notice of termination required

beaufoy

I own an apartment in dublin which has been rented to the same tenants for several years. It looks like I might need the apartment for me and my wife to live in from July ...how much notice do i have to give to the tenants, do i have to send a recorded delivery letter

dudara

Depends on how they have been in place. Details in link

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html#la1b6d

As you will be terminating the tenancy based the need for personal occupation, you need to do this 100% by the book. More information on the RTB website

beaufoy

I can see that the notice can be reduced if the land lord needs the apartment to live in, but am i correct in assuming i can just give the 28 day notice

GGTrek

beaufoy wrote: »

I can see that the notice can be reduced if the land lord needs the apartment to live in, but am i correct in assuming i can just give the 28 day notice

Several years definitely does not allow a 28 days notice, please look at the law directly:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/42/section/31/enacted/en/html#sec31
I have serious doubts you will be able to move in July unless you reach an amicable agreement with the tenants. Best of luck

GGTrek

beaufoy wrote: »

I own an apartment in dublin which has been rented to the same tenants for several years. It looks like I might need the apartment for me and my wife to live in from July ...how much notice do i have to give to the tenants, do i have to send a recorded delivery letter

This is the notice you will need: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/images/uploads/Disputes/Sample%20Notice%20of%20Termination%20-%20Own%20or%20Family%20Member%20Use.docx
You will need to go to a solicitor for the statutory declaration and yes you can send the notice by recorded delivery, but I can tell you that nothing is safer than a notice delivered in person with a witness in case you have problems down the line. In an old thread I explained a failsafe method to serve a notice of termination.

dudara

beaufoy wrote: »

I can see that the notice can be reduced if the land lord needs the apartment to live in, but am i correct in assuming i can just give the 28 day notice

Where are you seeing that? My understanding is that you still have to give the appropriate notice for the amount of time they have been there.

4ensic15

beaufoy wrote: »

I can see that the notice can be reduced if the land lord needs the apartment to live in, but am i correct in assuming i can just give the 28 day notice

There are only 2 situations in which a notice period can be reduced. Antisocial behaviour and breach of condition. You need to get professional advice and have an experienced professional draft the notice for you.

beaufoy

A few years ago my tenant admitted to sub letting my apartment whilst he went on holiday, he apologized for doing so without obtaining my permission. Since then he has promised not to sublet again, and signed rental agreements to said effect. Now I suspect he is subletting again...if I can obtain evidence that he is subletting can I terminate the rental contract with 28 day notice

4ensic15

beaufoy wrote: »

A few years ago my tenant admitted to sub letting my apartment whilst he went on holiday, he apologized for doing so without obtaining my permission. Since then he has promised not to sublet again, and signed rental agreements to said effect. Now I suspect he is subletting again...if I can obtain evidence that he is subletting can I terminate the rental contract with 28 day notice

You have to give him notice and tell him to cease and desist within a reasonable time. Only if he fails to stop the sub-letting can you terminate. Like I said, you need to get proper legal advice.

beaufoy

4ensic15 wrote: »

You have to give him notice and tell him to cease and desist within a reasonable time. Only if he fails to stop the sub-letting can you terminate. Like I said, you need to get proper legal advice.

He has sublet before and told not to do so again. Therefore if he is caught doing so again then according to you he has qualified as a persistent offender

dudara

You still have to serve appropriate notice to desist followed by a notice of termination if he fails to do so. Get advice and follow the process correctly.

4ensic15

beaufoy wrote: »

He has sublet before and told not to do so again. Therefore if he is caught doing so again then according to you he has qualified as a persistent offender

You are acting as your own counsellor. Most unwise. You give him notice without a warning and he will be off to the RTB. Good luck with the case.

beaufoy

4ensic15 wrote: »

You are acting as your own counsellor. Most unwise. You give him notice without a warning and he will be off to the RTB. Good luck with the case.

I think you are a solicitor they always say good luck , but not with enough sincerity

GGTrek

beaufoy wrote: »

4ensic15 wrote: »

You are acting as your own counsellor. Most unwise. You give him notice without a warning and he will be off to the RTB. Good luck with the case.

I think you are a solicitor they always say good luck , but not with enough sincerity

I believe that he gave you a realistic scenario. You are trying to cut corners, in addition expect overholding and you will have to take the case to the RTB. Overholding has become the tenants' national sport in Ireland.

I shall also give you some background on a real s..y tenant I finally managed to kick out this year after he breached almost every kind of lease rule except paying rent. Among other breaches he had been subletting or having long term "guests" at the flat on and off for almost three years. He got several warnings, but no solid proof to issue a termination notice and go to RTB where you need photos/videos/witnesses to prove the subletting or the extra unauthorized long term guests (good luck with other tenants going to an adjudication as witnesses). In the past year I visited the bulding and noticed he was not there anymore, but two of his "friends" were there. I had already planned to install CCTV in the common areas and through CCTV I finally nailed him and his friends (and also the other long term tenant who was still there, as I said I now do not accept long term tenants anymore since they believe they own the place they rent and do as they like without paying the consequences that an owner would). I issued a notice of termination, he and his friends overheld, I went to adjudication: 2 months of video evidence presented showing the same people coming in and out of the apartment, he and his "friends" were screwed, but still the Threshold joker they had called to help them was babbling and lying at which point the adjudicator said it was better for him to accept an agreement to go quickly which I did not want since he owed several penalties for his behaviour, but the biased adjudicator told to the whole room that the tenant could have appealed in such case and becoming a de facto legal advisor of the tenant: this is not the first time it has happened in the adjudications I have attended. So as you can see, proving illegal subletting or overoccupation above what is allowed by the tenancy agreement is a very difficult task, unlike the termination for landlord/family moving in where you will have to wait more time, but once the formalities are well prepared (good suggestion to go to a solicitor specialized in tenancy law), the adjudicator will have to accept it without much discussion if you really have reason to move in.

Remember that the termination based on landlord/family moving in has never been successfully challenged even by some of the worst litigant tenants in Ireland: Canty and Dunivya were evicted (the second one still in the process for the third time at the High Court) with family of the landlord moving in.

Nowadays if you are charging below market rent, the chance that the tenant will overhold is very high (in my small sample it was more than 60%): very few tenants will want to loose their govvie subsidy paid for by the landlord even if it means breaching the law (since in Ireland if tenants breach the RTA it has almost no financial consequences on them)

4ensic15

beaufoy wrote: »

I think you are a solicitor they always say good luck , but not with enough sincerity

Think what you like. I have been to many RTB hearings. A landlord won't win unless the paperwork is perfect and the law is argued cogently.

beaufoy

GGTrek wrote: »

I believe that he gave you a realistic scenario. You are trying to cut corners, in addition expect overholding and you will have to take the case to the RTB. Overholding has become the tenants' national sport in Ireland.

I shall also give you some background on a real s..y tenant I finally managed to kick out this year after he breached almost every kind of lease rule except paying rent. Among other breaches he had been subletting or having long term "guests" at the flat on and off for almost three years. He got several warnings, but no solid proof to issue a termination notice and go to RTB where you need photos/videos/witnesses to prove the subletting or the extra unauthorized long term guests (good luck with other tenants going to an adjudication as witnesses). In the past year I visited the bulding and noticed he was not there anymore, but two of his "friends" were there. I had already planned to install CCTV in the common areas and through CCTV I finally nailed him and his friends (and also the other long term tenant who was still there, as I said I now do not accept long term tenants anymore since they believe they own the place they rent and do as they like without paying the consequences that an owner would). I issued a notice of termination, he and his friends overheld, I went to adjudication: 2 months of video evidence presented showing the same people coming in and out of the apartment, he and his "friends" were screwed, but still the Threshold joker they had called to help them was babbling and lying at which point the adjudicator said it was better for him to accept an agreement to go quickly which I did not want since he owed several penalties for his behaviour, but the biased adjudicator told to the whole room that the tenant could have appealed in such case and becoming a de facto legal advisor of the tenant: this is not the first time it has happened in the adjudications I have attended. So as you can see, proving illegal subletting or overoccupation above what is allowed by the tenancy agreement is a very difficult task, unlike the termination for landlord/family moving in where you will have to wait more time, but once the formalities are well prepared (good suggestion to go to a solicitor specialized in tenancy law), the adjudicator will have to accept it without much discussion if you really have reason to move in.

Remember that the termination based on landlord/family moving in has never been successfully challenged even by some of the worst litigant tenants in Ireland: Canty and Dunivya were evicted (the second one still in the process for the third time at the High Court) with family of the landlord moving in.

Nowadays if you are charging below market rent, the chance that the tenant will overhold is very high (in my small sample it was more than 60%): very few tenants will want to loose their govvie subsidy paid for by the landlord even if it means breaching the law (since in Ireland if tenants breach the RTA it has almost no financial consequences on them)

very good and informative answer

beaufoy

4ensic15 wrote: »

Think what you like. I have been to many RTB hearings. A landlord won't win unless the paperwork is perfect and the law is argued cogently.

two more pieces of evidence which points to you being a solicitor
1) you have been to many rtb hearings
2) very few normal people use the word cogently, but solicitors use it all the time

4ensic15

beaufoy wrote: »

two more pieces of evidence which points to you being a solicitor
1) you have been to many rtb hearings
2) very few normal people use the word cogently, but solicitors use it all the time

Very logical. Solicitors use a word, therefore anyone who uses that word must be a solicitor. Some small number of solicitors go to RTB hearings so therefore anyone who has been to many RTB hearings must be a solicitor.
Aristotle would be proud.

C3PO

Whether 4ensic15 is a solicitor or not is really irrelevant! His/her advice in relation to your query is sound - attempt short cuts in this area at your peril ... in the current climate you would likely regret it!

beaufoy

Ok Sorry for calling someone a solicitor
Now back to the subject at hand, I need my own apartment to live in, and I have put forward plans a and b to achieve this
A) I give the tenant/s notice he/they have to vacate because I am emigrating to Ireland and need somewhere to live....Opinions received suggest in theory I have the right to live in my own apartment, but in practice the tenant has more right to live in my apartment than i do.
The tenant has already been caught sub letting without permission, and I suspect he is still doing so, therefore all I have to do is gain evidence that he is subletting, and then I am entitled to give him one month notice to vacate on the grounds he broke a double stated clause in the contract he signed.... Opinions received suggest in theory the law/rules are on my side, but in practice I will have difficulty in getting the tenant to vacate using option B

Now we come to plan C which is new, and as far as my opinion is concerned very good
Plan C is a mixture of plans a and b with a little bit of something extra, and runs as follows:
Tell the tenant/s that i have a good case to terminate their lease on the grounds that
1) I need somewhere to live
2) I have evidence that subletting has/is taking place.

However, I am a very nice person and I would prefer if the tenant/s leave voluntarily. Therefore I would be willing to pay the tenant/s a cash settlement to leave my apartment

pc7

Can you ring the tenant, explain you will be moving back and written notice will follow, that you need the apartment in 7 weeks (say start of July). You say they've been there several years, can you be more specific as to the length they are in place? Say you would be willing to let them stay until you are due back and are willing to compensate them for this inconvenience of incorrect notice but can they work with you? You can then guage by their response how to proceed, if its a firm no, then issue correct notice period and use your cash for air B&B or something similar to tie you over.

Graham

Mod Note:

stop the guess-the-occupation games please folks.

Beaufoy/4ensic, quit taking swipes at each other.