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Rolling Road test (power, torque etc)

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  • 21-05-2018 1:12pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 14


    Hello All,

    I bought a second-hand Auris Hybrid touring, it's a 2016 model, and I have the feeling that the engine is underpowered.

    So I contacted a few places where they do a 'rolling road' test, but they all failed, apparently because the hybrid engine is somehow limiting the speed unless the car is on a 'real' road.

    I wonder if anybody else had the same experience, and if you found a way either through Toyota or others to 'configure' the car do do this kind of tests.

    Many thanks

    -m


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    matiab wrote: »
    Hello All,

    I bought a second-hand Auris Hybrid touring, it's a 2016 model, and I have the feeling that the engine is underpowered.


    -m

    Well.. the engine is underpowered :D

    The hybrid system feels very unusual compared to anything you were probably used to before.

    Make sure you arent driving in eco mode. Put the car into sports/power mode for a while... it will help you get used to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thank you for the response.

    I am driving in non-eco mode for now and also trying the power mode too.
    My original impression started on motorway driving (long trip) where I felt the engine was really striving to keep the speed, even on almost plain roads, and never more than 120kmh.

    I really wish to put my mind at ease with a power test where I can see what's the true bhp of this car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    matiab wrote: »
    Thank you for the response.

    I am driving in non-eco mode for now and also trying the power mode too.
    My original impression started on motorway driving (long trip) where I felt the engine was really striving to keep the speed, even on almost plain roads, and never more than 120kmh.

    I really wish to put my mind at ease with a power test where I can see what's the true bhp of this car.

    Motorway is not really where the hybrid system excels and the engine will rev shift as it feels like to maintain power/speed - this is especially true on inclines where it will sound like the engine is doing approx 1 million rpm.

    What sort of economy is the car reporting at the end of a motorway trip? Should be in the 5-6l/100km range. Also if you have cruise control this will make motorway journeys a lot more pleasant.

    The simplest thing would be to go to your local toyota dealer with your concerns and drive their test drive car as they will have one the same as yours (possibly the hatch rather than the estate depending on the dealer). As you will still be under warranty now is the time to check it out fully.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thank you again,

    Yes that's exactly the impression I got. I have cruise control and set at around 120kmh on UK motorways, sometimes the engine really seemed to go crazy. When I get to France (I drive almost regularly from Ireland to Italy going through UK and France), and approaching the mountain area, even setting it to 100kmh makes the engine rev a lot.

    If I'm not wrong, this car should have 136hp, and having driven a BMW 525 previously seemed a lot 'easier' on the engine under the same conditions. But I also understand the engine was bigger, more cylinders, so can't really compare too much.

    About the economy, again using cruise control all the way, I got around 19-20km/l in the UK, but around 15km/l in France.

    The rolling road test was suggested by my Toyota dealer (longmile) but given that seems impossible, I will ask them to do a test drive car like you suggested.

    During one of the services recently with them, I got a hybrid ch-r as a courtesy car, and being that car supposedly heavier than mine, the engine felt a lot more responsive and prompt. But maybe I'm comparing apples to bananas here..

    Also, on top of that, my car has a tow bar, which made my concerns a bit worse not knowing what it was pulling in the year before I got it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    matiab wrote: »
    Thank you again,

    Yes that's exactly the impression I got. I have cruise control and set at around 120kmh on UK motorways, sometimes the engine really seemed to go crazy. When I get to France (I drive almost regularly from Ireland to Italy going through UK and France), and approaching the mountain area, even setting it to 100kmh makes the engine rev a lot.

    If I'm not wrong, this car should have 136hp, and having driven a BMW 525 previously seemed a lot 'easier' on the engine under the same conditions. But I also understand the engine was bigger, more cylinders, so can't really compare too much.

    About the economy, again using cruise control all the way, I got around 19-20km/l in the UK, but around 15km/l in France.

    The rolling road test was suggested by my Toyota dealer (longmile) but given that seems impossible, I will ask them to do a test drive car like you suggested.

    During one of the services recently with them, I got a hybrid ch-r as a courtesy car, and being that car supposedly heavier than mine, the engine felt a lot more responsive and prompt. But maybe I'm comparing apples to bananas here..

    Also, on top of that, my car has a tow bar, which made my concerns a bit worse not knowing what it was pulling in the year before I got it.

    That all sounds about right to me - except the towbar. That generation was not rated for towing and the manual should explicitly tell you not do that!

    Its not fair to compare the CHR and auris as it's a different engine and different gearbox. The new generation engine (prius and chr) makes more and better use of the electric component which appears to have been beefed up a bit. Despite being a bigger car with (presumably) poorer aerodynamics my CHR is returning approx 1l/100km better than my auris did. I doubt the CHR is any heavier than an Auris estate btw.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thank you

    I've actually downloaded the user manual of the car and, unless I got the wrong one, it seems tow bar is supported, provided the weight being towed responds to certain limits.

    https://carmanuals2.com/d/94196

    I'll probably go ahead and check with Longmile if they can let me drive one of their test cars.

    Again, thanks for the responses!

    -m


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    matiab wrote: »
    Thank you

    I've actually downloaded the user manual of the car and, unless I got the wrong one, it seems tow bar is supported, provided the weight being towed responds to certain limits.



    -m

    The answer appears to depend on if it's a toyota supplied and fitted item.. or not. Pages 205 and 206.

    When the current generation Prius was released they made a decent fuss about it being their first hybrid rated for towing.

    If you have a look at the brochure you will see that towing capacity for the auris hybrid is listed at 0kg.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Oh wow.. would this be something I could inform my dealer about you think?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    update: I told Toyota about the tow bar, and they suggested that it could have been used to mount a bike rack instead of towing a trailer.
    Not sure I want to believe it, but I'm also double checking the manual to see if they could have the same mounting option.
    If so, I will have to try and hope that the previous owner didn't pull anything too heavy with it.

    Anyways, I asked for a test drive with the same model, and hopefully will get that done at least to compare the experience.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭bp_me


    Yes. Towbar mounting of bike racks is fairly common.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    matiab wrote: »
    If I'm not wrong, this car should have 136hp, and having driven a BMW 525 previously

    There is an absolute chasm in terms of power between those two cars. At motorway speed a Prius/Auris (same power train) is being driven by the petrol engine alone. The engine is 98 bhp, which is more typical of a 1.4 litre car.

    I don't see why it shouldn't be possible to dyno yours. There are a few videos of Priuses being done on youtube.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thanks n97,

    Well that's what the engineer told me too. I took it to Westward Eng in Enfield, and I was there the whole time, I could see that he was flooring the pedal but the car never went to full power.

    He told me he doesn't know if there's something wrong or something to program in the computer. I've also told Toyota the same, and they offered to bring the car in to check with their computer and see if there's a way to 'configure' it for this kind of test.

    btw, does anybody know if indeed the computer of the car needs to be configured for a dyno testing?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    matiab wrote: »
    Yes that's exactly the impression I got. I have cruise control and set at around 120kmh on UK motorways, sometimes the engine really seemed to go crazy. When I get to France (I drive almost regularly from Ireland to Italy going through UK and France), and approaching the mountain area, even setting it to 100kmh makes the engine rev a lot.

    I think you just need to get over the weird noises the ICE sometimes makes. As the transmission is continuously variable, there are no fixed ratios like what you were used to, so no specific engine speeds for the road speed you are doing. It's always going to try and run at the most efficient engine speed - and sometimes that engine speed may be over 4500 RPM (like steep ascents). It doesn't necessarily mean it's lacking power, and it's not dangerous in any way. Peak power is at 5200 RPM, which is not unusual at all for a petrol engine. You also need to consider that it's because it's so quiet at other times that any sort of noise from the engine is much more noticeable than a traditional ICE car.

    I assume you're in D and not B? There are some misconceptions around what B does, but it's mainly for engine braking so will increase ICE speed in most situations, and not really help with fuel economy.
    n97 mini wrote:
    At motorway speed a Prius/Auris (same power train) is being driven by the petrol engine alone.
    Not true at all - why do people keep saying this? MG2 will provide power at any speed when required. With an OBD-II scanner and some app like Hybrid Assistant you can see what the MGs are really doing.

    I suspect the rolling road doesn't work because the traction control is killing power as it detects no movement in the rear wheels. I think there are some incantations you can do to disable the traction control, but it's not designed to be driven at all in this state so I'd say it's definitely not safe to use for performance testing (and may invalidate your warranty).

    The traction control shouldn't stop you from testing the 0-100 km/h time, or any other timed test that can be performed on a (private ;) ) road. Don't be afraid of flooring it either :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thanks Zilog,

    I think you're right, it's definitely a matter of getting used to the noise the engine makes, and the fact that it's a relatively 'smaller' engine to what I was used to. Thanks for reassuring me :)

    And yes, I'm always in D when on the motorway. Actually I'm pretty much always in D unless on a (slow) downhill. Tried to use B on a motorway downhill and got scared by how much the engine was revving :)

    About the rolling road test, we also tried disabling traction control via its button, but it didn't make any change. however, I suspect you're referring to some other way to disable it, maybe through the computer? If I take the car to my Toyota service and they find it with their computer, then it's fine to me, but I would never try and void the warranty.

    Good suggestion on testing the 0-100 time. I'll try and find a private road where to do it. Thank you!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,718 ✭✭✭Matt Simis


    Wouldnt it be easier to go test drive another example of the same car.. either from a dealer or friend and compare?
    Also IMO Toyota's Hybrids aren't performance orientated and punch below their weight in the scenario you describe (motorway speeds and at steep inclines). They do other things well.
    Really don't think its a good idea to tow stuff with that car if you already feel it struggle.

    PS, for ****s and giggles, you mention a BMW 525, but not the year. Assuming the old classic model, the e34:

    E34 525 1990
    Weight 1480kg
    BHP 192 / 250nm 4440rpm torque

    Being German, it would have been geared for comfortable Autobahn speeds which your Auris will not be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Hello Matt,

    Yeah that's also what I'm trying to do. I've asked my dealer if we can arrange a test drive with the same car (they should have one in their showroom). Unfortunately I don't know anyone who has the same car as mine.

    And about my beloved BMW, yes it was a e34 model, 1993, 525tds touring. Loved it to bits but had to give it away since I couldn't afford 1000 euros in motor tax anymore ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Oh, you're moving from a diesel as well - with any petrol you will need to make use of higher revs to get the most out of it. The 525tds had peak torque of 260 Nm @ 2,200 RPM, vs. 142 Nm @ 3,600 RPM with the 2ZR-FXE engine in the Auris (though max torque of the total hybrid system is about 207 Nm).
    Matt Simis wrote: »
    Being German, it would have been geared for comfortable Autobahn speeds which your Auris will not be.

    In my Prius (same drivetrain) it will stay around 1800-2500 RPM at 120 km/h depending on conditions (we don't have a lot of flat motorways around here!), which is quite acceptable IMO. Hell of a lot quieter than an old 5-speed manual diesel at those speeds anyway (though I only have experience with 4-pots). It's when you need more power that the engine speed will quickly go over 3k RPM, e.g. overtaking or steep inclines. I'm not afraid of flooring it when needed, and it will go up to 5,200 RPM fairly easily :) That's still well below the limit, and nothing to be afraid of. I find the responsiveness more than adequate for most driving conditions in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14 matiab


    Thanks Zilog,

    Hopefully I'll be able to see more of what's going on with a OBD device, so I can at least read the RPMs of the engine.
    Also waiting for Toyota to call me and arrange a test drive with the same car, at least to put my mind at ease.
    I guess I just have to slowly get used to how the engine behaves, and it may as well be that there's nothing really wrong with the car :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭knifey_spoonie


    When it comes to Towing, it is possible dependant on a factory fitted towing pack, from what i remember it adds increase cooling for the hybrid battery pack.

    The engine in the hybrid system is not really comparable to most other petrol engines, The car runs an atkinson cycle engine which results in less torque and power than and conventional otto cycle engine but has increase efficiency, the reduced power isn't much of an issue as the electric system boosts the total system power.

    Honestly id be very surprised if there was an issue with the car itself, If there was an issue it would generally show an error light of some sort. Its more likely your not use to the car yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,352 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Just drive another car of same type and you will then know.
    I think comparing it to a 525 BMW is your main issue.


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