Is school for everybody.

https://fora.ie/cut-and-sew-sean-bryan-3950835-Apr2018/

I would be big into everyone at least doing the leaving, however, if someone is not interested and is disruptive should they be allowed to leave school would they regret it later in life.

Also how to distinguish between the lazy and can't be bothered verser the have a genuine issue with school and would do much better working.

Graces7

Interesting thread; thank you.
I taught in senior schools many years long and and there were always pupils who left as soon as the law allowed,
There was one girl who loved horses an had a job and prospects in her families stables. She saw no point in staying o n, and i really agreed with her.She had a good basic education, and more.

Then,years later, when digger broke down near my house , blocking me, I chatted with the team. One was a lad skilled in the work and in repair work in the machine
( and by the way, they had left the digger parked overnight and there had been vandalism )
He too had a good job with his family so no point staying on

and they can always move on later with nightschool.My own mother did that. Was set to the cotton mills at 14, then went to nightschool and got high secretarial qualifications.

RebelButtMunch

A fantastic TED talk here Titled 'Do schools kill creativity"

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity

DEFTLEFTHAND

Third level certainly isn't for everyone.

somefeen

School is basically a hell you are forced to go through by the government, "for your own good".

For me personally everything beyond primary was a waste of time and I shouldn't have been made stay until I was 16. I'm sure there would have been many more productive uses for my time.
We need more alternatives and alternative teaching systems.
I'd wager the costs of implementing them would be covered by having better educated and motivated young people doing well.

RebelButtMunch

My opinion is that the education system we have is the least worst option. It's mostly in favour of people who are a:academic and b:good at remembering and transcribing.

Enjoying something and being good at something mostly go hand in hand. In a perfect system we'd focus on those things. e.g What is the point in taking the time to learn something that realistically you'll NEVER need or want to use.

What get's my goat lately is the massive focus on STEM subjects. That's an economics drive if anything. We are surrounded by things that look and sound pretty, but where's the drive to support that... anyway, thats a bit of a rant.

uch

School wasn't for me, but mainly due to the fact I went through it with un-diagnosed Moderate dyslexia, But tbf, when I was in school nobody had ever heard of it, I was just passed off as the thick fella that caused the hassle

One eyed Jack

I would say that we have it about right in this country, that we strive to ensure every child receives at least a minimum standard of education to enable them to function in, and make a positive contribution to society, to enable them to provide for and support themselves independently.

Is a formal, or mainstream education for everyone? No, but for the vast majority of children it's a necessity, because for every example of an adult who was able to make a positive contribution to society in spite of having either come through the formal education system, or having been educated outside of the formal education system, there are thousands of adults who have not achieved the same measure of success, and I don't think we need to start basing policy decisions on the evidence of a vanishingly small minority of cases.

Bitches Be Trypsin

I think a basic level of education should be compulsory, say to Junior Cert. After that, dropping out of school should only be allowed if the person is enrolled in some kind of apprenticeship or can prove they have full time work.

Third level education is not for everyone. It definitely wasn't for me, creativity was killed as opposed to enhanced in my case!

cantdecide

I posted about this elsewhere but for many reasons (bullying and a difficult home life mostly) I fell badly behind in primary and arrived in secondary at a disadvantage. I fumbled through secondary not really knowing how to study or how to catch up in certain types of subjects (Irish, History etc)but did well in tangible things like maths, construction studies, physics etc but the damage was done.

I begged my parents to let me take Leaving Cert Applied (it would have been the very first year of it) as I felt it might get down a more suitable route like a trade but was forbidden - my dad was a carpenter who was convinced all his kids would become doctors and solicitors. I finished the LC with poor results and didn't know what to do about it so ended up doing warehouse and labouring type jobs in the boom which was okay. I thought about doing a PLC but was told no [some version of 'it's a waste of hard earned money']. I didn't want to tell my dad I still wanted to do a trade and once I was working it was clear that the days of possible parental support in education were over.

Meanwhile, a childhood friend was constantly in trouble, almost got expelled once or twice, didn't do the work - the whole 9 yards. He did leaving cert applied iirc and I remember him telling me at the time his mother begged him to take a 1yr PLC so he did. This lead to him doing graphic design which somehow extended into IT and since then he's never been out of work and doing very well.

TL;DR - The short answer is no, school isn't for everyone. I would urge all parents to not impose stifling expectations on their children and just help them to make the right choices for them, not for you.

biko

School is for kids who cant read good and want to learn how to do other stuff good too

Captain Obvious

If you read the thread this parodies I think it's obvious school is not for everyone.

Yer Da sells Avon

School definitely isn't for me, but then I am 36.

I think transition year should be after the Leaving Cert. You do your exams in 5th year and then 6th year is focused on non-academic activities like work placements, career guidance, practical skills, etc.

BrokenArrows

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Enjoying something and being good at something mostly go hand in hand. In a perfect system we'd focus on those things. e.g What is the point in taking the time to learn something that realistically you'll NEVER need or want to use.

Because until your old enough you have no idea what you want to do or what you might be interested in.

Schools teach the basics of a wide variety of topics and its then up to you do decide if any of those topics appeal to you ie. 3rd level education.

Its the only way to do things because there is no way to customize education on a person by person basis. (Until they invent proper virtual reality and the VR system can teach the child).

cantdecide

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

What is the point in taking the time to learn something that realistically you'll NEVER need or want to use.

Just finishing up a part time business degree (at 36) and am damn glad of what I picked up in maths from the point of view of Accounting, Financial Management and Statistics. Not to mention what I gleaned in Business Studies as an introduction to business law.

There's a place for a breadth of skills and training as long as they don't become the rock a student perishes on.

School should be for everyone but the manner in which schooling is implemented is just awful, and kills any desire to be there. Learning doesn't need to be torture. Gosh, wouldn't it have been nice if they'd actually taught us how to learn before trying to fill our minds with useless information?

School is definitely not for everyone. Pity though. It should be.

pumpkin4life

Depends what you mean for everybody.

If you mean teach kids and teenagers facts and how to navigate the world, then no, school is a giant waste of time.

If you mean give a large number of people employment at the expense of the taxpayer, give career leftists a purpose to their lives and an effort to indoctrinate people, and to try and mould people into a nice little office drone with all the right opinions and ideas and to destroy creativity, then school is something that is absolutely for everybody.

This goes for university as well.

Graces7

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I would say that we have it about right in this country, that we strive to ensure every child receives at least a minimum standard of education to enable them to function in, and make a positive contribution to society, to enable them to provide for and support themselves independently.

Is a formal, or mainstream education for everyone? No, but for the vast majority of children it's a necessity, because for every example of an adult who was able to make a positive contribution to society in spite of having either come through the formal education system, or having been educated outside of the formal education system, there are thousands of adults who have not achieved the same measure of success, and I don't think we need to start basing policy decisions on the evidence of a vanishingly small minority of cases.

Oh no; I did not see that as what the OP meant and the children I mentioned were rarities but strong ones. They left at the minimum legal age.They were literate and numerate

What shocks me about rural Ireland is the sheer numbers of middle aged men who are illiterate or semi so. One landlord farmer, a very rich man, could just about sign his name and no more. Another could hardly read and i swiftly realised , as I worked i court documents with him, that he was dyslexic

Both were giving a lot to the community.

begbysback

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Third level certainly isn't for everyone.

At least you get an option what to study which makes education more suitable to the individual

Options in secondary?
English - no thanks I can already speak English
Irish - like what use is that to me
History - it's in the past
Geography - now made redundant by google maps
Religion - fictional reading more like
Maths - ok can't argue with maths, needed it to calculate how late I was for work each morning
Science - like when in the normal world am I really going to need to know if potassium mixes with helium

Graces7

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Because until your old enough you have no idea what you want to do or what you might be interested in.

Schools teach the basics of a wide variety of topics and its then up to you do decide if any of those topics appeal to you ie. 3rd level education.

Its the only way to do things because there is no way to customize education on a person by person basis. (Until they invent proper virtual reality and the VR system can teach the child).

Over education is as bad in its own right as under. Another farmer I knew has 4 sons, all doing course after course and no work in sight, refusing even to work the farm with him.

and in the hands of a good teacher, customisation happens in so far as it is of any use

Mrs OBumble

mariaalice wrote: »

https://fora.ie/cut-and-sew-sean-bryan-3950835-Apr2018/

I would be big into everyone at least doing the leaving, ....

The whole idea of "the leaving" is nonsense. It made sense when leaving school was the end of your education. But for most people these days education (formal and informal) is lifelong.

Measures of attainment, for sure. One big set of external exams that determine your entire future ... nah, that's so 19h century.

Donald Trump

begbysback wrote: »

At least you get an option what to study which makes education more suitable to the individual

Options in secondary?
English - no thanks I can already speak English
Irish - like what use is that to me
History - it's in the past
Geography - now made redundant by google maps
Religion - fictional reading more like
Maths - ok can't argue with maths, needed it to calculate how late I was for work each morning
Science - like when in the normal world am I really going to need to know if potassium mixes with helium

Ah here. You are inadvertently proving the point that the ability to learn isn't possessed by everyone to the same degree

Especially this one:

Geography - now made redundant by google maps

Is that what the LC curriculum was? A modified version of a taxi test on how to get from A to B? :pac:

_Brian

Yes school is for everyone, but mainstream teaching methods may not suit everyone.

I don’t think letting kids drop out is the solution.

Kids with learning issues need to be identified and given support, issues includes lazy good for nothing parents as well as learning difficulties.

spurious

The world doesn't need everyone to be a graduate.

I remember asking a child once what his ideal job would be. He was at best, a reluctant school attendee, but came in every day, despite rarely having occasions of success. Imagine what that is like, not to just do badly in the odd test, but almost every single class to get kicked in the self-esteem and yet get up every day and come in, in the hope it might not happen today. He had some issues during his birth and beforehand which meant he was not the world's greatest reader or writer and had difficulty retaining information that was not relevant to him, but he could name all the United teams back into the 70s, plus every trophy they had ever won.

He liked the social side of school and was popular with teachers and the other children. He was there every day and was as honest as the day is long. There was never any worry about equipment going missing when this lad was about. Honestly you couldn't say the same about many of the others.

Anyway, his answer was not 'play for United' or anything outlandish. In his own words, he would have loved to be 'the man who fixes things in the community centre'.

I'm guessing it would have been a minimum wage job, but this was his target and I know with a little bit of appropriate training, he would have been great at it. He would have treated that community centre like his own front room. It would have been spotless. He would have had a standing in his community and by his own yardstick would have been a success.

Instead, he left school without a Leaving and while he picks up the odd bit of work, he has not had a job for more than a couple of weeks since he left.

There is no differentiation in our schools anymore. They all teach the same subjects, the same curriculum. The much maligned LCA, which tried to recognise different non-academic skills was pitched way too low and sneered at, not only (though mainly) by people outside it. Instead of having money pumped into it, it has been let rot, with a syllabus that is hopelessly out of date.

tl; dr Not everyone is suited to our present system.

begbysback

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah here. You are inadvertently proving the point that the ability to learn isn't possessed by everyone to the same degree

Especially this one:


Is that what the LC curriculum was? A modified version of a taxi test on how to get from A to B? :pac:

Exactly, geography to learn how to get there, math to calculate the distance and time, English to ask for directions and religion to pray and ask god for directions if you got lost,

Irish of course in case you get lost near the Gaeltacht

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Post primary, there's very little essential life-skills on the JC and LC courses and the problem is the complete lack of variety.

Question isn't should kids be allowed to drop school, question is, what can be done for them instead?

4ensic15

Education is for everybody. School isn't. Irish schools are terrible. The focus is all in the same direction. Every pupil is supposed to aspire to the same thing. I know a guy who is from a family of 7. One brother a phd, a sister a professor and other high achieving siblings. He left school with 5 passes in the leaving. He was a millionaire by his mid 30s.

One eyed Jack

4ensic15 wrote: »

Education is for everybody. School isn't. Irish schools are terrible. The focus is all in the same direction. Every pupil is supposed to aspire to the same thing. I know a guy who is from a family of 7. One brother a phd, a sister a professor and other high achieving siblings. He left school with 5 passes in the leaving. He was a millionaire by his mid 30s.

The anecdote you related after that point clearly demonstrates it's simply untrue without me ever having to go to the effort of pointing out that if it were true that every pupil is supposed to aspire to the same thing, there wouldn't be the variation of outcomes there is among adults. School isn't the only influence in persons success, but it's undoubtedly a major influential factor all the same.

How many more millionaires do you reckon finished secondary school versus your one friend who didn't? The point I'm making is that far from your assertion that Irish schools are terrible, they provide far more opportunities for people to become millionaires than those people who leave school early. The people who left school early and become millionaires afterwards are outliers, exceptional people who would have had other contributing factors which provided them with the opportunities to become millionaires as opposed to just having left school early, or lending any weight to the assertion that Irish schools are terrible. They clearly aren't.

Midkemia

What I really hate is when people say the leaving is all about rote learning.

It really isnt, I studied music in school and got 50% for my practical (this really motivated me to get good at guitar and piano). The German I picked up in school helped me a lot in college and other subjects like DCG, metalwork and woodwork involve utilizing a lot of creativity. Yea if you chose history and geography there's gonna be a lot of learning off but then don't choose them if you don't want to rote learn.

How Soon Is Now

Learned a certain amount but learned more important things when I left.

Left before 5th year was finished started working full time the very next day. Had various different jobs since.

Mother kept at me to go back try get the leaving went back and still ended up not doing it. I had no interest none of it meant anything to me.

Most of what your taught in school is ****ing pointless in the real world.

You should be taught how to drive in school.
Basic to intermediate level of cooking should be taught to its ridiculous how many men and women can't even throw a basic decent healthy meal together.

I'm sure there's loads of other very valuable things they could also teach instead of a dead language and forced beliefs.

4ensic15

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The anecdote you related after that point clearly demonstrates it's simply untrue without me ever having to go to the effort of pointing out that if it were true that every pupil is supposed to aspire to the same thing, there wouldn't be the variation of outcomes there is among adults. School isn't the only influence in persons success, but it's undoubtedly a major influential factor all the same.

How many more millionaires do you reckon finished secondary school versus your one friend who didn't? The point I'm making is that far from your assertion that Irish schools are terrible, they provide far more opportunities for people to become millionaires than those people who leave school early. The people who left school early and become millionaires afterwards are outliers, exceptional people who would have had other contributing factors which provided them with the opportunities to become millionaires as opposed to just having left school early, or lending any weight to the assertion that Irish schools are terrible. They clearly aren't.

That is nonsense. If the guy was so exceptional, why did his school deem him a failure? What did it do to try and harness his talents? All the school did was, say "here are the books, here is the syllabus, now knuckle down". It wasted years of his life.

One eyed Jack

4ensic15 wrote: »

That is nonsense. If the guy was so exceptional, why did his school deem him a failure? What did it do to try and harness his talents? All the school did was, say "here are the books, here is the syllabus, now knuckle down". It wasted years of his life.

No, what's nonsense is the claim that Irish schools are terrible, and as an example of this you give one example of someone who left school early and became a millionaire. You're ignoring the fact that many, many more millionaires actually finish third level education and are still millionaires by the time they're 30. That's the standard you were using as a measure of the success or failure of Irish schools - the number of millionaires who leave school early vs the number of millionaires who do not. The number of millionaires under 30 who finished school by far and away out numbers the number of millionaires who left school early.

That's why the guy you know is exceptional, not because Irish schools are terrible, not because he was deemed a failure in school, not because his talents weren't recognised, but simply because the outcome you present following on from the guy having left school early is incredibly rare as to be exceptional, and can only be explained by some other influential factor.

We like to point at examples of billionaire CEOs like Bill Gates and say "oh they dropped out of school/college and they did alright", well yes, they did, because they came from already incredibly wealthy families and so they could simply afford to pursue other interests instead of formal education, but that too will only get a person so far in life, and without the supports and opportunities that they had other than pursuing formal education, the world would never have heard of Bill Gates, or the non rose-tinted romanticised and edited version of his rise to success.

Same thing with the guy in your example. I have no doubt that he wasn't suited to a school environment, but again as I said earlier in the thread - it's not a good idea to make policy decisions on the basis of individual or anecdotal evidence, and certainly I wouldn't be making gross generalisations and sweeping statements about the quality of Irish schools or whether they are fit for purpose or that Irish schools are terrible on the basis of one individuals experience.

4ensic15

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, what's nonsense is the claim that Irish schools are terrible, and as an example of this you give one example of someone who left school early and became a millionaire. You're ignoring the fact that many, many more millionaires actually finish third level education and are still millionaires by the time they're 30. That's the standard you were using as a measure of the success or failure of Irish schools - the number of millionaires who leave school early vs the number of millionaires who do not. The number of millionaires under 30 who finished school by far and away out numbers the number of millionaires who left school early.

That's why the guy you know is exceptional, not because Irish schools are terrible, not because he was deemed a failure in school, not because his talents weren't recognised, but simply because the outcome you present following on from the guy having left school early is incredibly rare as to be exceptional, and can only be explained by some other influential factor.

We like to point at examples of billionaire CEOs like Bill Gates and say "oh they dropped out of school/college and they did alright", well yes, they did, because they came from already incredibly wealthy families and so they could simply afford to pursue other interests instead of formal education, but that too will only get a person so far in life, and without the supports and opportunities that they had other than pursuing formal education, the world would never have heard of Bill Gates, or the non rose-tinted romanticised and edited version of his rise to success.

Same thing with the guy in your example. I have no doubt that he wasn't suited to a school environment, but again as I said earlier in the thread - it's not a good idea to make policy decisions on the basis of individual or anecdotal evidence, and certainly I wouldn't be making gross generalisations and sweeping statements about the quality of Irish schools or whether they are fit for purpose or that Irish schools are terrible on the basis of one individuals experience.

I know very few people who went through school and college who were self made millionaires by the time they were 30. Most that i know are poor. teachers or some such. Lucky if they can rent a flat and run a fiesta. Schools are supposed to bring out the talents in people. What they do, in this country, is ignore people who don't fit their mould.