Buying scooter, no logbook, previous owner not known

eskerman

I am considering buying an old scooter - circa 2004 and there is no logbook with it - it was purchased by the person who is selling it from a garage sale and its been off the road for over 5 years - genuine seller but no book

I know the form RF134 is used for replacement documents but I think this must be completed by the "registered owner" and in this case I dont know who this is

Any idea how I can sort this out without ending up to my neck in paperwork -

P

bazz26

eskerman wrote: »

I am considering buying an old scooter - circa 2004 and there is no logbook with it - it was purchased by the person who is selling it from a garage sale and its been off the road for over 5 years - genuine seller but no book

I know the form RF134 is used for replacement documents but I think this must be completed by the "registered owner" and in this case I dont know who this is

Any idea how I can sort this out without ending up to my neck in paperwork -

P

It should be the seller who should be sorting it out and not selling it without the proper registration documentation. The onus should not be on the buyer.

eskerman

I understand the onus is on the seller - but the seller doesn't know who the previous registered owner was - the scooter was purchased in a garage sale clear out so book or previous owner unknown - I think the previous registered owner was a student who emigrated a few years ago

P

dr.fuzzenstein

Years ago an E30 BMW was abandoned in the estate I lived with owner having gone back to their country. I looked into claiming it.
The only way is to find out who the owner is and steal their identity, then apply for a new logbook, forge their signature and sign it over to yourself.
Otherwise you'd have to buy one of the infamous log books with no car attached and fake the identity of the vehicle.
Or trace the owner and get him to sign it over to you.
No other way I'm afraid.

grogi

eskerman wrote: »

I understand the onus is on the seller - but the seller doesn't know who the previous registered owner was - the scooter was purchased in a garage sale clear out so book or previous owner unknown - I think the previous registered owner was a student who emigrated a few years ago

The seller might have 'borrowed' it from the previous owner too...

You have absolutely no business buying a vehicle without any form of paperwork...

eskerman

grogi wrote: »

The seller might have 'borrowed' it from the previous owner too...

You have absolutely no business buying a vehicle without any form of paperwork...

I haven't bought it and I won't unless I can get this paperwork sorted - I do believe its a genuine case and there is nothing underhand going on - and the bike was bought as part of a job-lot - house clear out

P

wexie

Unless I'm seriously mistaken this is possible (for cars at least) but involves presenting the car to a VRT office to have it's identity checked, signed declaration from a commissioner of oaths and a whole range of other headaches.

Not too sure about scooters but I'd imagine the process will be much the same?

Logbooks get lost all the time when it comes to 'classics', 'barnfinds' and tractors and the likes

Realistically though, unless it's a particularly good deal or rare scooter I don't think I'd be bothered.

I'd imagine someone will be along shortly to either clarify on the process or tell me I'm talking bollocks

eskerman

wexie wrote: »

Unless I'm seriously mistaken this is possible (for cars at least) but involves presenting the car to a VRT office to have it's identity checked, signed declaration from a commissioner of oaths and a whole range of other headaches.

Not too sure about scooters but I'd imagine the process will be much the same?

Logbooks get lost all the time when it comes to 'classics', 'barnfinds' and tractors and the likes

Realistically though, unless it's a particularly good deal or rare scooter I don't think I'd be bothered.

I'd imagine someone will be along shortly to either clarify on the process or tell me I'm talking bollocks

Thanks for your contribution and all opinions are valuable - I did research this on the Dept Of Transport site and its a nightmare and I cant get the correct information - surly its a circumstance that can occur from time to time and I would have thought the Garda could help out here - they could see who the last registered owner was and maybe write to that person to verify the position - that to me seems the easy and most logical way to determine if all was in order - and it only costs the price pf a stamp and a short letter

Am I expecting too much - simple works in my world instead of getting sucked into a paperwork nightmare

p

ohnonotgmail

eskerman wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution and all opinions are valuable - I did research this on the Dept Of Transport site and its a nightmare and I cant get the correct information - surly its a circumstance that can occur from time to time and I would have thought the Garda could help out here - they could see who the last registered owner was and maybe write to that person to verify the position - that to me seems the easy and most logical way to determine if all was in order - and it only costs the price pf a stamp and a short letter

Am I expecting too much - simple works in my world instead of getting sucked into a paperwork nightmare

p

i think you are.

eskerman

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i think you are.

Sadly I tend to agree with you - the "system" is rigged against being efficient

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wexie

eskerman wrote: »

Thanks for your contribution and all opinions are valuable - I did research this on the Dept Of Transport site and its a nightmare and I cant get the correct information - surly its a circumstance that can occur from time to time and I would have thought the Garda could help out here - they could see who the last registered owner was and maybe write to that person to verify the position - that to me seems the easy and most logical way to determine if all was in order - and it only costs the price pf a stamp and a short letter

Am I expecting too much - simple works in my world instead of getting sucked into a paperwork nightmare

p

If....you have a chassis number (do scooters have chassis numbers?) you could perhaps try your luck ringing Shannon...they may be able to help if you are very nice about it and explain the situation.

As it is the system is pretty cumbersome

Thanks to Prisoner6753, I knew someone would come along with the correct details. So now you know how to do it, you just need to decide is it worth it

ohnonotgmail

eskerman wrote: »

Sadly I tend to agree with you - the "system" is rigged against being efficient

i think it more the case that it is not the job of the garda.

eskerman

wexie wrote: »

If....you have a chassis number (do scooters have chassis numbers?) you could perhaps try your luck ringing Shannon...they may be able to help if you are very nice about it and explain the situation.

As it is the system is pretty cumbersome

Thanks to Prisoner6753, I knew someone would come along with the correct details. So now you know how to do it, you just need to decide is it worth it

Yes thanks to Prisoner6753 and that is "doable" as I am not in any hurry to get this matter resolved - the problem is I buy the scooter and the previous owner makes some sort of claim - but that is the way the process should work and that is fair enough

The scooter is for my son who starts third level and he needs a way to get to the train station - and a small scooter could work - even though he would have his driving licence - we just cant get him insurance at a reasonable rate.

P

oleras

eskerman wrote: »

Yes thanks to Prisoner6753 and that is "doable" as I am not in any hurry to get this matter resolved - the problem is I buy the scooter and the previous owner makes some sort of claim - but that is the way the process should work and that is fair enough

The scooter is for my son who starts third level and he needs a way to get to the train station - and a small scooter could work - even though he would have his driving licence - we just cant get him insurance at a reasonable rate.

P

Does he have a A1 licence ? Or AM if its less than 45kmh max speed.

eskerman

oleras wrote: »

Does he have a A1 licence ? Or AM if its less than 45kmh max speed.

He has a provisional licence at present and he is 18 - he starts third level education in Sept and the only way he can commute is by train to Maynooth - so a little scooter will get him to the train station and back and it saves a lot of hassle.. we were going to get him driving lessons but why bother when he cant get insurance and no point in having a car sitting outside college all day - its possible to get him as a named driver on his mums car but thats up the road

P

oleras

eskerman wrote: »

He has a provisional licence at present and he is 18 - he starts third level education in Sept and the only way he can commute is by train to Maynooth - so a little scooter will get him to the train station and back and it saves a lot of hassle.. we were going to get him driving lessons but why bother when he cant get insurance and no point in having a car sitting outside college all day - its possible to get him as a named driver on his mums car but thats up the road

P

What category is the learner permit for ?

grogi

eskerman wrote: »

Sadly I tend to agree with you - the "system" is rigged against being efficient

Irish system is actually very efficient and puts a lot of trust in the citizen. But there are some limits...

How should it be more efficient and prevent someone 'borrowing' a car from old chap in the village and registering it in his name?

eskerman

I think it’s rare when a registration book is missing and no trace of previous owner - so in these rare situations there should be a way of getting a replacement registration cert without having to jump through too many humps and bumps - and yes I agree there needs to be protection for genuine owners of vehicles..

wexie

eskerman wrote: »

I think it’s rare when a registration book is missing and no trace of previous owner -

not as rare as you'd think, certainly not once you start talking older vehicles.

I bought one where I was told that it was definitely all above board and there would be no bother getting a new book.

Rang Shannon.....was told that that chassis number (of the project sitting in my shed) was currently taxed and driving around elsewhere in the country

eskerman

wexie wrote: »

not as rare as you'd think, certainly not once you start talking older vehicles.

I bought one where I was told that it was definitely all above board and there would be no bother getting a new book.

Rang Shannon.....was told that that chassis number (of the project sitting in my shed) was currently taxed and driving around elsewhere in the country

Do you mind me asking how all that ended up - and did you get your money back from the person who sold it to you

wexie

eskerman wrote: »

Do you mind me asking how all that ended up - and did you get your money back from the person who sold it to you

Well it ended up like that (presumably) because someone along the line took the identity of the car I bought (land rover) to get cheap tax on a new one and then sold on the old car.

Didn't get my money back from the guy I bought it from because I'm pretty sure he was on the level (he did offer and he wasn't very happy because he had bought it in good faith as well).

I thought about it for a bit and decided I couldn't really do with the headache of going through the whole process as described above only to have the owner actually dispute my claim on the vehicle with the associated hassle.

So in the end I broke it for parts, easily made my money back. Best I know this guy is still driving around somewhere in a Defender which is taxed as an earlier model.

Happens all the time with Land Rovers. Or regularly enough anyways.
Not too sure about other car brands but if the car has a chassis then the identity of the car (essentially) is the chassis number.

Take the chassis plate off one (or get a new one), stamp 'old' chassis number on new car....bob's your uncle.

Which, I wouldn't necessarily have too much of an issue with someone doing, it's just when they sell on the evidence (ie. the old car) which now no longer has an identity (on paper at least) to some unsuspecting fecker.

I doubt all of this is much of an issue with scooters though so don't let this put you off.

Just an illustration on how broken the system is.

If you keep an eye open you'll regularly see Land Rover Discovery's with ZV (vintage) plates. Which would require them to be 30+ years old.
Discovery's only started in the mid (94 I think) 90's.....

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wexie

Prisoner 6753 wrote: »

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in theory.....:D

From your posting I suspect we both know that not to be the case

eskerman

wexie wrote: »

Well it ended up like that (presumably) because someone along the line took the identity of the car I bought (land rover) to get cheap tax on a new one and then sold on the old car.

Didn't get my money back from the guy I bought it from because I'm pretty sure he was on the level (he did offer and he wasn't very happy because he had bought it in good faith as well).

I thought about it for a bit and decided I couldn't really do with the headache of going through the whole process as described above only to have the owner actually dispute my claim on the vehicle with the associated hassle.

So in the end I broke it for parts, easily made my money back. Best I know this guy is still driving around somewhere in a Defender which is taxed as an earlier model.

Happens all the time with Land Rovers. Or regularly enough anyways.
Not too sure about other car brands but if the car has a chassis then the identity of the car (essentially) is the chassis number.

Take the chassis plate off one (or get a new one), stamp 'old' chassis number on new car....bob's your uncle.

Which, I wouldn't necessarily have too much of an issue with someone doing, it's just when they sell on the evidence (ie. the old car) which now no longer has an identity (on paper at least) to some unsuspecting fecker.

I doubt all of this is much of an issue with scooters though so don't let this put you off.

Just an illustration on how broken the system is.

If you keep an eye open you'll regularly see Land Rover Discovery's with ZV (vintage) plates. Which would require them to be 30+ years old.
Discovery's only started in the mid (94 I think) 90's.....

Well I guess you took the easier route out if it and there was no real skullduggery buy the seller - so that makes it a little easier to swallow and if you got your money back as a breaker - it’s out of jail

Live and learn and no matter how much you check things - you just don’t really know