Crate Training

wingnut32

I picked up a 12 week old Cavachon on Friday and we are in the process of training him. Im wondering if anyone can help me out with a few tips as I get the feeling we are giving him too much freedom.

In terms of a routine how long should be let out of the crate for? How long during the day should he be left in?

Hes doing really well at night, no accidents so far and goes straight away when let out. The rest of the day is a bit hit and miss as he will spend a lot of time out and goes randomly anywhere in the kitchen.

Thanks for any help

spockety

Are you bringing him out to the garden on a leash like clockwork to go to the toilet during the day? At least hourly, maybe even more at that age. That the crate is working for you overnight is the main thing.

muddypaws

During the day I would leave the crate open for him to go in and out as he chooses.

As previous poster says, you need to take him out during the day and lots of praise when he toilets outside. Usually I take a pup out straight after feeding, or drinking, after play and when they wake up.

DBB

Congratulations on your new family member! The crate is a management tool, to be used to manage where your new pup's bladder and bowel are at all times It needs to be used in a way that maximises the number of times you successfully get him outside to toilet, whilst minimising opportunities for accidents.
If he's out and about during the day, and you have even the slightest suspicion that he's due a toilet break but you just can't attend to him right now, stick him in the crate, closing him in... It's only for a few mins until you make yourself available to fully attend to bringing him out.
Once he's been out, and has toileted, you know he's pretty safe to remain out of the crate for a half hour-ish. So... Bring him out again after a half hour, and if you can't, then into the crate he goes until you can. Obviously, don't leave him hanging on for longer than a few minutes.
Bring him outside each time, staying with him. Wait quietly, and when you see him squat, coo softly at him. As he stands up out of the squat, it's party time! Big congrats and a tasty treat or two, then bring him back inside for another half hour.
The reason you wait til he's rising out of the squat is so you don't put him off in mid-flow, and you're very specifically reinforcing finishing toileting... Reinforcing him for feeling empty. I hope that makes sense!
With time, you'll realise that he doesn't seem to need to go every half hour, you can start to push the intervals to, say, 45 mins, to an hour etc... This might happen very quickly. The fact that he can make it through the night is fantastic, but don't push your luck here! I'd be getting up a bit earlier than normal to make sure he's not sitting in his crate with his legs crossed!

em_cat

I’ve never had a reason to crate train & my mind boggles as to how it has become so popular. I get the necessity if your a breeder or maybe showing but doing it to your family pet I find the idea a bit cruel.

I’ve never had problems house training my pups as I followed the principal that you go out 10 min after eating, playing, napping. We also train the difference between potty walk verses exercise walk.

Since we live in an apartment Mr C learnd if he sat right next to or in front of a door it was a sign he needed to go out. Overtime I figured that if he had his structured potty break every 4 hours from waking time in addition to his excercise walks he slept the whole night without accidents.

We had to be really structured at first bc he had learned marking before we adopted him so I had to work to change this.

Mr C is fastidious with his house training, so if he accidents then we know there is a reason & a possible trip to the vet.

However Mr C is trained to use his travel bag on cue, but only in case of evacuation or if we fly.

To me training a dog to understand a solid stay/ settle is better than locking my pet into a crate for any reason.

DBB

A dog shouldn't be locked into a crate other than for short periods of time. They are not meant to be prisons, and they have revolutionised success with toilet training for countless owners who are not fluent in general training... All without any dogs being harmed in the process.
I've crate trained a LOT of pups, and adult dogs... Each and every one of those dogs bounced into the crate at any opportunity, they loved it so much. If it was cruel, I can't see a dog wilfully and enthusiastically going into it with no prompting. It makes them feel secure and reduces anxiety in many dogs.
I take exception to the suggestion that crates are cruel, because it means I've been cruel. Pretty much anyone I've met who suggests they're cruel, doesn't actually understand how they're meant to be used. They're no more cruel than a travel crate/bag.

beveragelady

em_cat wrote: »

I’ve never had a reason to crate train & my mind boggles as to how it has become so popular. I get the necessity if your a breeder or maybe showing but doing it to your family pet I find the idea a bit cruel.

I’ve never had problems house training my pups as I followed the principal that you go out 10 min after eating, playing, napping. We also train the difference between potty walk verses exercise walk.

Since we live in an apartment Mr C learnd if he sat right next to or in front of a door it was a sign he needed to go out. Overtime I figured that if he had his structured potty break every 4 hours from waking time in addition to his excercise walks he slept the whole night without accidents.

We had to be really structured at first bc he had learned marking before we adopted him so I had to work to change this.

Mr C is fastidious with his house training, so if he accidents then we know there is a reason & a possible trip to the vet.

However Mr C is trained to use his travel bag on cue, but only in case of evacuation or if we fly.

To me training a dog to understand a solid stay/ settle is better than locking my pet into a crate for any reason.

My thoughts exactly! I have given it a lot of thought but I just don't get what problem a crate is solving. I have never had a dog-difficulty where I thought what was needed was a big box.
Assuming there are reasons for crate training, I still can't help thinking they're surely too easily used to contain a dog when owners lose interest in proper training. I imagine there are plenty of once-adorable designer crossbreeds who have become inconvenient and spend a lot of time behind bars.
I felt terrible when my rats had to spend time in the cage, I can't imagine locking up the dogs!

em_cat

DBB wrote: »

A dog shouldn't be locked into a crate other than for short periods of time. They are not meant to be prisons, and they have revolutionised success with toilet training for countless owners who are not fluent in general training... All without any dogs being harmed in the process.
I've crate trained a LOT of pups, and adult dogs... Each and every one of those dogs bounced into the crate at any opportunity, they loved it so much. If it was cruel, I can't see a dog wilfully and enthusiastically going into it with no prompting. It makes them feel secure and reduces anxiety in many dogs.
I take exception to the suggestion that crates are cruel, because it means I've been cruel. Pretty much anyone I've met who suggests they're cruel, doesn't actually understand how they're meant to be used. They're no more cruel than a travel crate/bag.

That’s why I said I can see the necessity if your a breeder or show as you may need to be in control of several dogs at the same time. In those circumstances I don’t think of it as being cruel. I do understand how they are meant to be used, I just don’t agree it’s necessary with the family pet.

In terms of house training this is the way I was taught as a young child & has always worked without fail. I thought if someone got a puppy from a reputable breeder then the puppy would be house trained or at least that is what I’ve seen in the adverts on champ dogs, so I could be wrong.

I agree that for novices it may difficult, but crate training isn’t necessary for house training. The way I teach settle means it’s associated with a particular mat so it doesn’t matter where the mat is Mr C will settle on it until he’s released.

If he has to be kennelled at the vets he goes with his mat & they have the command & release.

I believe the rise in popularity is because people get dogs when they work all day & want the easy way but they also don’t know how train their pup not to chew. Never had a problem with that either.

Of course all of the above can go out the window if your dealing with straight from the pound or rescue.

And as I thought you where a breeder or at least someone with multiple pets and possible species I can understand the need to use crates & don’t see that it is cruel.

I just think it’s cruel when it’s with a family pet, which I assume the OP is trying to train, thinks it’s necessary. With a crate the person always has control on the containment & if you settle train you build the confidence & trust to remain in 1 place until released.

muddypaws

em_cat wrote: »

I’ve never had a reason to crate train & my mind boggles as to how it has become so popular. I get the necessity if your a breeder or maybe showing but doing it to your family pet I find the idea a bit cruel.

I’ve never had problems house training my pups as I followed the principal that you go out 10 min after eating, playing, napping. We also train the difference between potty walk verses exercise walk.

Since we live in an apartment Mr C learnd if he sat right next to or in front of a door it was a sign he needed to go out. Overtime I figured that if he had his structured potty break every 4 hours from waking time in addition to his excercise walks he slept the whole night without accidents.

We had to be really structured at first bc he had learned marking before we adopted him so I had to work to change this.

Mr C is fastidious with his house training, so if he accidents then we know there is a reason & a possible trip to the vet.

However Mr C is trained to use his travel bag on cue, but only in case of evacuation or if we fly.

To me training a dog to understand a solid stay/ settle is better than locking my pet into a crate for any reason.

A breeder or if you show? Every person that I know who shows, consider their dogs to be family pets.

Has Mr C never had to have an overnight stay in the vet? Or even a few hours? My dogs, who are all pets, are crate trained, so they cope very well with vet stays. I have 2 crates with the doors open that the dogs go into when they want, there are currently 2 dogs asleep in them - with the doors wide open.

em_cat

muddypaws wrote: »

A breeder or if you show? Every person that I know who shows, consider their dogs to be family pets.

Has Mr C never had to have an overnight stay in the vet? Or even a few hours? My dogs, who are all pets, are crate trained, so they cope very well with vet stays. I have 2 crates with the doors open that the dogs go into when they want, there are currently 2 dogs asleep in them - with the doors wide open.

Yes he had to stay overnight & is perfectly fine too. Although I understand the purpose of using crates I just don’t agree with it being the go to method for new puppy parents.

I’ve no doubt that you care for your dogs as pets too & I believe you crate because you think it’s the best for them & you are also an experienced dog owner so you would know. I’m not trying to judge, it’s just that the rise in popularity in crate vs no crate had a lot more to do with convenience & accidents & destructive behaviour than making sure their dog is comfy in vet kennels.

DBB

I thought if someone got a puppy from a reputable breeder then the puppy would be house trained or at least that is what I’ve seen in the adverts on champ dogs, so I could be wrong.

Anyone advertising an 8-12 week old pup (for this is the most common age range for pups to be sold) as house trained is, at best, stretching credibility. It's not impossible to be at best "almost there" with 12 week old pups, but a nigh-on impossibility with younger pups.

And as I thought you where a breeder or at least someone with multiple pets and possible species I can understand the need to use crates & don’t see that it is cruel.

Not sure where you got that impression, maybe you're mixing me up with someone else. I've never bred a dog in my life. I have two pet dogs. And poultry... Including new goslings who absolutely love the crate they sleep in at night.
What I do, is (a) I have fostered many, many pups, and adult dogs, and (b) I help owners to train their pet dogs.
I've trained lots of pups without a crate too. But having seen both sides, the crate has proven itself to be an excellent tool for house training and puppy management. It makes things hugely easier for novice owners principally because it focuses them, gets them really well tuned in to their pup's toilet routine. Crate training also helps people with pups whose breeders have not got them to the "nearly there" stage, or people with dogs/pups that are inveterate chewers. The reality of living with either is challenging, let me assure you... And that's just me, someone who knows what they're at.

I just think it’s cruel when it’s with a family pet, which I assume the OP is trying to train, thinks it’s necessary. With a crate the person always has control on the containment & if you settle train you build the confidence & trust to remain in 1 place until released.

Crate training is essentially no different. You just have a myopic view of it perhaps because it appears you've never tried it. Like I said above, every dog I've owned, fostered and trained has loved their crate... Yes, they built confidence and trust to remain in one place until released too. Same job, different tools.

That all said, I understand that there's a lot of crate mis-use particularly in the US... Owners living in apartments and leaving their dogs crated all day whilst they're at work. This is gross abuse of what the crate is meant for. This is not something I've come across in Ireland... With one or two exceptions which were "rescues" with a "stack em high" approach to husbandry, one of which has since been shut down for cruelty.

DBB

muddypaws wrote: »

My dogs, who are all pets, are crate trained, so they cope very well with vet stays. I have 2 crates with the doors open that the dogs go into when they want, there are currently 2 dogs asleep in them - with the doors wide open.

Of my own dogs who've been crate trained, they either shook with excitement when a crate was being assembled, jumping into it before I even had it all clicked into place, or where their crate or playpen had been removed, they wouldn't sleep until their bedroom was restored!
Locking them in is for very short spells only, as described in my first post in this thread. I'd admire anyone who could get a full-bladdered 8 week old pup to target and stay on their bed whilst they turned their back for a moment to attend to something else, because that's what happens to people in real life!

kylith

Finn lives his crate and goes in there to chill. The door is only closed while the humans eat dinner or when we have dog-phobic visitors over.

tk123

My two love their crate! The first thing Bailey does when he gets up apart from going out to the loo is get into the crate and snooze If your dog is ever injured/has surgery and needs to be confined for 8-12 weeks - trust me having them already crate trained makes a huge difference to everyone involved. Also if you have a dog who is any way nervous the crate is a den for them to feel safe eg Bailey will go into it when fireworks are going off or if he doesn’t want to go out. He use to squeeze himself into the puppy crate when Lucy was small lol. When I was putting the big crate up last year in prep for Baileys surgery they dove into it and Lucy stayed in it all day for the few days he was at the vets

I have to say I’ve had some of the same reactions about crates and it’s always been from somebody who’s never used one

Labcoats and Running Shoes

Our dog used to get serious separation anxiety when we would leave the house. She wouldn't howl or bark or anything like that, instead she used to eat the wood around the door frame into the kitchen, go counter surfing and pull literally anything left up there off, tear open bins, etc. She just HATED being left to her own devices so mum and dad would pop her in the crate with a tasty stuffed Kong and she'd be happy as larry for a few hours. She's mellowed quite a bit since and can easily be left free (although any tasty treats need to be placed in closed cupboards and all bedroom doors secured!). The crate was invaluable for giving her that security and for also making sure she didn't hurt herself eating things that she shouldn't, we never needed it for toilet training this particular dog.

volchitsa

em_cat wrote: »

Yes he had to stay overnight & is perfectly fine too. Although I understand the purpose of using crates I just don’t agree with it being the go to method for new puppy parents.

I’ve no doubt that you care for your dogs as pets too & I believe you crate because you think it’s the best for them & you are also an experienced dog owner so you would know. I’m not trying to judge, it’s just that the rise in popularity in crate vs no crate had a lot more to do with convenience & accidents & destructive behaviour than making sure their dog is comfy in vet kennels.

As an ex-new-dog-owner I get exactly what you mean here - I was really surprised at the idea of crate training, and when I looked into it I found all sorts of things on Internet, including people giving a timetable for crate training that came down to letting the puppy out for worryingly short times to toilet, feed and play. They seemed to be US sites that were about leading your dog gradually up to spending all day in a crate until the owner came home. It's not very clear from them whether this was a temporary measure until the pup stopped being destructive and could be left in a beautiful home all day without chewing furniture or whether it was a way to keep dogs all their lives.

Anyway, with the experience I now have, where the crate is really just her bedroom and is never locked, I'm not sure that as a long term object, there's a lot of point in buying one if you don't really like the idea as long as you have somewhere else, like a back kitchen and a garden, to put the dog on the rare times you need him/her out of the way.

If your home is open plan or very small then yes definitely. It's not a punishment for the dog if done carefully, but otoh because it's not necessary to keep a well socialised dog locked in regularly anyway, I'm not at all sure she'd actually accept being locked in if it came to it. She likes her crate, but she gets fed up if locked in. Like being locked in your room really.

We use it as a table for our coffee cups when watching TV, other than that a dog basket would be just as useful.

gozunda

DBB wrote:

I have two pet dogs. And poultry... Including new goslings who absolutely love the crate they sleep in at night.

Hey congrats on the new additions. Havn't came across gosslings been crate trained before .

First time goose wrangling?

muddypaws

em_cat wrote: »

I’ve no doubt that you care for your dogs as pets too

This has me confused. Too usually means as well as, my dogs ARE pets. Or do you think I'm a breeder who owns a conglomerate of dog food companies?

I always advise puppy owners to crate train and we also do muzzle training in puppy classes, all tools that owners can use if they need to. My philosophy is that it is better to get a dog comfortable with something in a stress free environment so that if they are ever necessary when the dog is stressed, it will be one less thing for them to worry about. We go away a lot, the dogs travel in crates in the van. We've been to France twice and the dogs were relaxed in their crates for the ferry crossing - they didn't know they were on a boat, they were just in their beds and then on a new beach that smelt different. Unlike some of the dogs that barked the whole time in the on board kennels, the poor things were very stressed.

I did also used to think that cages were cruel but they have been so useful. My Mum unfortunately developed dementia and when she'd visit, she would sometimes be scared of the dogs. Being able to put them into their crates made her feel safe. Also useful if you have small children, as a safe, quiet place for the dog to escape to.

DBB

gozunda wrote: »

Hey congrats on the new additions. Havn't came across gosslings been crate trained before .

First time goose wrangling?

Lol... They're great, aren't they? They remind me of dogs. These are our first home-bred gozzies, having dipped our toes into goosey waters a year ago.
The gozzies are in a crate in the shed with the electric hen for a few hours overnight as an extra protection against predators... Shed isn't 100% finished yet.
More on the way in the next couple of weeks

volchitsa

muddypaws wrote: »

This has me confused. Too usually means as well as, my dogs ARE pets. Or do you think I'm a breeder who owns a conglomerate of dog food companies?

I always advise puppy owners to crate train and we also do muzzle training in puppy classes, all tools that owners can use if they need to. My philosophy is that it is better to get a dog comfortable with something in a stress free environment so that if they are ever necessary when the dog is stressed, it will be one less thing for them to worry about. We go away a lot, the dogs travel in crates in the van. We've been to France twice and the dogs were relaxed in their crates for the ferry crossing - they didn't know they were on a boat, they were just in their beds and then on a new beach that smelt different. Unlike some of the dogs that barked the whole time in the on board kennels, the poor things were very stressed.

I did also used to think that cages were cruel but they have been so useful. My Mum unfortunately developed dementia and when she'd visit, she would sometimes be scared of the dogs. Being able to put them into their crates made her feel safe. Also useful if you have small children, as a safe, quiet place for the dog to escape to.

Yes, definitely if you're travelling a lot I think the crate is great for bringing their home with them. It wouldn't have been practical for us (and maybe not even possible) to bring her crate up to put inside the ferry's kennels, so we had to choose - we decided not to leave her overnight in the car but to use their kennels and visit regularly. She was terrified on the way over, I think we'd never heard her whining like that before! Though she was much better on the way back.

But I know some dogs are a lot more nervous of anything new, and for them their own crate when away from home is probably invaluable. I suppose it depends on the dog itself, and it's hard to know when they're small how much they will need that comfort of their own crate when they're older.

But it's definitely not cruel, as long as people don't present it as a place to keep a dog all day long - which was the point I originally wanted to make. Some internet sites do.

borderlinemeath

Anybody who I've ever conversed with that considers crates cruel or that they would never use one for their dog - has never had any experience of them or the benefits they actually give your dog. As has been stated already, at some point in your dogs life, they may well need to be contained, such as in a vets surgery, or in a groomers, waiting to be groomed, or waiting for their owner to collect them. Or if your dog is recovering from surgery or an injury, or travelling.I'd far rather my dogs had the coping mechanism to be familiar and comfortable with being contained. All my dogs love crates, my oldest dog will get into my daughters tent as a crate alternative for some R&R.

Graces7

DBB wrote: »

Lol... They're great, aren't they? They remind me of dogs. These are our first home-bred gozzies, having dipped our toes into goosey waters a year ago.
The gozzies are in a crate in the shed with the electric hen for a few hours overnight as an extra protection against predators... Shed isn't 100% finished yet.
More on the way in the next couple of weeks

I once raised a gosling. The goose did not want to know and for a while a 'clucking" hen sat neatly on the one surviving egg.
Then I took over. Poor Gozzle had an identity crisis. Wanted to be a hen but they insisted on sleeping in the rafters and leaving him and the geese did not want to know . When I appeared at the door he would run and honk and flap to me .
These were Chinese crested geese and finally I was able to arrange a marriage with a goose of that breed on another island ....

gozunda

DBB wrote: »

Lol... They're great, aren't they? They remind me of dogs. These are our first home-bred gozzies, having dipped our toes into goosey waters a year ago.
The gozzies are in a crate in the shed with the electric hen for a few hours overnight as an extra protection against predators... Shed isn't 100% finished yet.
More on the way in the next couple of weeks

Always preferred waterfowl tbh. Imo geese are straight out of Jurasic Park. They will mate for life and are very caring of their partners. As grazers they are brillant - you won't have a single dandelion in the place. I have kept geese for nearly 20 years and love to see them out doing their thing and bossing everyone else! The poor dog is terrified of them

Graces7

gozunda wrote: »

Always preferred waterfowl tbh. Imo geese are straight out of Jurasic Park. They will mate for life and are very caring of their partners. As grazers they are brillant for the lawn - you won't have a single dandelion in the place. I have kept geese for nearly 20 years and love to see them out doing their thing and bossing everyone else! The poor dog is terrified of them

Watching Gozzle, I came to the conclusion that geese have vision issues. They see things moving in the distance but cannot make out what they are, if they ar hostile or not, so they charge

Hence they make excellent watch-"dogs" and they are terrifying when they charge like that, wings out, honking,
If you stand still? Gozzle used to run right into my legs if I stood still. Fascinating.

SillyMangoX

I love a crate trained dog, I can always tell the different. It means the difference between your dog snoozing happily after their spa day in the groomers, as opposed to barking, whining and getting worked up. I don’t have them in there long, just for the amount of time it takes me to clean up or for the owners to come back; but having them used to it makes a world of difference.
It was also the most useful thing in the world for my old cat Dude. Literally meant the difference between life and death for him. If he wasn’t crate trained as a kitten, his recovery after his accident would have been a hell of a lot more stressful. It would have meant that in the latter part of his life, we wouldn’t have been able to confine him when we weren’t home because of his incontinance and my parents wouldn’t have kept him around. It meant every time he went to the vets, he snoozed happily in there instead of shutting down or freaking out.
It may seem cruel to people who have never crate trained before, but the limitless benefits definitely outweigh the couple of days whining getting them used to it!