Public sector - New Entrant Pay Grade

Aces2018

Hi,

I'm desperate for advice.
I have just been offered my Dream Job in a 'couldn't be better' location.
The only problem is that it will be a 15k pay drop.

As a new entrant to the public service at Administrative Officer Grade I, I have been offered, what is my mind a pretty awful salary.

Can I negotiate the salary ?
I am coming from Private industry and yes the money is good but the hours and commute are killing me.
A pay drop of 15k will mean i'll be back on the same salary as when I left college 10yrs ago.
Any advice?

RockDesk

Aces2018 wrote: »

Hi,

Can I negotiate the salary ?

No.

Hitman3000

Aces2018 wrote:

Can I negotiate the salary ? I am coming from Private industry and yes the money is good but the hours and commute are killing me. A pay drop of 15k will mean i'll be back on the same salary as when I left college 10yrs ago. Any advice?

Short answer no. Security comes with a price tag.

Jimbob1977

The increments and the chances of promotion might put you on a similar salary footing to the private sector in a number of years.

If you are willing to play the long game, you could make it work. If a €15k chop is unsustainable, then it's not for you

Aces2018

Ok - Thanks a million for the quick - reply. I was expecting that my position may not be negotiable.

So could you explain to me how the salary grade system works?
Bearing in mind I am coming from Private sector. Here everything is negotiable.

For example when does salary review happen and how do you increase your pay grade?

What other non- monetary benefits would I get?
Is the pension as good as it used to be?

I really appreciate all the help
thanks a million again.

Jimbob1977

I don't work in the Public Sector, but I believe you are given an annual salary increment until you hit the maximum cap for that grade.

For example, you might enter at €30k. There might be eight increments of €1k each. In eight years you would be on €38k and never any more.

Promotion would put you on a new scale. From what I can see, promotions are done by formal transparent processes. There's no taps on the shoulder to say that you've been picked for a promotion.

Then you'd enter that scale and get the increments.

Have a gander at this. You'd get better insight from a public sector employee than me

http://www.impact.ie/your-sector/public-sector/civil-service/civil-service-salary-scales/civil-servcie-salary-scales-2017-general-service-grades-full-prsi/

Halloween Jack

Aces2018 wrote: »

Ok - Thanks a million for the quick - reply. I was expecting that my position may not be negotiable.

So could you explain to me how the salary grade system works?
Bearing in mind I am coming from Private sector. Here everything is negotiable.

For example when does salary review happen and how do you increase your pay grade?

What other non- monetary benefits would I get?
Is the pension as good as it used to be?

I really appreciate all the help
thanks a million again.

Annual increments are granted provided you perform to a ‘satisfactory’ level which you won’t have any problem in doing. The AO increments are around 3k per annum.

The age profile in the civil service is pretty old with a huge amount of retirements, so there should (contingent on continued economic growth etc) be plenty of opportunities to advance to AP over the next few years.

Starting salary for AP Is around 65k iirc

georgewickstaff

Don't forget pension levy. Will reduce salary even more

Sir Ophiuchus

A starting AO makes about €950 per two weeks, after taxes and deductions.

The AO increment scale is currently:

31,221 – 33,575 – 34,247 – 37,194 – 40,967 – 43,838 – 46,711 – 49,593 – 52,466 – 55,329 – 57,314 (after 3 years) – 59,294 (after another 3)

(Actually it's a few percent higher, but I don't have the most recent one to hand. Add a couple hundred to those numbers.)

So you start at €31k. Each year if you receive a Satisfactory performance review and don't have egregious amounts of sick leave you move one point up on the scale. So after 5 years you'd be at ~€44k.

This doesn't change unless you're promoted, in which case you start at the bottom of the relevant new scale (unless you'd be above it, in which case they slot you in at an equivalent point on the new scale).

No bonuses.

The pension is literally half as good as it used to be. People used to get half their *final* salary as their pension, now it works out that you get half your *career average* salary. (Also that's presuming 40 years of service, which is unlikely.)

Riskymove

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

A starting AO makes about €950 per two weeks, after taxes and deductions.

that is AO in civil service

I am not clear if it is that or AO in a local authority that OP is talking about

Sir Ophiuchus

Fair point.

uck51js9zml2yt

Riskymove wrote: »

that is AO in civil service

I am not clear if it is that or AO in a local authority that OP is talking about

AGS comes under civil service.

Riskymove

Colton Easy Eggshell wrote: »

AGS comes under civil service.

Who mentioned AGS?

uck51js9zml2yt

Riskymove wrote: »

Who mentioned AGS?

Could have sworn he mentioned Garda station:D

quad_red

Aces2018 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm desperate for advice.
I have just been offered my Dream Job in a 'couldn't be better' location.
The only problem is that it will be a 15k pay drop.

As a new entrant to the public service at Administrative Officer Grade I, I have been offered, what is my mind a pretty awful salary.

Can I negotiate the salary ?
I am coming from Private industry and yes the money is good but the hours and commute are killing me.
A pay drop of 15k will mean i'll be back on the same salary as when I left college 10yrs ago.
Any advice?

I’m in a pretty much identical situation (except it’s an 18k drop). I gave it a push on salary anyway to see if I could be started off the bottom of the scale. Didn’t work.

I’m starting next week as AO and am going to smash it and aim for promotion as fast as I possibly can.

But money wise it’s going to be a grim few years. 31k for a job like this is ridiculous.

mad m

To Quad_red and OP.

Loads of people are retiring from the PS every week. In DCC PS there is roughly 3000 working, out of that 3k only 145 are under 45. Do the maths. People retire people get promoted into their positions. Keep the head down, keep your nose clean and learn from others in there, go for any promotion that might suit you.

Good luck with it.

Ravelleman

quad_red wrote: »

31k for a job like this is ridiculous.

Out of curiosity, what do you expect from the job?

In any case, your strategy is a good one. The opportunities are there.

Squatter

quad_red wrote: »

I’m in a pretty much identical situation (except it’s an 18k drop). I gave it a push on salary anyway to see if I could be started off the bottom of the scale. Didn’t work.

I’m starting next week as AO and am going to smash it and aim for promotion as fast as I possibly can.

But money wise it’s going to be a grim few years. 31k for a job like this is ridiculous.

You need to bear in mind that no one is forcing you to take the job, it's entirely your call. You applied for it - presumably having first checked the pay on offer - did the qualifying tests/interviews and managed to get onto the panel - well done. Only then do you appear to have decided that your new pay scale is "ridiculous" - who the hell do you think you are with an attitude like that?

If you don't like the salary scale then you shouldn't have applied for the job in the first place and you are completely free to turn it down and it'll be offered to the next candidate on the panel, there's no shortage of well qualified people who would be delighted to get a starting salary of 31K.

gerrykeegan

One thing to keep in mind. The unions are sitting down this Friday to talk about pay equalisation. It may well happen next year but definitely within two years. That's 2 points on the scale.The pay equalisation will be worth 6k to me.im an AO

Aces2018

Thanks All.
The position I'm going for is at the administrative support level in a university. I knew when applying that I might have to take a salary cut.
I just didn't understand the PS pay grade thing. I never thought the pay gap between public and private was so large.
So just one more question,

What is the pension levy thing?

Aces2018

you appear to have decided that your new pay scale is "ridiculous" - who the hell do you think you are with an attitude like that?[/quote]

I totally agree with the poster here. The pay gap is ridiculous. It feels like the PS takes no account for experience gathered in the real world. With over 10 years experience under my belt, I'm now being offered a salary at the entry level. I've put in a lot of work and sacrifice to get to where I am, it feels horrible that it may have been for nothing.

31k is most certainly ridiculous

Squatter

Aces2018 wrote: »

you appear to have decided that your new pay scale is "ridiculous" - who the hell do you think you are with an attitude like that?

I totally agree with the poster here. The pay gap is ridiculous. It feels like the PS takes no account for experience gathered in the real world. With over 10 years experience under my belt, I'm now being offered a salary at the entry level. I've put in a lot of work and sacrifice to get to where I am, it feels horrible that it may have been for nothing.

31k is most certainly ridiculous

AO is a job for intelligent candidates who are capable of working under their own steam. You're certainly not going to make a good AO if you hadn't the basic initiative to research the starting salary before embarking on the application process.

If you don't like the money, then don't take the job, simples. There are plenty of other equally competent - and less self-opinionated - candidates on the panel who will.

Riskymove

OP

AO us a role aimed at graduate recruitment

Essentially you are overqualified and over experienced for that role but are then complaining that the pay doesn't recognise your experience

I suggest you aim for higher level jobs

Ravelleman

Squatter wrote: »

AO is a job for intelligent candidates who are capable of working under their own steam. You're certainly not going to make a good AO if you hadn't the basic initiative to research the starting salary before embarking on the application process.

If you don't like the money, then don't take the job, simples. There are plenty of other equally competent - and less self-opinionated - candidates on the panel who will.

This is a bizarre and surprisingly vindictive post, primarily because civil and public servants love complaining about their pay.

Ravelleman

Riskymove wrote: »

I suggest you aim for higher level jobs

This is sound advice.

Aces2018 wrote: »

Thanks All.
The position I'm going for is at the administrative support level in a university.

Did you apply for this job via the PAS AO competition or is it a role advertised by the university itself? AO covers a range of activities in universities and points on the pay scale certainly have been negotiable for those I know in such roles. This is not the case for the generic Civil Service AOs.

quad_red

Squatter wrote: »

Only then do you appear to have decided that your new pay scale is "ridiculous" - who the hell do you think you are with an attitude like that?

If you don't like the salary scale then you shouldn't have applied for the job in the first place and you are completely free to turn it down and it'll be offered to the next candidate on the panel, there's no shortage of well qualified people who would be delighted to get a starting salary of 31K.

Squatter wrote: »

AO is a job for intelligent candidates who are capable of working under their own steam. You're certainly not going to make a good AO if you hadn't the basic initiative to research the starting salary before embarking on the application process.

If you don't like the money, then don't take the job, simples. There are plenty of other equally competent - and less self-opinionated - candidates on the panel who will.

Wowser.

Sir Ophiuchus

Yeah, this is awfully aggressive. It's possible to want to do the role - and need the job - while realising the two undeniable facts that:

(1) The vast majority of people recruited into the AO role are not fresh graduates but experienced professionals - average age is about thirty, and I know PhDs, former solicitors, former union officials and former teachers in these roles.

(2) The actual work expected of AOs, and the level of responsibility, can often be far higher than the salary would indicate. Often they're being used as discount HEOs, despite being paid far less, and this is justified because it's a 'graduate role'.

Sir Ophiuchus

Aces2018 wrote: »

What is the pension levy thing?

It's an extra tax the Government imposed on civil and public servants only, supposedly to cover the cost of public service pensions. However, since the pensions were cut separately and since public servants also have actual pension deductions, unions (and many CS/PS) see it as another salary cut by the back door.

It won't affect you very much at that salary level. Basically it takes 10% of all gross pay over about €29k (it's slightly more complicated, but not much).

Ravelleman

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

Yeah, this is awfully aggressive. It's possible to want to do the role - and need the job - while realising the two undeniable facts that:

(1) The vast majority of people recruited into the AO role are not fresh graduates but experienced professionals - average age is about thirty, and I know PhDs, former solicitors, former union officials and former teachers in these roles.

(2) The actual work expected of AOs, and the level of responsibility, can often be far higher than the salary would indicate. Often they're being used as discount HEOs, despite being paid far less, and this is justified because it's a 'graduate role'.

I agree completely. The range of responsibilities at AO level is very broad. In many ways it is a problematic role due to the increasing conflation between it and HEO. In my particular area of the CS, there have been no AOs historically, thus adding to the confusion.

AO is also an unusual role in that the salary effectively doubles over the course of the incremental scale, the only such case in the Civil Service. While it is certainly a promotion grade for many, many others will use it as a stepping stone on to AP - and long before that doubled salary ever comes.

Depending on where you end up, how you approach the work and the impression you make, the role can lead to interesting situations. This is the main benefit.

Squatter

Ravelleman wrote: »

This is a bizarre and surprisingly vindictive post, primarily because civil and public servants love complaining about their pay.

It an opinion; so take it or leave it, I couldn't really give a toss.

However, I will add for the record that this former public servant never complained about his pay - and he entered the public service with five years' private sector experience and a third level qualification.

griffin100

Aces2018 wrote: »

Thanks All.
The position I'm going for is at the administrative support level in a university. I knew when applying that I might have to take a salary cut.
I just didn't understand the PS pay grade thing. I never thought the pay gap between public and private was so large.
So just one more question,

What is the pension levy thing?

Given that this is not the civil service you may be able to negotiate a higher starting salary. I've taken on / sat in interview boards for many a candidate in the third level sector that was offered a higher point in the scale when starting. Depends on the university in question I'd say. No harm in pushing for a higher starting point. Also movement and promotion within the larger universities at mid management grades is common if you're good.

Ravelleman

griffin100 wrote: »

Given that this is not the civil service you may be able to negotiate a higher starting salary. I've taken on / sat in interview boards for many a candidate in the third level sector that was offered a higher point in the scale when starting. Depends on the university in question I'd say. No harm in pushing for a higher starting point. Also movement and promotion within the larger universities at mid management grades is common if you're good.

This main issue in universities is permanency, even for administrative staff. This may not be the case for the OP.