Another VRT query. German reg - in ROI for years.

hometruths

Hi, did a search for this but cannot find details and hopefully someone here has experience.

I am looking at German reg'd car that has been here for guts of 10 years.

Although I would obviously make 100% sure German paperwork all in order and get receipt with date of sale, I am wondering if I will run into problems with VRT?

Obviously I won't have any proof eg ferry ticket that I brought it into the state on such and such a date.

Can anyone advise?

Cee-Jay-Cee

If you didn't bring it into the state then that's not your concern. You need a receipt from the seller stating that they sold you the car on xxx date for xxxx amount and that they brought the car to Ireland in XXXX (year) and that should cover everything that the NCT need (so long as you have the registration paperwork for the car too obviously)

hometruths

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If you didn't bring it into the state then that's not your concern. You need a receipt from the seller stating that they sold you the car on xxx date for xxxx amount and that they brought the car to Ireland in XXXX (year) and that should cover everything that the NCT need (so long as you have the registration paperwork for the car too obviously)

Great that it is not my concern, but if present it for VRT, will it be revenues concern? i.e will they be looking for somebody to pay it before they'll issue an Irish number?

Foxhole Norman

Yes you will get caught for late fees on the car, currently happening to my buddy who brought in a car from NI without a headed invoice from a VAT registered company. They take the date of last taxation in the country and apply late fees from there.

hometruths

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Yes you will get caught for late fees on the car, currently happening to my buddy who brought in a car from NI without a headed invoice from a VAT registered company. They take the date of last taxation in the country and apply late fees from there.

Good to know, thanks.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Yes you will get caught for late fees on the car, currently happening to my buddy who brought in a car from NI without a headed invoice from a VAT registered company. They take the date of last taxation in the country and apply late fees from there.

That is not the same thing as the OP's question. He did not bring the car into the state and if he gets a letter from the seller stating that they took the car in on whatever date then he is not liable for late fee's. In your case your friend took the car in himself and delayed in getting it cleared, it is not the same thing as the OP's query.

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Yes you will get caught for late fees on the car, currently happening to my buddy who brought in a car from NI without a headed invoice from a VAT registered company. They take the date of last taxation in the country and apply late fees from there.

Ring VRT enquiries and ask what happens in scenarios like yours then you will have a clear answer before buying the car.

Foxhole Norman

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That is not the same thing as the OP's question. He did not bring the car into the state and if he gets a letter from the seller stating that they took the car in on whatever date then he is not liable for late fee's. In your case your friend took the car in himself and delayed in getting it cleared, it is not the same thing as the OP's query.



Ring VRT enquiries and ask what happens in scenarios like yours then you will have a clear answer before buying the car.

No he did not delay, he brought it in, immediately booked an appointment, got one within 7 days and that's what they told him, I was with him for the procedure, car is only in the country a month, since he bought it. Even with an invoice from the seller with date, price etc they wouldn't accept it.

Unless the seller is a Vat registered dealer he'll more than likely be caught for the late fees.

slave1

That sounds so wrong, you do not need a VAT invoice, a simple piece of paper stating purchase price, dated and signed by previous owner is perfectly fine.
Previous owner name will be on the car paperwork, nod nod ;)

Foxhole Norman

slave1 wrote: »

That sounds so wrong, you do not need a VAT invoice, a simple piece of paper stating purchase price, dated and signed by previous owner is perfectly fine.
Previous owner name will be on the car paperwork, nod nod ;)

It's about proof of import into the country, nothing more. My buddy bought his car private, up North so had no Ferry ticket to prove he went over and bought a car and came back into the country on a certain date, even with the invoice from the seller he still has to pay 2.5 years "late fees" due to not having proof of import as the last tax of the car was 2.5 years ago in the UK. Yes it makes no sense but that's the way it is unfortunately.

An invoice from a VAT registered dealer is proof to them instead that you bought it on a certain date.

hometruths

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

It's about proof of import into the country, nothing more.

That was the nub of my original question. I think in my case it is too risky to buy this car.

Marcusm

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

If you didn't bring it into the state then that's not your concern. You need a receipt from the seller stating that they sold you the car on xxx date for xxxx amount and that they brought the car to Ireland in XXXX (year) and that should cover everything that the NCT need (so long as you have the registration paperwork for the car too obviously)

The VRT was triggered at the point of entry and if the OP shows this date then that is what will be required to be paid - at the value 10 years ago plus penalties. It would be mad to spend money on such a car.

Sleeper12

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote:

Ring VRT enquiries and ask what happens in scenarios like yours then you will have a clear answer before buying the car.

Great answer.

I'd be concerned that the vrt valuation might be from the date it was imported rather than todays value

BHP

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Great answer.

I'd be concerned that the vrt valuation might be from the date it was imported rather than todays value

VRT is calculated frrom the vehicles date of entry into the state.

CiniO

OP - very easy solution.

Ask the seller to make the transaction abroad (easiest would be in Northern Ireland).
You just go there. He gives you the car. You give him cash. You sign a receipt/contract of sale and all sorted.
You then import the car to Ireland and VRT it.
You give your importation date to VRT office.

Whether that car was used in Ireland before hand or not, won't be your concern.

Jimmy Dags

How will doing a sale in a Lidl car park up the north work Cinio?

CiniO

Jimmy Dags wrote: »

How will doing a sale in a Lidl car park up the north work Cinio?

Why wouldn't it?

From OP's point of view - he is buying a foreign registered car from foreign person in foreign country. All above board.
After purchase he brings car to Ireland and books it for VRT.

Whether car has been used in Ireland before or not, is totally none of OP's concern. He doesn't even need to know about it.


However if you decides to buy this car in Ireland, then situation looks different, as technically person selling it can't do it legally without VRTing first. So OP buying that car in Ireland, makes himself liable for late VRT charges/penalites due to fact that car was in Ireland already for a while (in that particular case 10 years).
When buying abroad this problem doesn't exist.

Foxhole Norman

Cinio, that's not how it works, if it's a private sale and you don't have something like a ferry ticket to prove you were in the UK/Foreign State to buy it(not possible for NI realistically) then they will apply late fees from last date of tax, in this case, years ago possibly. My buddy is going through this exact situation and I went through it myself this time last year.

Jimmy Dags

+1 Cinio why take it to the north? Your post is waffle.

hometruths

Cinio, I thought about this - the big problem is can't get proof of date imported, other than a fuel receipt or whatever. If it was an NI reg car then might be more tempted to take that risk.

But it is German reg, untaxed in Germany for nearly 10 years, with no proof of when it arrived here.

Started thread because worried that I could rock up for VRT inspection and they would say hang on a second, with no proof of date of import, you're screwed! A couple of the replies on here have suggested that maybe the case.

CiniO

Foxhole Norman wrote: »

Cinio, that's not how it works, if it's a private sale and you don't have something like a ferry ticket to prove you were in the UK/Foreign State to buy it(not possible for NI realistically) then they will apply late fees from last date of tax, in this case, years ago possibly. My buddy is going through this exact situation and I went through it myself this time last year.

Even if some vrt offices are indeed doing it for uk/ni registered cars (basing date of export on last tax) - which sounds totally daft idea which should be easily challenged in court against vrt office if someone tries - please explain me how could they possibly do it with car imported from different country (in this example germany). I can see no way.

CiniO

schmittel wrote: »

Cinio, I thought about this - the big problem is can't get proof of date imported, other than a fuel receipt or whatever. If it was an NI reg car then might be more tempted to take that risk.

But it is German reg, untaxed in Germany for nearly 10 years, with no proof of when it arrived here.

Started thread because worried that I could rock up for VRT inspection and they would say hang on a second, with no proof of date of import, you're screwed! A couple of the replies on here have suggested that maybe the case.

IMO a contract of sale with private person signed in NI should be all vrt centre should require. I can't think of any reason why would they were to refuse it.

But in the worst case, you can always do transaction in UK mainland. That will just cost 2 ferry tickets.

aerofoiled

CiniO wrote: »

Even if some vrt offices are indeed doing it for uk/ni registered cars (basing date of export on last tax) - which sounds totally daft idea which should be easily challenged in court against vrt office if someone tries - please explain me how could they possibly do it with car imported from different country (in this example germany). I can see no way.

I'm presuming you're aware that the seller's address must be given on the VRT form. Usually the address on the car's registration document. How would you explain to Revenue how you bought a German import in NI without them wanting other documentary evidence?

Foxhole Norman

CiniO wrote: »

Even if some vrt offices are indeed doing it for uk/ni registered cars (basing date of export on last tax) - which sounds totally daft idea which should be easily challenged in court against vrt office if someone tries - please explain me how could they possibly do it with car imported from different country (in this example germany). I can see no way.

OK, say you bought a car in NI today privately, hasn't been taxed there for 3 years. You do the deal, get a written invoice, V5 etc. Come down here book your appointment and go in to pay. You do not have a ferry ticket receipt for going across to UK or other state to buy a car and no invoice from a VAT registered dealer, they have no option but to take entry to the state as last tax date as how do they know you didn't just write up the invoice yourself and the car has been here for years? So basically if you bought privately, you're going to pay from last tax date unless you have a ferry ticket, if you bought off a dealer you'll have a headed invoice from a VAT Registered dealer proving you bought it on a specific date.

This happened to me and currently to my buddy. I was lucky mine was recently taxed so fees weren't as bad but my buddy is paying 2.5 years late fees.

Yes it's a bit unfair but it's the way.

derossi

Hypothetically speaking, I bought a UK car last year that has been in the south for a few years off of someone. I insured it and between the month allowed I was stopped at a customs checkpoint, showed them that the car was only recently inured, was able to show them my previous insurance that led up to that insurance. I told them I bought the car in the south. They said well you can't really do that but that is not your/my concern and let me go. For VRT purposes I had the v5 which had a date a few years back, typed up and printed an invoice showing the hypothetical date of purchase and it was vrt'd without any issues.

Foxhole Norman

Not always the way unfortunately, you were lucky to not get charged given that it was a private sale.

Cee-Jay-Cee

A possible theoretical solution would be to get the seller to provide a receipt showing an address in Northern Ireland and stating that the car was sold on xxx date for £xxx then the arrival of the car in the state is no longer an issue.

hometruths

Thanks to everyone for their input, and thinking about all of the above suggestions and theoretical solutions re NI sale etc, I believe it is just not worth the risk.

I have no doubt that the NI plan might work if I got lucky on the day, with the right inspector etc, but if I got the wrong one I'd be rightly screwed!

It's just not worth the risk to buy the car, and hope I get lucky!

5500

Something seems to have changed recently with regard to invoices being accepted, previously they seemed happy for you to write your own at the desk in the nct centre, but as foxhole has mentioned with his friend, I saw the exact same thing happening 2 weeks ago whilst vrting a car myself.

The guy had a northern car with a hand written receipt from a private individual, lady told him it wasn't accepted as date of entry into the state and it would be sent onto revenue, so I'd be very cautious with a car that may have been here years as revenue seem to be tightening things up.

Foxhole Norman

5500 wrote: »

Something seems to have changed recently with regard to invoices being accepted, previously they seemed happy for you to write your own at the desk in the nct centre, but as foxhole has mentioned with his friend, I saw the exact same thing happening 2 weeks ago whilst vrting a car myself.

The guy had a northern car with a hand written receipt from a private individual, lady told him it wasn't accepted as date of entry into the state and it would be sent onto revenue, so I'd be very cautious with a car that may have been here years as revenue seem to be tightening things up.

This. When it comes to private sales a hand written invoice counts for nought. The woman at the desk just had me write one on the spot :pac:

The proof they need is flight/ferry tickets if private or invoice from vat registered dealer if its a dealer bought vehicle.

Marcusm

schmittel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for their input, and thinking about all of the above suggestions and theoretical solutions re NI sale etc, I believe it is just not worth the risk.

I have no doubt that the NI plan might work if I got lucky on the day, with the right inspector etc, but if I got the wrong one I'd be rightly screwed!

It's just not worth the risk to buy the car, and hope I get lucky!

You also have no idea whether, at any time since 1993, whether there has been an attemp to register it. Say in 2000 they went to (then local tax office) to register the car but withdrew when given the VRT price. That record would be v unhelpful for you.

dr.fuzzenstein

Speaking from my own experience (and I'm a little hazy on the details, it's a long time ago) I had a German car in Ireland for a few years and was finally stopped by customs and asked to register the car.
Since the car been "officially" in use in Germany for a few years already, I could import it as my own vehicle and because of this being my car that I imported for my own use, I did not have to pay VRT.
Could the owner of the car not do the same and get the car registered here for free?
I did and after finding out that insuring a 15 year old left hand drive, commercial VW van was an absolute no-no in Ireland, I immediately sold it on.
There were zero problems, but maybe today customs and the VRT office check this stuff a little more thoroughly.
This to my mind is the easiest way of doing it.

hometruths

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Speaking from my own experience (and I'm a little hazy on the details, it's a long time ago) I had a German car in Ireland for a few years and was finally stopped by customs and asked to register the car.
Since the car been "officially" in use in Germany for a few years already, I could import it as my own vehicle and because of this being my car that I imported for my own use, I did not have to pay VRT.
Could the owner of the car not do the same and get the car registered here for free?
I did and after finding out that insuring a 15 year old left hand drive, commercial VW van was an absolute no-no in Ireland, I immediately sold it on.
There were zero problems, but maybe today customs and the VRT office check this stuff a little more thoroughly.
This to my mind is the easiest way of doing it.

Yep, going to explore this with vendor but I suspect if he was in a position to do this he'd have done it already.

dr.fuzzenstein

Any news on the car?

Cee-Jay-Cee

schmittel wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for their input, and thinking about all of the above suggestions and theoretical solutions re NI sale etc, I believe it is just not worth the risk.

I have no doubt that the NI plan might work if I got lucky on the day, with the right inspector etc, but if I got the wrong one I'd be rightly screwed!

It's just not worth the risk to buy the car, and hope I get lucky!

VRT don't really care when the car came in, so long as you have a receipt then they have something to show the date of entry to the state and that's all they care about. When I was VRTing my wifes car, I lost the genuine receipt I got from the dealer in Northern Ireland. I obviously dropped it somewhere and when I presented all the documents at the VRT office, I was told I'd need a receipt. I told the girl that I had one but obviously had lost it somewhere along the line as I had it the previous night when checking everything. She gave me a blank piece of paper and told me to write out a receipt showing sellers name, car reg details, price and date of sale. I wrote out the receipt, handed it back, job done.

Get the seller to buy the cheapest ferry ticket from the UK to Ireland and give it to you as proof of entry, job done.

hometruths

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Any news on the car?

Seller gone a bit quiet, he said he had a lot of work on and was going to get back to me. Going to chase him up this weekend.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Keaton Plump Toothpick wrote: »

Get the seller to buy the cheapest ferry ticket from the UK to Ireland and give it to you as proof of entry, job done.

I know someone who done that for a car that they had for quite a while and it worked. They paid €120 for the ticket but saved a considerable bit more by doing so.