Accessing a building site via an "unofficial" route

DBB

Hi folks,
Hopefully someone here can put me straight, one way or t'other!
An infrastructural project has got the go-ahead near where I live. Their site maps include drawings of their access routes to the construction site, which does not include the use of the lane that passes our house. Yet we are somewhat plagued by engineers and various others driving up and down the (quiet, grass-in-the-middle-of-the-lane) lane. There were no site notices erected anywhere near the lane before planning permission was granted... They were all positioned at the "official" access points.
There is a right of way on the lane, and we own the section of lane outside our house. It is not a through-road, and the right of way, as I understand it, was originally set out for people who needed to access a bog at the bottom of the lane, for turf. So, it was never intended as a free for all, as I understand it. I'm not sure how we stand on the right of way end of this, or how the T+Cs for the use of the RoW would stand up to scrutiny today in terms or who or what (horses and carts) are allowed to use it.
Do I have a right to rear up on the engineers and associated people for using an access route that was never mentioned in their planning application?
I hope this isn't considered to be me looking for legal advice, as I'm not (I don't think!), rather I'm wondering if we have any standing in politely asking the engineers etc to use the routes they have planning permission to use, not one they don't!

hullaballoo

Is the lane privately owned and not taken in charge by the council?

If the ROW was established for a specific purpose, then that is the purpose for which it can be used. I don't suppose it was registered?

DBB

Hi Hullabaloo,
It's a privately owned lane, not taken in charge by the council.
Hmmm... I'd have my doubts it was registered, but I just don't know. How would this impact?
I very nicely approached a car load of suits outside my property who were very evasive and started quoting "public right of way" at me... But as I've said it's not, to the best of my knowledge, a free for all. They said they'd permission from the owner of the lane to be there... But there's more than one owner, I'm one of them, and permission was never sought from me!

hullaballoo

They're bluffing all right.

There are a few issues. Firstly, if it's a registered ROW, it's terms and conditions will be available for inspection. So, if it's a ROW for locals to collect turf from the bog, then that's what it can be used for and it doesn't act as a general public right of way.

On the other hand, it may actually be a more general right of way that they are entitled to use but you just don't know until you see the agreed terms from whenever the ROW was established and between whom.

The next thing is whether you can realistically do anything about any infringement there may be. If they decide to be bullish about it, then you are forced into a situation where you either leave them to it or sue them.

One way or another, you'd need to do some further digging to discover the true ownership over the lane and then find out about the ROW. The Land Registry will hold relevant registrations if the land is registered and the ROW too.

DBB

Great stuff Hullabaloo, thanks a million for that
Our ownership of a bit of the lane, and the nature of the RoW is listed on our deeds, but we bought the place after the RoW registration date had passed. The neighbouring farmer owns a lot of the lane... I would be very doubtful that he gave them permission either. He'd also have a lot of historical info which I must ask him about, but thanks to your info I feel I can frame my questions to him somewhat better now.
Thanks, again!

hullaballoo

Sorry, of course another option avails itself in your situation once you have established the facts of ownership/ROW - you can put a bollard at the laneway access point and give a key to each of your neighbours who have legitimate reasons to access the lane. Might be cheaper than a suit of action.

DBB

Not the first time that this has been suggested! There was indeed a gate across the lane outside our house, put thereby the original owner many moons ago when a similar(ish) dispute arose, but the gate rusted away after he died. We found its remains when we moved in with the strimmer!

You moved in with a strimmer! (only joking).

If it's a large enough project, there will have to have been planning permission applied for and granted. Even if it's a council project, there should be rules, regulations and conditions in place. One of those conditions will govern access to/from the site, as well as other traffic related items. It may even have a dedicated traffic management plan as part of the process.

Generally, there may be something along the lines of "machinery can only access the site via XXX" or "all rubble removed from the site must be carried along YYY road" etc. Have a look at the application, find out what the story is and, if they are in breach, report them to the enforcement section of your local planning authority (county council).

Example:

Vehicles will access the road network from the temporary construction material storage yard via the
L4700 onto the N2 before turning north towards Carrickmacross or south towards Ardee, depending on
the destination of the materials being delivered. Construction traffic will then proceed to its destination
via combinations of the local, regional and national road network as detailed in Tables 13.1 to 13.3 of
Volume 3C of........

Click for source

DBB

Thanks $hifty,
It's a major project alright, with a vast tome of submitted paperwork which I need to take time to digest. One thing I'm certain of, and that is that our lane is not listed amongst the access routes. There is a clearly defined access route on the maps, I just need to find the written bit!

Definitely get in touch with Enforcement then. If it's council staff doing the 'trespassing' then they'll be instructed to stop. If it's contractors involved then they won't want to lose the contract. Much easier situation to resolve than, say, a neighbour using your lane or something.

DBB

Sorry, meant to clarify, this is a private job, not the council. I don't have any major objections to the project itself, but I do mind the increased traffic down the quiet boreen, and feel the need to draw a line they won't cross... Jeeps and vans today, JCBs and heavy plant tomorrow!

DBB

DBB wrote: »

Sorry, meant to clarify, this is a private job, not the council. I don't have any major objections to the project itself, but I do mind the increased traffic down the quiet boreen, and feel the need to draw a line they won't cross... Jeeps and vans today, JCBs and heavy plant tomorrow!

Ah right, I saw the "infrastructure" part of your post and thought it might have been a big council project. The process is still the same, its just the applicant can choose to ignore the enforcement section and some of them are a bit toothless to be honest (Roscommon Co Co, I'm looking at you, here). Best of luck. Let me know if you need a hand digging through the application/permission documents.

by8auj6csd3ioq

would there not be conditions with the planning and of they are only given permission for some entrance surely they acnnot use that entrance. I have seen some planning with conditions like work can only be bebetween certain hours. Isn't that similar

my3cents

If this is a private road then why not put a gate across the end of it?

DBB

my3cents wrote: »

If this is a private road then why not put a gate across the end of it?

It is a private road with a right of way on it, but we only own a section of it. There is nothing to stop us putting a gate up on our bit, but putting a lock on it seems extreme! Locked gates on RoWs get people's backs up in Ireland, I think.
If I find that they're contravening the terms of their planning permission (thank you $hifty for your offer of help ), and we're still having them up and down the lane despite an enforcement notice, then I would be more inclined to put up a gate with a notice drawing their attention to the proper access route!

my3cents

DBB wrote: »

It is a private road with a right of way on it, but we only own a section of it. There is nothing to stop us putting a gate up on our bit, but putting a lock on it seems extreme! Locked gates on RoWs get people's backs up in Ireland, I think.
If I find that they're contravening the terms of their planning permission (thank you $hifty for your offer of help ), and we're still having them up and down the lane despite an enforcement notice, then I would be more inclined to put up a gate with a notice drawing their attention to the proper access route!

I didn't say put a lock on it but if the new traffic has to stop to open the gate then they may soon stop. It also shows that the road is private so anyone who wants it to be otherwise has to make the next move.

nuac

As procedural matters rather than legal advice you or suitably qualified people need to

1. Inspect that PP and all attached maps regarding use of this road for that project.

2, Inspect own deeds]

3. Discuss use of this road with other adjoining owners, In particular with the local farmer who owned the adjoining land

4. Consult a solicitor with experience of title and planning matters.

5. Investigate with (4) possibility of an injunction application under Section 160 of Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended to stop use of this road. A Section 160 application can be served and got before a Judge very quickly. Days in an emergency as opposed to months in usual proceedings,

Slight downside is that an undertaking as to damages will have to be given by private litigants. E.g if at final hearing it is found injunction had no legal basis damages would arise over not being allowed to use the road.

6. If the Planning authority can be persuaded to make the section 160 application, it does not have to give any undertaking as to damages.

However some planning authorities are slower than others to make such applications.

So in summary, get a good solicitor and get going

nuac

Re Para 6 of my suggestions on procedure above, if the plans lodged do not show or claim any use of this laneway then imho an undertaking as to damages could hardly be validly required.

With great regard to Planning Authorities and all who work there, there can be some delay in getting out enforcement notices. Further they do not get the same heed as a Circuit Court injunction.

On a further procedural point, Courts close for the Long Vacation end of July until early Oct. There will be limited vacation sittings, but much more difficult to move matters during the Long Vacation. Solicitors and barristers are under particular time pressure in July because of the start of the LV.

endacl

If it’s a ROW, for the purpose of collecting turf, and you own ‘your bit’, what’s to stop you parking your car on your bit, with a note in the windscreen apologising to people heading down to collect their few sods, and that if they pop in to you and explain that they’re going down to collect turf from the bog, you’ll happily move your car from your bit of lane?

DBB

endacl wrote: »

If it’s a ROW, for the purpose of collecting turf, and you own ‘your bit’, what’s to stop you parking your car on your bit, with a note in the windscreen apologising to people heading down to collect their few sods, and that if they pop in to you and explain that they’re going down to collect turf from the bog, you’ll happily move your car from your bit of lane?

This is another option in the mix, if it comes to it!
I haven't had any luck finding the terms of their planning permission online, all I can find is a document outlining their own responses to ABP concerns.
The county council website only gives me applications granted up to 42 days ago. I'm probably missing something, but is there a standard way to see online what T+Cs are attached to their pp being granted? Or do I need to visit the planning office in person?

Glass fused light

Have you approached the contractor in charge of the site directly and asked for them to put a sign at the end of the road directing traffic to the official entry points? It could be that gps is sending people down your lane.

Your house is a after hours monitored access point, could be better long term for the contractor to keep you happy and willing to call the Gardai at 3 am on a Saturday than ignore your concern.

DBB

I doubt this is a gps issue. The main HQ for the site works is not accessible via the lane.
It was one of the senior engineers I spoke with recently, he was pretty condescending towards me, but he did a jaw-drop when he told me they had landowner permission to use the lane... Whilst he was parked on my part of the lane! The huge majority of the lane is owned by a local farmer, I'd be extremely surprised if they have his permission either, but I will check.
The engineer finally conceded to letting "everyone" know they're not to use the lane as an access point, however I want to be better prepared should they appear again, and hopefully be able to draw their attention to the fact that their access points do not include "our" lane.

Glass fused light

DBB wrote: »

I doubt this is a gps issue. The main HQ for the site works is not accessible via the lane.
It was one of the senior engineers I spoke with recently, he was pretty condescending towards me, but he did a jaw-drop when he told me they had landowner permission to use the lane... Whilst he was parked on my part of the lane! The huge majority of the lane is owned by a local farmer, I'd be extremely surprised if they have his permission either, but I will check.
The engineer finally conceded to letting "everyone" know they're not to use the lane as an access point, however I want to be better prepared should they appear again, and hopefully be able to draw their attention to the fact that their access points do not include "our" lane.

In the building trade the condescending attitude can be side effect if you are female or too polite.

Look to contact the overall site manager who should have some H&S documentation done on the Access. Plus send in a formal letter into the head officd and the site HQ requesting signage.

my3cents

Do your title deeds say anything about who is allowed access?

DBB

my3cents wrote: »

Do your title deeds say anything about who is allowed access?

Yes, it's for people on foot, or with horse and cart, to access the nearby bog for turf cutting.

DBB

Glass fused light wrote: »

In the building trade the condescending attitude can be side effect if you are female or too polite.

Look to contact the overall site manager who should have some H&S documentation done on the Access. Plus send in a formal letter into the head officd and the site HQ requesting signage.

Thank you for this. I have no doubt you're right about the condescension... The tune changed somewhat when I was able to challenge him on it being a public right of way. This made him come at me with the "we have the lane owner's permission" line... Which they don't, from me at least. I just feel they're bluffing.
At this moment, their legitimate, official access point is via a field. Their access road across this field isn't constructed yet, so they have to put their wellies on and walk to get to where they want to go, if they use the official route. It's much handier for them to use our lane to get to the bowels of the intended site.
But, it's a tiny lane, and there's been a reasonable amount of coming-and-going over the past few months which will only get worse as sod-turning day approaches.

Glass fused light

DBB wrote: »

The county council website only gives me applications granted up to 42 days ago. I'm probably missing something, but is there a standard way to see online what T+Cs are attached to their pp being granted? Or do I need to visit the planning office in person?

The last documents uploaded are likely to be what you need. Normaly listing the planning no and decision to grant in the first paragraph, it would go on to list the fees and any conditions. Or the ABP reference no. if appealed
You could call the planning department directly as you have the ref no. and ask, sometimes it's just an error or a timing issue.

tabby aspreme

Most old ROWs are for agricultural or residential use, they are using the lane for commercial use, they will need permission from all the land owners to use it. I have seen similar issues with access to forestry for timber haulage, which is classed as a commercial activity not agriculture

DBB

@Glass Fused Light...
Ah! I was having trouble finding their planning application number... But I do have their ABP reference number, so I can probably work from there.
Thanks for that info... If I can resolve this at local level, I'd far rather do so!

donegal.

what happens if you park outside your house blocking the road?

DBB

donegal. wrote: »

what happens if you park outside your house blocking the road?

We might yet see

Glass fused light

donegal. wrote: »

what happens if you park outside your house blocking the road?

The trick is timing, and politely explaining that if it continues that it's likely that some lucky punter will be driving across the field or walking home when your car breaks down in the lane.

DBB's the ABP site will have the council reference no on their file.

longgonesilver

Is there anyone still using the bog?

If not car or gate with lock could be options especially when you have written proof of ownership and permitted use.

However another consideration, was the land sold for this development? are the original owners still involved? Do they live locally?

You could also write to the main contractor, pointing out that it is a private road and asking for a financial contribution towards the maintenance of the lane if they want to continue to use it.

DBB

I'd prefer they didn't use it at all. It's not part of the deal and I like my tranquility!
The bog is still used occasionally by the owner.
My understanding from the documentation is that there is a lease arrangement with the landowners. Their land did not change hands. They would live locally.
But the entire length of lane right down to the building site is owned by people who have no interest whatsoever in the project.