Stove in passive house

dellas1979

Hi all,

On my project, currently diddering about whether to install a chimney and stove (house will be to a near passive level). I will have air to water heat pump/UFH on both floors.

I love fires and nothing cosier in a winters eve. Find them calming. TBH, the stove might only be lit few times a year.

But the cost of the chimney is about 1.3k. And am being told about 1.5 k for a stove.

Anyone any ideas on a cheap(er) stove? (would need its own outside air source/not pull air from inside).

Any thoughts on pluses/minuses appreciated for/against a chimney/stove (other than I love fires).

Am even thinking of not installing chimney and just having an electric-type fire effect.

Am very budget conscious, so any ideas and thoughts welcome. I just want to make the best decision for budget and house/future.

Thank you!

d

Metric Tensor

You won't need the stove for heat and in fact lighting it will be a pain in the arse if you have underfloor heating because due to the slow response time of underfloor heating the room will get too hot unless you've allowed it to cool down for hours in advance of lighting the stove.

So - it's totally for the aesthetic - which I agree is very nice.

Strong argument for something "artificial" if you can live with that - some can, some can't, some can fully embrace the fact that stoves in modern houses are a purely decorative cost and have none at all.

It's all about where your priorities lie! Check with your BER/DEAP assessor too though because there's a strange quirk in the heat pump renewable calculations that sometimes allows your compliance to actually benefit from a less efficient house!

_Brian

Buy a really good quality electric stove.

sydthebeat

Ethanol.

Solves all problems

Metric Tensor

But once she sobers up she'll still have to make a decision about the stove Syd!

dellas1979

Lols-thanks guys.

Any advice on good looking ethanol/electric fires?

Gosh I would love a real fire tho...I suppose a stove isnt really a fire is it. As in big blazing fire.

Feck it...

BryanF

Have a wood stove, really love it. HP & power cut.....

dellas1979

BryanF wrote: »

Have a wood stove, really love it. HP & power cut.....

What is HP? Reading things here about ethanol fires (dont run on electricity, altho not much heat come from them).

Gosh-how does one choose?

Would a stove be redundant in a passive house/UFH? Would I literally be passing out?

BryanF

dellas1979 wrote: »

What is HP? Reading things here about ethanol fires (dont run on electricity, altho not much heat come from them).

Gosh-how does one choose?

Would a stove be redundant in a passive house/UFH? Would I literally be passing out?

I took from the Origional Post your not building a passive house. Only way you’ll know is to calculate the heat loss/gains. HP : heat pump

looksee

Since the power cuts of the 70's I have always had non-electric-reliant heat and cooking options. I am also proposing to have an air to water system but - and I have to investigate this further - I am hoping that occasional use of a stove as an alternative to electric boost will be more satisfactory. Either way I am not assuming there will be totally reliable electricity supply for ever. I am also not interested in a passive house - the recycling of the air requires electricity too, and anyway I like to be able to open windows.

Shaunoc

i have a small wood stove with outside air intake in a new house with HP and UFH.
Wouldn't be without it - changes the room completely and gives a nice focal point for large open plan area when its lit.
was great during snowmageddon also, keeping us toasty and gave me a feeling (rightly/wrongly) that HP wouldn't overwork itself for that period.

runawaybishop

dellas1979 wrote: »

Lols-thanks guys.

Any advice on good looking ethanol/electric fires?

Gosh I would love a real fire tho...I suppose a stove isnt really a fire is it. As in big blazing fire.

Feck it...

Have an ethanol fire, bit of a pain in the arse getting fuel, have to order it from germany, and not a patch on a proper fire. No stove or chimney in my house, biggest regret of my build. You can get room sealed stoves that draw from outside.

Metric Tensor

looksee wrote: »

Since the power cuts of the 70's I have always had non-electric-reliant heat and cooking options. I am also proposing to have an air to water system but - and I have to investigate this further - I am hoping that occasional use of a stove as an alternative to electric boost will be more satisfactory. Either way I am not assuming there will be totally reliable electricity supply for ever. I am also not interested in a passive house - the recycling of the air requires electricity too, and anyway I like to be able to open windows.

Two things:

1. You can open the windows in all houses, passive or otherwise. There's some cock and bull story doing the rounds that you can't open windows in passive houses - I have no idea what the people propogating this story think the handles on these windows are for .. decoration?

2. Air is not recycled in a MHRV syste.. Fresh air is pumped in and stale air is extracted. Some of the heat from the stale air is put into the incoming fresh air without mixing the two.

dellas1979

runawaybishop wrote: »

Have an ethanol fire, bit of a pain in the arse getting fuel, have to order it from germany, and not a patch on a proper fire. No stove or chimney in my house, biggest regret of my build. You can get room sealed stoves that draw from outside.

Thanks for the reply.

Can I ask, where did you get the ethanol fire?

Id like to see one, and am trying to look up places in the mid-west, but these ethanol fires dont seem to be too popular (at least, yet).

runawaybishop

dellas1979 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

Can I ask, where did you get the ethanol fire?

Id like to see one, and am trying to look up places in the mid-west, but these ethanol fires dont seem to be too popular (at least, yet).

Ordered it online from German eBay, they are a lot cheaper in Germany than here.

https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1311.R1.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xbio-ethanol.TRS0&_nkw=bioethanol&_sacat=0

dellas1979

Shaunoc wrote: »

i have a small wood stove with outside air intake in a new house with HP and UFH.
Wouldn't be without it - changes the room completely and gives a nice focal point for large open plan area when its lit.
was great during snowmageddon also, keeping us toasty and gave me a feeling (rightly/wrongly) that HP wouldn't overwork itself for that period.

Thanks for reply.

Well, your systems UFH/HP seem to be the same as mine.

Rather than the asthetics of the fire (I do love a good fire, so this is why its a head scratching decision for me), but is your UFH enough for winter cold days here?

And could I ask what stove you got?

Am thinking, if I do go with a chimney/stove, I dont need a big one to pump out much heat.

B-D-P--

My opinion.

You may loose some airtightness and some thermal bridging,
However, its your house, if you like the idea, do it.

We argued against enginneer to put one in, I ended up telling him, its my house, if I wanted to put a firepit in it i'd be doing it.
F all this building purley for what will be best for insulation, there has to also be nice features that you want.

If you want a stove, get a stove. Just do a good job installing it and make sure its external air feed.

iceax

I put one in for my-build and guess what i can't lighting it, have to open windows just to light it ,

dellas1979

B-D-P-- wrote: »

its your house, if you like the idea, do it.

Cheers.

I know. Its just I dont know what I want!

So I thought then, whats the best thing to do/makes most sense.

dellas1979

iceax wrote: »

I put one in for my-build and guess what i can't lighting it, have to open windows just to light it ,

You are talking about ethanol?

looksee

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Two things:

1. You can open the windows in all houses, passive or otherwise. There's some cock and bull story doing the rounds that you can't open windows in passive houses - I have no idea what the people propogating this story think the handles on these windows are for .. decoration?

2. Air is not recycled in a MHRV syste.. Fresh air is pumped in and stale air is extracted. Some of the heat from the stale air is put into the incoming fresh air without mixing the two.

I realise you can open windows but there does not appear to be a lot of sense in sealing the house then opening a window - my bedroom window has been open a crack all winter (no heating) and I like it that way. I was in one passive demo house, and while the design (layout/appearance/finish) was very good, I felt the air was 'dead', I would have loved to throw open a window.

I also realise air is not recycled, it was careless use of words - but the fact remains that you have to have electricity to operate the system and I would prefer to have a non-electric alternative available to me.

Thank you for your comments though, based on what I said they are very good points.

runawaybishop

looksee wrote: »

I realise you can open windows but there does not appear to be a lot of sense in sealing the house then opening a window - my bedroom window has been open a crack all winter (no heating) and I like it that way. I was in one passive demo house, and while the design (layout/appearance/finish) was very good, I felt the air was 'dead', I would have loved to throw open a window.

I also realise air is not recycled, it was careless use of words - but the fact remains that you have to have electricity to operate the system and I would prefer to have a non-electric alternative available to me.

Thank you for your comments though, based on what I said they are very good points.

Air shouldn't be dead, if it is then it is done wrong. System operates even when the power goes out, just no where near as much.

Live at Three

Our house was built almost a year ago. Very well insulated to modern requirements but not passive. HP and UFH. We put in a stove just for aesthetics, but it makes the place too warm so after 2 goes we stopped using it. We don't really miss the aesthetic thing!

I've a bag of sticks and a bag of coal in the shed since last November!

When you say chimney do you mean a full brick chimney or just a stove pipe? We have the stove pipe, wasn't that expensive.

dellas1979

Live at Three wrote: »

Our house was built almost a year ago. Very well insulated to modern requirements but not passive. HP and UFH. We put in a stove just for aesthetics, but it makes the place too warm so after 2 goes we stopped using it. We don't really miss the aesthetic thing!

I've a bag of sticks and a bag of coal in the shed since last November!

When you say chimney do you mean a full brick chimney or just a stove pipe? We have the stove pipe, wasn't that expensive.

Thanks for reply.

Yep a brick chimney.

What is a stove pipe? Ive to learn all this on the go.

If anyone has any recommendations also for any various stoves.

Thank you!

runawaybishop

dellas1979 wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

Yep a brick chimney.

What is a stove pipe? Ive to learn all this on the go.

If anyone has any recommendations also for any various stoves.

Thank you!

Stove pipe is just the metal flue off a stove, you can stick it outside just above the stove, or run it up the wall and outside at the top of the room, it acts more like a radiator then.

https://www.stovesonline.co.uk/direct-air-supply-stoves.html

Blanchy90

If its just for the aesthetic the dimplex sp16 electric fire looks great

runawaybishop

Blanchy90 wrote: »

If its just for the aesthetic the dimplex sp16 electric fire looks great

Electric fires are very expensive to run though.

Blanchy90

runawaybishop wrote: »

Electric fires are very expensive to run though.

I'm planning on getting the above fire soon and I'll be just using the light and not the heat so it shouldn't be too expensive to run.

Very expensive for a lamp though :pac:

Metric Tensor

looksee wrote: »

I also realise air is not recycled, it was careless use of words - but the fact remains that you have to have electricity to operate the system and I would prefer to have a non-electric alternative available to me.

I don't disagree with any of what you said. But if you are building a new house to the current building regulations (not necessarily passiv/passive) please investigate designed mechanical ventilation because even though you can purge ventilate with windows the only way to be sure you are getting sufficient air to all parts of the house is to design it to be that way. Modern houses that meet current building regulations need mechanical ventilation in my opinion*

*Incidentally, a new rule coming in next year will make mechanical ventilation mandatory in all houses with an air-tightness below 3 ach @ 50Pa - and I haven't seen a house built in years that has been above 3!

Shaunoc

Henley something or other. 5/7 kW. Memory has failed me. I have access to some felled trees and do my own cutting and chopping so not much of a cost to run bar my own time and initial tools outlay. Healthy enough pastime! We have it in corner facing diagonally in quite a large open plan. Works for us. Even thinking of a second small inset for sitting room in a couple of years...maybe longer, many other items on hit list

Ascot !

dellas1979

Thanks for all the replies thus far.

I suppose, am looking to know if I could get a stove without a chimney.

I asked archi about Stove pipe and he said for that Id still need the chimney (I thought it would be the stove, with a pipe going out of it through the wall).

Still confused!

sydthebeat

you can get a stove with a stainless steel flue, and depending on the location you want it, it may be possible for it to pass through teh wall behind the stove, so no chimney needed.


eg:
http://homefiresjersey.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/twinn_wall_01.jpg

runawaybishop

dellas1979 wrote: »

I asked archi about Stove pipe and he said for that Id still need the chimney

Weird, did he specify why?

dellas1979

sydthebeat wrote: »

you can get a stove with a stainless steel flue, and depending on the location you want it, it may be possible for it to pass through teh wall behind the stove, so no chimney needed.


eg:
http://homefiresjersey.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/twinn_wall_01.jpg

Youve described in the link exactly what I was thinking!

dellas1979

runawaybishop wrote: »

Weird, did he specify why?

That it would still need an outside air supply.

looksee

If you do end up getting a stove - the ones with the vent in the top that channels hot air into the room are very effective. Think about your hearth, the matt, rough finish stone slab ones look nice new but are a nightmare to keep tidy, you can't sweep/mop up the ash. I think I would seriously look at tiles the next time.

sydthebeat

dellas1979 wrote: »

That it would still need an outside air supply.

That can be included in the floor construction, no need for a chimney to provide it.

Effects

Shaunoc wrote: »

Henley something or other. 5/7 kW. Memory has failed me. I have access to some felled trees and do my own cutting and chopping so not much of a cost to run bar my own time and initial tools outlay. Healthy enough pastime!

Sounds like me! I've got a henley, and I have access to trees and do my own cutting.
One issue I found is the the seal on the stove isn't 100% airtight.
I put in an externally vented cooker extractor fan and I can't cook food if I have the stove on as it draws back into the room. Which isn't great.

Effects

dellas1979 wrote: »

I asked archi about Stove pipe and he said for that Id still need the chimney (I thought it would be the stove, with a pipe going out of it through the wall).

I've a flue that's single wall from the stove but then changes to double wall before it goes through the ceiling and roof to the outside. I wouldn't think you need a chimney. External air supply comes though the ground floor ceiling, my stove is on the first floor.

Effects

Here's a simple option with a decent TV and surround sound.

dellas1979

dellas1979 wrote: »

Youve described in the link exactly what I was thinking! http://homefiresjersey.com/wp-conten...nn_wall_01.jpg

Asked archi and apparently this costs much more than an actual masonry chimney.

Effects

dellas1979 wrote: »

Asked archi and apparently this costs much more than an actual masonry chimney.

I could be wrong but don't you still need a flue in a masonry chimney?
I'll pm you the costs of my flue components and installation.

dellas1979

Effects wrote: »

I could be wrong but don't you still need a flue in a masonry chimney?
I'll pm you the costs of my flue components and installation.

Thanks. Am totally confused!

The TV option is looking good!

Wartburg

Effects wrote: »

Sounds like me! I've got a henley, and I have access to trees and do my own cutting.
One issue I found is the the seal on the stove isn't 100% airtight.
I put in an externally vented cooker extractor fan and I can't cook food if I have the stove on as it draws back into the room. Which isn't great.

Interesting fact but not a surprise for myself by knowing the background of this particular "manufacturer". For the moment air tightness is not that common like electric cars easterly of the Great Wall.
An air tight stove in Germany needs to have an official approval, coming from the DIBt (German Centre of Competence for Construction). In this case, the stove with external air intake is independently tested for its complete air tightness. Only if you have this approval, you do not need any further strategy (e.g. the 160mm unblockable hole in the wall or the security switch for your cooker hood).

To give you an idea about prices, you might want to check this website which I found randomly because of the huge selection of stoves, they have https://www.ofen.edingershops.de/Kaminofen/Geprueft-nach-DIBt:::11_20947.html

ht9zni1gs28crp

'cosy' fires syndrome is built out of nostalgia when they existed in an era of cold, draughty and damp houses. Visions of everyone sitting around a fire is all well and good until you examine the reason everyone is sat there in the first place. With warm fronts and cold backs!

One less job to do in cleaning stove/fire, another job less to do in cutting wood, and your 'dusting' time inside the house is reduced to a minimal.

I would save the cash and heartache, really is no need with current building regulations. Trust the technology on the heating and MHRVC.

dellas1979

Well, I decided to build the chimney. And have asked builders to close off/make airtight, until such time Ive the funds to buy/install a stove.

Yes, its for asthetics really. But, in my eyes, you just cannot bate a fire for that nice warm fire feeling. Find it hypnotic.

covey09

iceax wrote: »

I put one in for my-build and guess what i can't lighting it, have to open windows just to light it ,

Just wondering do you have an external air vent for the stove?

Lumen

I think it's a bit of a mad decision putting a chimney in a new build.

Aside from a load of cold air running down into the middle of your building, as soon as you light the fire/stove the room will be too hot.

What are you going to do, open a window to cool it back down again?

My last house was a celtic tiger special that barely scraped a C rating and within about 10 minutes of putting the fire on the room was too hot.