

Crazy . . . ! ! same with all the special promotions you see online with groupon, pigsback etc. . stay well away from them ! Courses usually just use them to get quick revenue into the club and don't care for the players on the day !! Sorry OP off topic.

theyoungchap

Things definitely getting boomier - clubs now looking for hello money again. Eh, hello and goodbye for me.
They have very short memories, but sure Irish people have them themselves looking at what is going on in general in our economy!

In a clubs defence, I think they shouldn't expect you to turn up if you are still on your own, but if there is somebody else I'd say it is fair enough inside 24 hours to say you lose your money.

Sultan_of_Ping

A very quick and unscientific survey of some of the clubs advertising opens through BRS suggests 48hrs is the most frequent policy.

There are some who require 7 days, and one or two that won't give you a refund but will give you a voucher.

Some will give a partial refund if you cancel within 7 days or 48 hours of the tee time (typically 50% refund).

If there is a correlation, it's a loose one between price and policy - the higher the price being charged the more likely the club is running a stricter cancellation policy. It seems to me that some of the more "prestigious" clubs are saying "screw you, we got your money and we don't care whether you come back or not."

Anyway, lesson learned. As a single, I'll leave booking opens until the last minute to make sure I'm in a group and not going to fall foul of cancellation policies.

Sultan_of_Ping

theyoungchap wrote: »

....

In a clubs defence, I think they shouldn't expect you to turn up if you are still on your own, but if there is somebody else I'd say it is fair enough inside 24 hours to say you lose your money.

Absolutely - if you're baling and leaving someone on their own then you should definitely endure the strict enforcement of any cancellation policy!

With respect to both the clubs that prompted this thread, I pointed out to them that I like playing opens (I find a bit of competition sharpens my performance) and I wouldn't see it as being very enjoyable plodding around a course on my own, especially in the case of the second one as I'd never played it before.

Dbu

morrga wrote: »

I bought a voucher last year for a steak and golf at a premium course. Used it last Friday and was told as green fees have increased since last year there was no steak dinner now included with the voucher despite the deal noted on the voucher.

Things are getting boomier alright and for the worse. Golf clubs have very short memories.

I would give them a 1 star in their google reviews, appalling

slave1

I wonder how these bookings are impacted by the EU distance regulations of being able to cancel within 14 days of purchase?

Sultan_of_Ping

slave1 wrote: »

I wonder how these bookings are impacted by the EU distance regulations of being able to cancel within 14 days of purchase?

Checked with the CCPC and the short answer is the bookings likely are not affected as one exemption in the legislation relates to leisure activities for a set period of performance.

Hoooooooooowever, I contracted to play in a competition, not just to play a round of golf, so if th club is unable fulfill its end of the contract then a refund may be due.

Hopefully, a bit of common sense will prevail and they'll just issue the refund.

theyoungchap

Dbu wrote: »

I would give them a 1 star in their google reviews, appalling

I'd go straight to the top, straight on to Joe Duffy.........cut out the middle men

GreeBo

9pm the night before in our place.
After that it gets auto-deducted from your BRS purse unless you can cancel via the Pro Shop at which case its at their discretion.

We dont really do full opens so not sure about the policy for them.

theyoungchap

The funny thing is, golf clubs will need to change and adapt to the future.

Young people (teenagers, young men, etc) are not playing golf. They aren't bothered with spending 4 hours every week and time at the driving range, etc to play golf, and the cost is prohibitive as well.

I think in another generation, if not sooner, golf will be far more affordable than it currently is. That will soften the cough of a lot of golf clubs. Particularly those with a snooty stiff upper lip clientelle at present.....

GreeBo

theyoungchap wrote: »

The funny thing is, golf clubs will need to change and adapt to the future.

Young people (teenagers, young men, etc) are not playing golf. They aren't bothered with spending 4 hours every week and time at the driving range, etc to play golf, and the cost is prohibitive as well.

I think in another generation, if not sooner, golf will be far more affordable than it currently is. That will soften the cough of a lot of golf clubs. Particularly those with a snooty stiff upper lip clientelle at present.....

Its already far, far cheaper than it was only 10 years ago, nevermind a generation ago.
I'm not sure how much cheaper it can get and still offer 18 holes.

Only so much light in the day.

Ollieboy

theyoungchap wrote: »

The funny thing is, golf clubs will need to change and adapt to the future.

Young people (teenagers, young men, etc) are not playing golf. They aren't bothered with spending 4 hours every week and time at the driving range, etc to play golf, and the cost is prohibitive as well.

I think in another generation, if not sooner, golf will be far more affordable than it currently is. That will soften the cough of a lot of golf clubs. Particularly those with a snooty stiff upper lip clientelle at present.....

How? Do you have Any idea of the cost to run a golf club! It’s not cheap and any club with a 1000 active members will have a huge problem with the time sheet. Golf can be cheap if you have a large membership not active or over usage of the course.

If anything it’s going to get more expensive. Don’t be fool by the current climate, golf clubs have had the same model for 125 years, the only issue in the current climate is too many golf clubs, but each club still costs x to run. In the next 5 to 10 years a lot of clubs will disappear for housing and the old model will be fine.

What you have at the moment is 50% of people playing are not really committed to golf and they will probably leave the game when there is less clubs around and lack of cheap green fees. But the other 50% will gladly pay fees yearly and entrance fees will be standard which gets you access to a asset worth a lot in any market.

I believe we let you cancel all the way up to the tee time but to be honest, we don’t get many cancellations.

Seve OB

Back on topic.
OP i think you may have learnt a lesson, don't ever pay up front for opens. I always just ring and pay on the day.
As for the behaviour of both clubs, they really are taking the piss. An open comp and no oposition 24 hours out, you should be well entitled to cancel, or they should try and rearrange to get you out on another line.
Bad form

Sultan_of_Ping

Seve OB wrote: »

Back on topic.
OP i think you may have learnt a lesson, don't ever pay up front for opens. I always just ring and pay on the day.
As for the behaviour of both clubs, they really are taking the piss. An open comp and no oposition 24 hours out, you should be well entitled to cancel, or they should try and rearrange to get you out on another line.
Bad form

Yes, definitely lesson learned.

I think 48 hrs is perfectly reasonably for cancellation but even at 24 hours notice you should be able to cancel if no one has come on to the sheet to play with you.

Still arguing with club #2 about a refund. Having been given notice that I was cancelling they left my name up on the sheet and someone then put themselves down. Problem being having given them notice I was cancelling I re-arranged work to give me an early finish (seen as I wasn't going to be playing golf).

Will I play the course in future? Yes, definitely but only once - because it's a "bucket list" course, but I'd only play it to play it, - it's not a place I'd be going back to after this, nor is it a place I'll be speaking too fondly off in future.

There are plenty of other courses out there who regard the visiting player with a bit more regard - not just as a pocket to be picked.

theyoungchap

Ollieboy wrote: »

How? Do you have Any idea of the cost to run a golf club! It’s not cheap and any club with a 1000 active members will have a huge problem with the time sheet. Golf can be cheap if you have a large membership not active or over usage of the course.

If anything it’s going to get more expensive. Don’t be fool by the current climate, golf clubs have had the same model for 125 years, the only issue in the current climate is too many golf clubs, but each club still costs x to run. In the next 5 to 10 years a lot of clubs will disappear for housing and the old model will be fine.

What you have at the moment is 50% of people playing are not really committed to golf and they will probably leave the game when there is less clubs around and lack of cheap green fees. But the other 50% will gladly pay fees yearly and entrance fees will be standard which gets you access to a asset worth a lot in any market.

I believe we let you cancel all the way up to the tee time but to be honest, we don’t get many cancellations.

If half the clubs and half the people drop away, you don't have any more or less than you currently have.

Because something has worked for 125 years, doesn't mean it will continue to do so - traditional banking/hotels/etc has worked for a long time and is now being "disrupted".

I don't think people will continue to pay entry fees, etc and certainly not young people. A lot of clubs will disappear - only if they are located where land for housing is scarce, so basically inside the M50 or surrounding area.

GreeBo

theyoungchap wrote: »

If half the clubs and half the people drop away, you don't have any more or less than you currently have.

Because something has worked for 125 years, doesn't mean it will continue to do so - traditional banking/hotels/etc has worked for a long time and is now being "disrupted".

I don't think people will continue to pay entry fees, etc and certainly not young people. A lot of clubs will disappear - only if they are located where land for housing is scarce, so basically inside the M50 or surrounding area.

If people stop paying entrance fees then they soon wont have anywhere to play.

This may be because:

1) Nearby clubs close down
2) Nearby clubs are too busy
3) Nearby clubs are too poor quality

Sultan_of_Ping

theyoungchap wrote: »

If half the clubs and half the people drop away, you don't have any more or less than you currently have.

Because something has worked for 125 years, doesn't mean it will continue to do so - traditional banking/hotels/etc has worked for a long time and is now being "disrupted".

I don't think people will continue to pay entry fees, etc and certainly not young people. A lot of clubs will disappear - only if they are located where land for housing is scarce, so basically inside the M50 or surrounding area.

A lot of clubs are changing their approach. For example, my place has a membership fee structure in place whereby if you join as junior before you're 18, your membership only increases incrementally after that age and I think you don't go on to the full whack until you're about 35!

Anyway, by way of update on the post that started this thread.......club #2 (with the 28 cancellation policy) have decided to give me a refund after a bit of prodding.

Lessons learned......
1. Check cancellation policy before booking
2. Unless it's a popular competition, like a scratch cup, book late!

Ollieboy

theyoungchap wrote: »

If half the clubs and half the people drop away, you don't have any more or less than you currently have.

Because something has worked for 125 years, doesn't mean it will continue to do so - traditional banking/hotels/etc has worked for a long time and is now being "disrupted".

I don't think people will continue to pay entry fees, etc and certainly not young people. A lot of clubs will disappear - only if they are located where land for housing is scarce, so basically inside the M50 or surrounding area.

hotels and banks still have the same business models all the way back to the time of our lord. Yes, we book them in different ways but at the end of the day it’s renting rooms and providing loans. Today they actually charge more then ever to all people but especially young people who can’t and don’t value money.

Do you understand what a entrance fee actually is, because your comments clearly indicate you don’t.

There is a certain club in Dublin with a massive waiting list and they have a big entrance fee and I can guarantee you it’s nothing to do with golf and fair play to the members who will each receive 6 figure some along with a new club. Only a fool wouldn’t pay it and join and there is a few clubs in the same situation. But now I know young people won’t pay entrance fees, then all the more wealth for the grey population.

theyoungchap

Ollieboy wrote: »

hotels and banks still have the same business models all the way back to the time of our lord. Yes, we book them in different ways but at the end of the day it’s renting rooms and providing loans. Today they actually charge more then ever to all people but especially young people who can’t and don’t value money.

Do you understand what a entrance fee actually is, because your comments clearly indicate you don’t.

There is a certain club in Dublin with a massive waiting list and they have a big entrance fee and I can guarantee you it’s nothing to do with golf and fair play to the members who will each receive 6 figure some along with a new club. Only a fool wouldn’t pay it and join and there is a few clubs in the same situation. But now I know young people won’t pay entrance fees, then all the more wealth for the grey population.

Who says young people don't value money. I am a young person and value it very much. Loads of clubs offering under 35 memberships, etc. But do enlighten me - why would "only a fool" not pay to join a golf club looking for an entrance fee?

Also I hope your justification has more to it than 1 club in Dublin with a massive waiting list?

Ollieboy

theyoungchap wrote: »

Who says young people don't value money. I am a young person and value it very much. Loads of clubs offering under 35 memberships, etc. But do enlighten me - why would "only a fool" not pay to join a golf club looking for an entrance fee?

Also I hope your justification has more to it than 1 club in Dublin with a massive waiting list?

There is two types of entrance fees.

1. Hello money.
2. buying a share in a clubs assets, members club.

The first usually involves getting playing rights at a golf course that is ran by a company or an individual for a profit. If you pay a entrance fee here it’s usually to cover capital investment or profit.

The latter is ran by the members and owned by the members. When they sell they get the proceeds of that sale as owners. So it’s the same idea of you buying shares in Apple or investing in a business.

During the last property boom lots of people join clubs because of this reason, ie an investment in land that didn’t cost that much. This is the main reason for over supply of golf courses.

So one club I know off as an example but most clubs are members own, each member is looking at a win fall off 130k for there original entrance fee plus a new club.

So when you join a club and pay a entrance fee, you actually buy some of the asset wealth of that club and usually at a very big discount. That original capital investment in setting up the club is clawed back in these entrance fees and used for future capital investment. Without entrance fees, clubs will not be able to rebuild clubhouse or facilities, so entrance fees will definitely reappear.

Subs, are just to cover running costs in that current year and members clubs try to always break even and you get a vote and say in the running of the club and business and can even run it yourself if elected.

Also these under offers will disappear once clubs get near full membership again.

As for young people having value on money, let’s just say Starbucks wouldn’t have survived in my day.

GreeBo

I disagree that lots of people joined clubs as a financial investment!

The rest I do, especially the disposable income of young people today versus on the past. 1980s anyone?!

Ollieboy

GreeBo wrote: »

I disagree that lots of people joined clubs as a financial investment!

The rest I do, especially the disposable income of young people today versus on the past. 1980s anyone?!

Would you believe we had 300 members that join and never played and paid subs each year, crazy stuff but this was the boom and I don’t mean today. But I know 2 guys that have membership in two clubs and they both reckon they will get money out of it and I would agree, just don’t know if it’s profitable at today’s prices.

Some of that 300 might have been bankers etc who got it as a benefit.

If I was involved with the GUI I would lobby the government to let’s subs paid by employers tax free, that alone would solve most clubs membership issues.

GreeBo

Ollieboy wrote: »

Would you believe we had 300 members that join and never played and paid subs each year, crazy stuff but this was the boom and I don’t mean today. But I know 2 guys that have membership in two clubs and they both reckon they will get money out of it and I would agree, just don’t know if it’s profitable at today’s prices.

Some of that 300 might have been bankers etc who got it as a benefit.

If I was involved with the GUI I would lobby the government to let’s subs paid by employers tax free, that alone would solve most clubs membership issues.

Just because they paid and didn't play doesn't mean they were investors.
Plenty of people joined for prestige reasons.

I'd say the numbers who are investors are a tiny, tiny percentage.

Sure how many clubs have actually been bought out? Dun Laoghaire is all I can think of.

theyoungchap

GreeBo wrote: »

Just because they paid and didn't play doesn't mean they were investors.
Plenty of people joined for prestige reasons.

I'd say the numbers who are investors are a tiny, tiny percentage.

Sure how many clubs have actually been bought out? Dun Laoghaire is all I can think of.

I was about to say I can think of one club.....you are also relying on the club being sold for development during the lifetime of your membership. Not a guarantee.

I think you'd be better off putting the money on the 3.15 in Leopardstown tomorrow.....

Ollieboy

theyoungchap wrote: »

I was about to say I can think of one club.....you are also relying on the club being sold for development during the lifetime of your membership. Not a guarantee.

I think you'd be better off putting the money on the 3.15 in Leopardstown tomorrow.....

Your missing the point, I was trying to explain to you what entrance fees are used for by clubs and why it is not a waste of money. If you joined a club, you never want to see it developed so hopefully the situation will never arise and joining a club is never about a investment but if you were to get lucky during your membership then it might pay off. If your a member of a club for a long time the entrance fee is mean less over that time period. There is also other advantages like retention of members.

There is also a disadvantage, if the club goes bust you can be liable, but this as never happened due to the cost involved in trying to get money from so many different individuals.

At the moment two clubs outside the M50 have agreed to development and 2 others outside m50and 1 inside would have offers on the table. I’m very sure if other clubs entered the market they would get offers easily. 2 own by companies, 2 by members and 1 by banks out of that 5.

At the end of the last boom there was a lot of clubs with offers on the table but members will always be very reluctant to accepted them. But I feel it might be different this time around!

But the point is the entrance fees are part of the business model for golf clubs. Clubs can not be run forever on shoestring incomes that they are currently making but maybe this is the wrong place to discuss it.