Juniors eligibility

GreeBo

Discuss.:pac:

GreeBo

Included below to continue the conversation.

elbagarihno wrote: »

I agree that it doesn't make a lot of sense to pair YOU with a 12 year old if you aren't comfortable with it, but that's an issue between you and your team captain/selectors surely. Were you afraid if you complained that you'd be dropped? Team events are all about compatible pairings, bad team management in this case maybe, but more you getting in your own way due to your bias against Juniors. Did you air your views with the Team Captain & selectors?

Of course Juniors should be involved in these teams, they are the future of the game and our clubs, without them we are lost - simple.

Pints? wrote: »

The golfing population is getting older because less young people are encouraged to take it up. Clubs will be forced to close if not enough younger generations join.

Rikand wrote: »

Did you try chatting about golf ?

GreeBo wrote: »

I'm happy for them not to be eligible to win any competition that they are being given special permission to enter; be that major or otherwise tbh.


All the ones I know of do, and its only increasing in terms of strictness as the golfing population gets older.

jtown wrote: »

In our Club - any junior member under 18 H/C can play and win in any senior competition.

For EVERY player they must have played 2 single qualifying competitions in order to win a "major"

golfguy1 wrote: »

I believe the vast majority of clubs only allow juniors of a certain standard to play adult comps ie 16 or below handicap which is then controlled by adult handicap sec.
I just can't agree with leaving them enter but not win.
Not leaving them enter is punishing good golfers just cause they are under 18.
Again senior golfers generally pay a reduced fee but they are allowed win majors and represent clubs.
I just don't see the difference.

GreeBo wrote: »

While they pay the same competition entry fee, they do not pay the same subs, and hence have fewer playing rights.

You could argue that allowing them to play in the competition at all is generous, asking to be eligible to win it might result in them being excluded altogether.

My reading of the "rule" is that it is to avoid the scenario where a badly handicapped junior comes in with 44 points. The logic is that the current handicap system cannot keep up with a rapidly improving golfer, which is most likely to be a young golfer who has 'recently' taken up the game.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

Of course Juniors should be involved in these teams, they are the future of the game and our clubs, without them we are lost - simple.

Are you ok with the exclusion of olders players due to the inclusion of younger players?

Teams typically want the guys on their way down, not on the way up, so are you comfortable with Interclub matches being between a bunch of 16 year olds on both sides?
(Barring the JB Carr etc of course!)

I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest.

Rikand

As regards winning the Captains prize, it should only be possible to do so if they are paying the same membership fee as an ordinary member.

If they are paying a Junior Membership fee, then they can win the Junior Prize in the main Captains event. And I'm saying that as someone who won the Junior prize in the Captains 3 times myself. I didnt care about Captains eligibility, I just wanted to get cut.


As regards team eligibility. I think Juniors should absolutely be allowed to be a part of any team that they are presently eligible for. I played on senior club teams as a Junior and lots of my friends all did the same. Some of which formed unreal partnerships. When Athlone reached the All Ireland Final in 1997, we had a junior pairing that were undefeated the entire way through the tournament, including the final itself. If the player is good enough to be on the team, then they are good enough. End of.

A club should always look to pick the best players available to them for any team. Its about giving themselves the best opportunity of winning. Any senior member upset at losing out to a junior member should be looking at their own game rather than looking to blame the junior

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you ok with the exclusion of olders players due to the inclusion of older players?

Exclusion of older players due to the inclusion of older players ?

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

As regards winning the Captains prize, it should only be possible to do so if they are paying the same membership fee as an ordinary member.

If they are paying a Junior Membership fee, then they can win the Junior Prize in the main Captains event. And I'm saying that as someone who won the Junior prize in the Captains 3 times myself. I didnt care about Captains eligibility, I just wanted to get cut.


As regards team eligibility. I think Juniors should absolutely be allowed to be a part of any team that they are presently eligible for. I played on senior club teams as a Junior and lots of my friends all did the same. Some of which formed unreal partnerships. When Athlone reached the All Ireland Final in 1997, we had a junior pairing that were undefeated the entire way through the tournament, including the final itself. If the player is good enough to be on the team, then they are good enough. End of.

A club should always look to pick the best players available to them for any team. Its about giving themselves the best opportunity of winning. Any senior member upset at losing out to a junior member should be looking at their own game rather than looking to blame the junior

I dont think the argument is related to them being good enough, its if they *should* be picked.

The argument is always "they are the future of the club", but that ignores what pays for the "present of the club".

I think its naive to think that you wont have issues if they majority of people who pay for the majority of the running of the club are not able to represent the club in anything other than "seniors" events due to the wholesale inclusions of juniors.

Arguably there is a balance to be found.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Exclusion of older players due to the inclusion of older players ?

Fixed.

golfguy1

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you ok with the exclusion of olders players due to the inclusion of younger players?

Teams typically want the guys on their way down, not on the way up, so are you comfortable with Interclub matches being between a bunch of 16 year olds on both sides?
(Barring the JB Carr etc of course!)

I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest.

Why not just pick the best players available regardless of age.
My club had 1 junior and 1 senior on Jimmy bruen team the rest were "normal" members
Purcell teams invariably are made up of older golfers in a lot of clubs.
Junior/senior/Barton will generally have very few juniors unless they are exceptional talents to be 4 handicap at 17.
So most clubs will have a sprinkling of junior members. Not sure u will ever see a match between all juniors at interclub level.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think the argument is related to them being good enough, its if they *should* be picked.

The argument is always "they are the future of the club", but that ignores what pays for the "present of the club".

I think its naive to think that you wont have issues if they majority of people who pay for the majority of the running of the club are not able to represent the club in anything other than "seniors" events due to the wholesale inclusions of juniors.

Arguably there is a balance to be found.

It doesnt matter how much money a person pays, the question should always be whether they are good enough. If the older guy was good enough, he'd be on the team ahead of the younger guy.

I've seen teams fall apart where the older guy with the big mouth gets on the team ahead of the younger guy, older guy plays pure ****, loses his match, the team loses and the club goes out at the provincial semi-finals.

Best is best - I dont care how many pints you can buy the manager in the bar

Rikand

golfguy1 wrote: »

Why not just pick the best players available regardless of age.
My club had 1 junior and 1 senior on Jimmy bruen team the rest were "normal" members
Purcell teams invariably are made up of older golfers in a lot of clubs.
Junior/senior/Barton will generally have very few juniors unless they are exceptional talents to be 4 handicap at 17.
So most clubs will have a sprinkling of junior members. Not sure u will ever see a match between all juniors at interclub level.

Athlone play against Roscommon in the Jimmy Bruen next weekend. I'm hearing that the Roscommon team has 6 or 7 juniors on the team. Athlone might have 1 or 2. Will the juniors win, find out, next saturday, live!

GreeBo

golfguy1 wrote: »

Why not just pick the best players available regardless of age.
My club had 1 junior and 1 senior on Jimmy bruen team the rest were "normal" members
Purcell teams invariably are made up of older golfers in a lot of clubs.
Junior/senior/Barton will generally have very few juniors unless they are exceptional talents to be 4 handicap at 17.
So most clubs will have a sprinkling of junior members. Not sure u will ever see a match between all juniors at interclub level.

Because the best players available will typically be younger members.
For a team you want people who last year were just eligible handicap-wise but this year are lower. Thats how you win these things.
Thats not the pattern an older golfers handicap typically takes.

Rikand wrote: »

It doesnt matter how much money a person pays, the question should always be whether they are good enough. If the older guy was good enough, he'd be on the team ahead of the younger guy.

I've seen teams fall apart where the older guy with the big mouth gets on the team ahead of the younger guy, older guy plays pure ****, loses his match, the team loses and the club goes out at the provincial semi-finals.

Best is best - I dont care how many pints you can buy the manager in the bar

You pick the best if you are the manager focused on winning, but there is much more to a club than that. You won't have a club if choices you make annoy the majority of the people who pay the majority of the money.

Im sure we are all aware of clubs who poach the young juniors/intermediates from other nearby clubs to pad out the JNR/SCR teams. Are we all ok with that too?

I dont see how pints fits into *this* conversation.
It certainly fits into other conversations about how teams are picked however!

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

You pick the best if you are the manager focused on winning, but there is much more to a club than that. You won't have a club if choices you make annoy the majority of the people who pay the majority of the money.

You won't win any interclub competitions either.

I guess thats the choice you have to make as a club. Do we want to win or Do we just want to take part.

Personally I'd like to be playing in the club that wants to win

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

You won't win any interclub competitions either.

I guess thats the choice you have to make as a club. Do we want to win or Do we just want to take part.

Personally I'd like to be playing watching in the club that wants to win

You might have missed my Ninja edit in the post you quoted?

Anyway, let me fix your post

Also, you might still win things, but you 100% wont if you dont have a club because you pissed off all the people who bankroll it.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

You might have missed my Ninja edit in the post you quoted?

Anyway, let me fix your post

Also, you might still win things, but you 100% wont if you dont have a club because you pissed off all the people who bankroll it.

Playing in the club, watching the teams as a club member

I dont expect to make Junior cup this year. It will be the first year that I wont be involved for the last at least 10-12 years (not counting the years I was too low). This will be mainly down to the competition change of low handicap from 5 to 4, but also because my handicap hasnt decreased for a couple of years. There will be 2-3 juniors on the team ahead of me. Am I screaming that I should be on the team ahead of them ? Absolutely not. Its about having the best players on the team and if I'm not the best player then I don't deserve to be on it.

I'm going down to support in qualifying on Saturday and I'll be down to support on Sunday should we make the cut. I'll have my clubs with me too just incase :pac: , but I have no problem going to watch. Supporting the club isn't just financial. A club is more than just a place for personal glory.

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Playing in the club, watching the teams as a club member

I dont expect to make Junior cup this year. It will be the first year that I wont be involved for the last at least 10-12 years (not counting the years I was too low). This will be mainly down to the competition change of low handicap from 5 to 4, but also because my handicap hasnt decreased for a couple of years. There will be 2-3 juniors on the team ahead of me. Am I screaming that I should be on the team ahead of them ? Absolutely not. Its about having the best players on the team and if I'm not the best player then I don't deserve to be on it.

I'd argue that things get a bit more emotive at the higher handicap teams than they do at the lower end. 90% of club golfers aren't ever going to play for JNR or SNR Cup, simply down to handicap. They can however play Bloom, or Pierce Purcell or Jimmy Bruen.
But not if the latest batch of 14 year olds are filling up those teams on their way from 17 to 7 handicap.

Rikand wrote: »

I'm going down to support in qualifying on Saturday and I'll be down to support on Sunday should we make the cut. I'll have my clubs with me too just incase :pac: , but I have no problem going to watch. Supporting the club isn't just financial. A club is more than just a place for personal glory.

All true, but the bottom line is that without financial support there is no club.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

All true, but the bottom line is that without financial support there is no club.

I'd probably give strong consideration to going to look at playing for a club that wants to win in that case

Rikand

The other side of it of course is that your club could have 3-400 members who are all over the age of 50 and paying the premium sub. These teams have 10-14 players on each of them. How can you accommodate all the old guys. Or do you just need to accommodate one or two and the rest will be happy

Russman

GreeBo wrote: »

Also, you might still win things, but you 100% wont if you dont have a club because you pissed off all the people who bankroll it.

Is that not overstating it a bit though ? Has anyone ever left a club because a junior was picked to represent the club ?
I mean some clubs are lucky to be able to field a full team in some of these events, frantic phone calls the day before etc etc.

Personally I have no issue whatsoever with juniors being picked. I think it should be encouraged and fostered. I certainly don't believe that a given competition should be the preserve of a set few golfers just because of their age or standing in the club. That's not to say I'm against the JB Carr or the Fred Daly, just that I think the non-age limited competitions should be open to all. And being realistic its rare to find more than a few juniors on any team bar maybe Senior Cup or Barton Shield.

A lot of guys who, say, are playing Metro every single year for the last 20 complain when they come up against a team with 4 or 5 young guys who were off 9 to be eligible last year, but are now maybe off 5 by the time the summer comes round - sorry, suck it up, that's just golf. Some club teams are harder to get off than get on to.

I dunno, we had a senior paired up with a junior in the PP recently and they were our best pair and to be honest I don't think I've ever heard many, if any, whine about juniors on teams.

GreeBo

Russman wrote: »

Is that not overstating it a bit though ? Has anyone ever left a club because a junior was picked to represent the club ?
I mean some clubs are lucky to be able to field a full team in some of these events, frantic phone calls the day before etc etc.

I'm sure no one has left because a junior was picked, I think most clubs realise that they need to balance the team. But I reckon that if the entire pierce purcell team was under 20 there would be more than a few disgruntled members.

Rikand wrote: »

The other side of it of course is that your club could have 3-400 members who are all over the age of 50 and paying the premium sub. These teams have 10-14 players on each of them. How can you accommodate all the old guys. Or do you just need to accommodate one or two and the rest will be happy

I dont think you need to accomodate them all as thats impossible, but see above, I think they need to feel they stand a chance of making a team that they are handicap eligible for. If you pick all juniors who made the handicap requirements last you I think you'd have teams made up of mostly juniors.
Most managers would be aware that this would cause tensions within the club.

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you ok with the exclusion of olders players due to the inclusion of younger players?

Teams typically want the guys on their way down, not on the way up, so are you comfortable with Interclub matches being between a bunch of 16 year olds on both sides?
(Barring the JB Carr etc of course!)

I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest.

It not excluding the older players in favour of the younger guys, there should be a mix if that's what you have available. I can't imagine an Interclub team made up purely of 16 year olds, I think you might have taken this to an extreme that is HIGHLY unlikely.

In Fourball or Foursomes you'd be more likely to see a solid lower guy with a Junior on his way down.

But in singles competitions (Senior Cup), if the 16 year olds are the best golfers you've got at the club, why wouldn't you play them all?

elbagarihno

Rikand wrote: »

Exclusion of older players due to the inclusion of older players ?

Freudian slip, that one.

Maybe it should read 'exclusion of a member due to the inclusion of another member' - which is, ah yes, that's how teams are picked.

According to the rules Juniors are eligible to play these competitions, it is up to the clubs themselves how they choose to select teams.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

Freudian slip, that one.

Maybe it should read 'exclusion of a member due to the inclusion of another member' - which is, ah yes, that's how teams are picked.

According to the rules Juniors are eligible to play these competitions, it is up to the clubs themselves how they choose to select teams.

A Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

It not excluding the older players in favour of the younger guys, there should be a mix if that's what you have available. I can't imagine an Interclub team made up purely of 16 year olds, I think you might have taken this to an extreme that is HIGHLY unlikely.

But the point still stands, if you have no problem with under 20s playing then you should equally have no problem with the team being only made up of under 20s.
If they are the lowest handicaps then why not?

elbagarihno wrote: »

In Fourball or Foursomes you'd be more likely to see a solid lower guy with a Junior on his way down.

But in singles competitions (Senior Cup), if the 16 year olds are the best golfers you've got at the club, why wouldn't you play them all?

In fourball or foursomes you still want the best guys playing, I dont see why you wouldnt pick a solid junior 5 handicap to pair with an 18 year old junior?

We already agreed that that young, low guys are typically on JNR/SNR cup, making them perfect partners for another young mid teen guy?
What would make you suddenly not pick them for pairs format?

slingerz

Juniors already have Junior interclub events to partake in. If a junior is eligible for Senior/Junior/Barton then fine let them play in that as they will be at the lower end of the handicap range where the least amount of golfers are.

For Bruen a large portion of your clubs membership are in the handicap ranges required so these competitions should be for those adult members to partake in. In purcell you must be over 18 to be a member of the team and the same should be true for the Bruen

golfguy1

slingerz wrote: »

Juniors already have Junior interclub events to partake in. If a junior is eligible for Senior/Junior/Barton then fine let them play in that as they will be at the lower end of the handicap range where the least amount of golfers are.

For Bruen a large portion of your clubs membership are in the handicap ranges required so these competitions should be for those adult members to partake in. In purcell you must be over 18 to be a member of the team and the same should be true for the Bruen

Seriously lads. How many juniors actually make bruen teams anyway at best 2 or 3 in most clubs.
Also remember the clubs struggling to field teams who might use the juniors to boost nimbers
Can't believe the attitude from some of ye towards junior golfers.

GreeBo

golfguy1 wrote: »

Seriously lads. How many juniors actually make bruen teams anyway at best 2 or 3 in most clubs.
Also remember the clubs struggling to field teams who might use the juniors to boost nimbers
Can't believe the attitude from some of ye towards junior golfers.

Clubs struggling for players are obviously not the issue that is being discussed!

I dont think someone being unhappy with juniors being picked for all the interclub teams says everything about their attitude towards junior golfers?

slingerz

golfguy1 wrote: »

Seriously lads. How many juniors actually make bruen teams anyway at best 2 or 3 in most clubs.
Also remember the clubs struggling to field teams who might use the juniors to boost nimbers
Can't believe the attitude from some of ye towards junior golfers.

its no attitude to junior golfers, they have the fred daly to partake in.
there should be seperate competitions for each subset of player within a club. at the top levels let them play against each other by all means but at PP & Bruen level there are enough adult members in every club to fill a team.

Dormy

Purcell is for over 18's. I think that is logical.
I think a happy medium would be appropriate in Jimmy Bruen ie limit each team to a max of 4 under 18's.
Low hcap competions like Jnr cup, Snr cup, barton etc should be open to all.
We have 3 Juniors on our Bruen panel. 2 x 16 year olds and a 13 year old. I have no issue at all with this. Brilliant experience for them. I have spoken to a lot of members about it and only one person has expressed reservations. he felt the 13 year old should not be playing..
One club we played last weekend had 8 juniors on a panel of 14. They all played at least one of the 2 matches. Most played both. They got beaten in 2nd match. A gamble in my view that did not pay off.
The only slight issue I have with the juniors playing is that when it comes down to the final stages late in the year you could have multiple juniors playing off 4,5,6,7 who were 11,12,13 or more at start of the year. A team full of those guys would be practically impossible to beat. That is why I would put a limit on it.
Some clubs actually struggle to get enough people who want to play and would be lost without a few juniors in the mix

moycullen14

Dormy wrote: »

Purcell is for over 18's. I think that is logical.
I think a happy medium would be appropriate in Jimmy Bruen ie limit each team to a max of 4 under 18's.
Low hcap competions like Jnr cup, Snr cup, barton etc should be open to all.
We have 3 Juniors on our Bruen panel. 2 x 16 year olds and a 13 year old. I have no issue at all with this. Brilliant experience for them. I have spoken to a lot of members about it and only one person has expressed reservations. he felt the 13 year old should not be playing..
One club we played last weekend had 8 juniors on a panel of 14. They all played at least one of the 2 matches. Most played both. They got beaten in 2nd match. A gamble in my view that did not pay off.
The only slight issue I have with the juniors playing is that when it comes down to the final stages late in the year you could have multiple juniors playing off 4,5,6,7 who were 11,12,13 or more at start of the year. A team full of those guys would be practically impossible to beat. That is why I would put a limit on it.
Some clubs actually struggle to get enough people who want to play and would be lost without a few juniors in the mix

I would agree, handicap lag is an issue for juniors on the way down. There could be (and often is) a huge gap between their qualifying and current handicap. Given that lots of courses have been non-qualifying since last september/october, you could have some juniors (tbf the same could apply to older players) who are 4-5 shots 'better' that their bruen handicap.

We have 2 or 3 juniors on the bruen panel each year and they usually play for one year only - taking advantage of the handicap 'lag'.

GreeBo

moycullen14 wrote: »

I would agree, handicap lag is an issue for juniors on the way down. There could be (and often is) a huge gap between their qualifying and current handicap. Given that lots of courses have been non-qualifying since last september/october, you could have some juniors (tbf the same could apply to older players) who are 4-5 shots 'better' that their bruen handicap.

We have 2 or 3 juniors on the bruen panel each year and they usually play for one year only - taking advantage of the handicap 'lag'.

As I said earlier, its very rare for an older player to be in the scenario where they have dropped a number of shots since last year (fortunately Im one of them )

For younger players it frequently happens.

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

But the point still stands, if you have no problem with under 20s playing then you should equally have no problem with the team being only made up of under 20s.
If they are the lowest handicaps then why not?



In fourball or foursomes you still want the best guys playing, I dont see why you wouldnt pick a solid junior 5 handicap to pair with an 18 year old junior?

We already agreed that that young, low guys are typically on JNR/SNR cup, making them perfect partners for another young mid teen guy?
What would make you suddenly not pick them for pairs format?

I honestly have no problem with a team full of Juniors if that's the best team the club can put out, no reason to be confused.

My point was merely that it is more common to see an older member off a lower handicap paired with a Junior.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

I honestly have no problem with a team full of Juniors if that's the best team the club can put out, no reason to be confused.

My point was merely that it is more common to see an older member off a lower handicap paired with a Junior.

Well you said

there should be a mix if that's what you have available.

So should there be a mix or should it just be the best players available across all teams? What about Pierce Purcell being 18+ only?

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

Well you said



So should there be a mix or should it just be the best players available across all teams? What about Pierce Purcell being 18+ only?

Stop being so petty. It should be the best TEAM you can select as a manager, regardless of age, within the rules of the competition.

IMHO a mix of ages would gave a better balance, certainly at our club, but that isn't always going to be the case.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

Stop being so petty. It should be the best TEAM you can select as a manager, regardless of age, within the rules of the competition.

IMHO a mix of ages would gave a better balance, certainly at our club, but that isn't always going to be the case.

Petty?

I'm trying to clarify your post because it was confusing for me.

You are saying it should both be the best players available, regardless of age
AND that it should be a mix of ages.

At least for me, they are somewhat contradictory.

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

Petty?

I'm trying to clarify your post because it was confusing for me.

You are saying it should both be the best players available, regardless of age
AND that it should be a mix of ages.

At least for me, they are somewhat contradictory.

Puzzled as to how this has confused you, but let me try to clarify.

Yes, you should select the best team from whatever players are eligible, regardless of age.

Teams are not always made up of the best players; unless the matches are individual, as in Senior and Junior Cup. However, in Foursomes/Fourball you might need to consider the possibility that 2 guys don't get along, or don't combine well for whatever reason. In this case, and this is not contradictory, it is purely my opinion that an mix of experience and youth can work very well.

I hope that is clearer for you.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

Puzzled as to how this has confused you, but let me try to clarify.

Yes, you should select the best team from whatever players are eligible, regardless of age.

Teams are not always made up of the best players; unless the matches are individual, as in Senior and Junior Cup. However, in Foursomes/Fourball you might need to consider the possibility that 2 guys don't get along, or don't combine well for whatever reason. In this case, and this is not contradictory, it is purely my opinion that an mix of experience and youth can work very well.

I hope that is clearer for you.

I still think its contradictory but I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you over it.

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

I still think its contradictory but I'm not interested in getting into an argument with you over it.

I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree on this

I think you might be getting hung up on the whole best players thing. As I said, I don't believe the best team is always made up of the best players.

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

I don't believe the best team is always made up of the best players.

:eek:
We will definitely have to agree to disagree!

elbagarihno

GreeBo wrote: »

:eek:
We will definitely have to agree to disagree!

Ok, last post on this (maybe)

Lets take a Barton example:

So you have a really solid 5, who likes to quietly work his round - are you going to stick him with a cocky motormouth playing off 9, or an evidently more suitable 10 that he plays with regularly?

GreeBo

elbagarihno wrote: »

Ok, last post on this (maybe)

Lets take a Barton example:

So you have a really solid 5, who likes to quietly work his round - are you going to stick him with a cocky motormouth playing off 9, or an evidently more suitable 10 that he plays with regularly?

I'd pair him with whoever he brings in the best score with, the difference between 9 & 10 is negligible.

With Juniors its more likely that someone who was 9 last year is 5 this year, then I'll pick him with the other 5 as otherwise you are giving up 5 shots to the field.