Where should Ireland's priorities be in relation to road investment?

marno21

A post on the N22 thread has inspired me to create this thread for this reason:

The National Development Plan has allocated €6.6bn to capital investment on national roads between now and 2027. Of this figure, €900m has been allocated to the delivery of a new road between Cork and Limerick

The full list of schemes can be seen here in the NDP: http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/NDP-strategy-2018-2027_WEB.pdf (Page 41 of the publication, Page 43 of the pdf)

Where do you think this money will go?

The money will be spent over two phases as seen on the page in the document above. The first tranche of money will be spent on projects which have been confirmed for delivery, which are under the headings Inter urban roads and Accessibility to the north west. Most of these projects will be delivered between now and 2022 or so (with some such as the N6 and M20 having construction ongoing until 2025/6). In light of the fact there are no projects far enough in the planning process to be delivered by then, it is extremely likely these will all be delivered.

The second tranche is approximately 25 schemes, which were suspended in the past and are now being reactivated, and will be phased on a priority driven basis (One scheme is missing, N22 Killarney-Farranfore which is being appraised like all the others). None of these schemes are remotely close to planning approval so will not start until at the very least 2023.

marno21

I have a number of points to express that I will put in a separate post as follows (wanted to leave the first post as a neutral one):

1. The A5. The A5 will be the main route to North Donegal and Derry, the latter of which is in a different jurisdiction, which is undergoing a departure from the EU and is facing an uncertain future regarding its border and travel freedoms. I personally believe that one red cent should not be spent on the A5 until the main route from Dublin to the border at Aughnacloy and the border at Strabane to Letterkenny is upgraded down to the last kilometre. If the A5 is being dualled in full then the N2 from Ardee to Emyvale and N14 from Letterkenny to Lifford are done in full. It does not make sense for a person from Letterkenny to be driving on a shocking road (the N14) in their own country and then they enter another country where the road vastly improves but is paid for by his own Government. I don't see the UK Government reciprocating and donating money for N14/N2 upgrades as part of a "cross border gesture".

2. The North West and accessibility. The North West is receiving substantial investment in the NDP with substantial sections of the N2, N4, N17, and parts of the N13, N14, N15 being upgraded, along with 60km of upgrades to the N5. These are comparatively lightly trafficked routes compared to other parts of the country. Take the south west for example. The N20, N21 and N22 have improved parts and are wider in places than the north west routes, but they also carry double the traffic. The North West has done exceptionally well from this NDP and there should be more focused investment in the southwest which has lots of bottlenecks remaining. I don't disagree that the N2/N4/N17 and the others require investment but the north west is getting a substantially disproportionate amount of funding compared to the rest of the country in this plan.

If I think of more I will post them

annfield1978

N2 and N4 will see investment soon

marno21

annfield1978 wrote: »

N2 and N4 will see investment soon

Mullingar-Longford, Ardee-Castleblayney & Clontibret-Border?

Kevwoody

In the last 10 - 15 years the southwest has seen 2 direct motorway links to Dublin in the M7 and M8. Major upgrades to junctions on the N40. The Jack Lynch and Shannon tunnels.
The M20 will probably be delivered long before any proper links from Donegal to Dublin is complete.

I dont understand why this has to be about the northwest versus the southwest. Every project in each region is deserving of funding.

You may call it an imbalance in this development plan, but the northwest has been neglected for long enough.

marno21

Kevwoody wrote: »

In the last 10 - 15 years the southwest has seen 2 direct motorway links to Dublin in the M7 and M8.

The M7 and M8 were built as part of a nationwide plan to connect all cities to Ireland. The northwest got improved access via the M1 and M4. The M8 (and indeed the M1) were TEN-T core routes and required upgrading anyway.

Kevwoody wrote: »

Major upgrades to junctions on the N40.

Which should have been done when the then N25 was built. The upgrades on the N40 brought the junctions up to the same standard as the pre-upgrade M50 junctions. The Kinsale Road roundabout remains congested post upgrade.

Kevwoody wrote: »

The Jack Lynch and Shannon tunnels.

The Jack Lynch tunnel was opened in 1999, that's a long time ago now. The Jack Lynch tunnel was also absolutely critical and without it Cork wouldn't function. The Shannon tunnel was a PPP funded by the private sector, although does require ongoing state subvention, which is mitigated by the requirement of the PPP concessionaire to operate the road.

Kevwoody wrote: »

The M20 will probably be delivered long before any proper links from Donegal to Dublin is complete.

Parts of the A5, the N4 dual carriageway in Sligo, the Slane bypass will all be delivered by the M20. I know it's not much

Kevwoody wrote: »

I dont understand why this has to be about the northwest versus the southwest. Every project in each region is deserving of funding.

You may call it an imbalance in this development plan, but the northwest has been neglected for long enough.

Me either. The northwest and the southwest have both been neglected, but the northwest has got a massive treasure chest in the plan. I am in agreement with you about the northwest requiring massive investment, but I also agree that the southwest needs similar investment. The southwest (by which I mainly mean Cork and Kerry) is not getting the investment it requires in the plan, comparable to what the NW is getting.

I am more than happy to see the investment the NW is getting especially in relation to the N14 which is a joke, the N2 in Monaghan which is a massive safety issue, the Ballybofey/Stranorlar bypass, the N4 in Sligo, the N17 from Charlestown to the N4 roundabout which is very slow and dangerous, the extra bridge over the River Swilly in Letterkenny etc. Don't for a second think I am suggesting defunding these and spending it on the SW, but a bit of balance wouldn't go a stray. We do have better roads on a km per km basis in the SW but we also have multiples of traffic volumes.

Irish_rat

The N17 needs an upgrade from Tubbercurry to Colooney.

The N15 through Sligo county needs to be sorted.

The N4 needs few sections upgraded.

I think the A5 needs to be dualled to Dublin as the road is so poor right now and the traffic levels can be very high on it.

The N24 is beyond dire, needs serious upgrades.

Cork and Galway need dual rings done, N22, N25 need upgrading.

N21 will be need a bit done.

marno21

Irish_rat wrote: »

The N17 needs an upgrade from Tubbercurry to Colooney.

Agreed, it's in the NDP. I think at least some of it will get done. The fact that Claremorris-Tuam was omitted further helps this

Irish_rat wrote: »

The N15 through Sligo county needs to be sorted.

Badly so, but it won't be done in the next 10 years

Irish_rat wrote: »

The N4 needs few sections upgraded.

I think Mullingar-Longford and the Carrick bypass is pretty much a shoe in for the NDP funding. That just leaves Castlebaldwin-Carrick and Roosky-Longford, the former which can be online widened to 2+2 and the latter a short scheme for dualling.

Irish_rat wrote: »

I think the A5 needs to be dualled to Dublin as the road is so poor right now and the traffic levels can be very high on it.

I think so, but not funded by the South until the South have fully upgraded the approach roads to the A5 (N2/N14) and there is clarity on the border issue.

Irish_rat wrote: »

The N24 is beyond dire, needs serious upgrades.

Cork and Galway need dual rings done, N22, N25 need upgrading.

N21 will be need a bit done.

Big issue here is that those 3 lines require about €3bn of funding. The N24 (110km - approx cost 900m-1bn), Cork North Ring (400m), Galway Ring (600m), N22 Macroom-Ovens (24km 200m) + Macroom-Ballyvourney (22km 160m) + N25 in Cork (30km 220m) + N21 Abbeyfeale-Rathkeale (33km 250m)

Annabella1

Limerick to waterford road
Responsible for all trucks travelling to rosslare from the west and Midwest

EdgeCase

Mostly down to simple demographics and the fact that those roads serve the second and third biggest population centres in the state. You'll inevitably get more road infrastructure in Cork and Limerick, much like you do in Dublin.

Donegal definitely needs better infrastructure though. It's very odd to continue the A5 spend with Brexit possibly going to cause the road to be inaccessible.

Donegal Storm

The reason the NW is getting proportionally more investment is that it was largely ignored for the entirety of the Celtic Tiger years, aside from some bit-part N2 and N4 upgrades and the Bundoran to Donegal road, access isn't much better than it was in the 90s. The Derry/Letterkenny corridor is, I would estimate, the fourth biggest population centre on the island after Dublin, Belfast and Cork yet it's connected to the rest of the country by old donkey track alignments and as a result it's still an economic backwater.

I'm not at all familiar with the roads in the SW but by all accounts there's also a dearth in infrastructure so would agree there should be more of a focus there as well. I'd have no issues with diverting A5 money to the Cork - Tralee road given the current mess with the border

marno21

Annabella1 wrote: »

Limerick to waterford road
Responsible for all trucks travelling to rosslare from the west and Midwest

I agree, and Limerick Junction-Waterford made it into the NDP.

Donegal Storm wrote: »

The reason the NW is getting proportionally more investment is that it was largely ignored for the entirety of the Celtic Tiger years, aside from some bit-part N2 and N4 upgrades and the Bundoran to Donegal road, access isn't much better than it was in the 90s. The Derry/Letterkenny corridor is, I would estimate, the fourth biggest population centre on the island after Dublin, Belfast and Cork yet it's connected to the rest of the country by old donkey track alignments and as a result it's still an economic backwater.

I'm not at all familiar with the roads in the SW but by all accounts there's also a dearth in infrastructure so would agree there should be more of a focus there as well. I'd have no issues with diverting A5 money to the Cork - Tralee road given the current mess with the border

I would divert all money being spent on the A5, not to Munster but to the N2 and the N14. I see absolutely no reason why 1km of the A5 should be done before the roads that connect to it in the Republic are done. There's little point in upgrading a road in another jurisdiction when the roads that connect to it in your own jurisdiction are a disgrace. It's important to note the relatively high proportion of deaths on the N2 between Ardee and the border also.

Derry/Letterkenny would have huge potential were it not for the border. As long as the border remains in place no amount of dualling of roads is going to solve the issues the border causes. Same with parts of Cavan/Monaghan that are severely economically constrained by the border.

bigar

I do not think it is completely correct to only focus on where people are today and put transport infrastructure to cope with current traffic.

Fact is that part of the country, Co Donegal, is inadequately connected to other parts of the country. By constructing a motor way there, it will not only improve access to he locals. It will also bring in more tourists, businesses may consider moving there as they can now connect better to the rest of the country, bringing in jobs.

I do think that we should keep the connection in country to avoid hassle when brexit kicks in. I would like to see the N3 be upgraded to Cavan (or even closer to the border) and then a new motorway that connects from there to Donegal or Letterkenny looping around Co Fermanagh.

Then it is possible to connect that new Motorway to an extension of the M19 and, as I am dreaming anyway, an extended M4. This would then create a web of Motorways in that part of the country similar to how it is in the South East.

roadmaster

Hopefully they will complete the Motorway Network. Then i would like to see a major works program for the upgrading of National Secondary roads particularly for safety reasons. Taking out 100 meters of bad bends and sorting out junctions with better line of sight wont cost a bomb but will certainly help save a few people.

Speaking from being based in the east of the country i wonder is a review of commuter routes due. I say this because many Regional roads are now bumper to bumper as well

spacetweek

roadmaster wrote: »

Taking out 100 meters of bad bends and sorting out junctions with better line of sight wont cost a bomb but will certainly help save a few people.

Wouldn’t cost a lot at all.

EdgeCase

I think we should be pressuring the EU to secure funding (as part of the divorce settlement) to ensure the NW isn't cut off.

I'd suggest a major upgrade of the primary N-roads in the region to at least centre barrier motorway standards.

There's a lot of cross border investment that will be potentially rendered useless to Donegal.

Irish_rat

bigar wrote: »

Then it is possible to connect that new Motorway to an extension of the M19 and, as I am dreaming anyway, an extended M4. This would then create a web of Motorways in that part of the country similar to how it is in the South East.

Yes you are! There will be no motorway's in Donegal ever, the AADT is too low to justify one.

EdgeCase

Very much improved N roads are perfectly justifiable though.

Even having having regular passing lanes and getting them up to a safer and more pleasant standard would be a huge improvement.

Aontachtoir

EdgeCase wrote: »

Very much improved N roads are perfectly justifiable though.

Even having having regular passing lanes and getting them up to a safer and more pleasant standard would be a huge improvement.

Absolutely. It should not be the case in an N-road in any part of the country that a prudent driver should feel unsafe travelling at 100 km/h. In particular, the Northwest needs every cent of road investment it can get.

lucernarian

I think there's a strong case to have have a high-standard regional road or Secondary National going from the vicinity of Co. Monaghan or Louth to Sligo town. The border counties are likely going to suffer in the future and it doesn't help that only N-S (to Dublin) journeys have been easily facilitated.

The N2 is already in quite good condition (an easy drive, not too hard to overtake whenever I use it in most places), parts of the N4 not so much but the Castlebaldwin planning seems to be at an advanced stage. The N15 needs more attention (Ballybofey) , as does parts of the ridiculous N16.

The M20 and M28 seem like critical pieces of the puzzle in the south and I hope they are delivered.

jspuds

Biggest investment needed IMO is the Eastern Bypass of M50 which would complete the loop and alleviate some of the pressure on the western routes

Chris_5339762

jspuds wrote: »

Biggest investment needed IMO is the Eastern Bypass of M50 which would complete the loop and alleviate some of the pressure on the western routes

It would be nice, but I think Dublin is at the stage where adding motorways, whilst useful, will just release pent-up urban demand and saturate quickly. Massive public transport investment is needed to drive down the demand on these routes.

AugustusMinimus

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It would be nice, but I think Dublin is at the stage where adding motorways, whilst useful, will just release pent-up urban demand and saturate quickly. Massive public transport investment is needed to drive down the demand on these routes.

Agreed. Public transport now key in Dublin.

Chris_5339762

I guess there is an argument for the eastern bypass segment between the N11 and the current M50 at Sandyford, but unless they build a massive tunnel to the south port (where the new proposed extension from the current terminus at the port tunnel is), it won't be feasible. The old proposal for a Sandymount Strand bridge just wouldn't be accepted in this day-and-age.

Minister

N24 Waterford to Limerick and N25 Waterford to Cork either new roads or Waterford to Cahir and on to M8 and Cork to Limerick via Cahir with major upgrades around both Cork and Limerick to accommodate same.

Also upgrade N11/N25 from Oylegate to Drinagh roundabout in Wexford as sudden stop to M11 is going to cause a bottleneck at Oylegate.

By the way, given that there is a railway line from Waterford to Galway and Cork both via Limerick junction does anyone have an idea of the cost/benefit of upgrading services and infrastructure to remove traffic from roads versus upgrades to N24/N25 to Motorway/Dual Carriageway? No reason for question- just curious!

Minister

Two more deaths on N24 yesterday. How many more before the people in Government or the many State Bodies responsible for roads decide to invest in upgrading this awful road?

marno21

Minister wrote: »

Two more deaths on N24 yesterday. How many more before the people in Government or the many State Bodies responsible for roads decide to invest in upgrading this awful road?

Even at that, the section of N24 prioritised for investment is Limerick Junction-Waterford. The stretch around Dromkeen will be the last to get done