Bank acc Overdrawn due to interest/fees [Ulsterbank]

Newbie18

Hi guys, long time lurker first time poster.

Ulsterbank have been onto me recently regarding outstanding balance on my account saying they can't close my account with money either in the account or if they account is overdrawn. I switched banks in 2013 and requested all of my transactions from date of creation to present.

Long and short of it is - I had approx €7 in the account in Oct of 2013. Fees/interests knocked it down €4 leaving the balance €3, and from the next interest charge the account was put in the negatives. I believe UB only began to levy some accounts (with less than €3000 from what I've seen) with these fees in 2013.

I had been receiving emails about 'the charges I'll be paying' along with the odd letter that never did much outside of telling me to go into the bank or log on. Through admitted carelessness I never bothered following up and only recently they have gotten in touch on the phone - their collections dept is trying to get me to pay up.


Realistically speaking, do I have a leg to stand on here? I never consented or signed my name to fees on the account (part of the original reason I'd went with UB was to avoid dormant fees) however I understand that the emails and occasional letter may invalidate my stance entirely as I should have been more on the ball.


Do I realistically have any chance of refuting this? If I need to pay up, I will. I just thought I'd do a bit of research first and would appreciate any input on the matter prior to progressing with it. Thanks!

STB.

If fees have knocked your account into the red and there have been no transactions on the account other than fees since 2013, tell them to do one and do it in person as loud as you can in the branch.

They cannnot charge you (they'll try) for an overdraft if the cause of the overdraft is their own fees. Close the account and get them to write it off.

Glass fused light

Newbie18 wrote: »

Hi guys, long time lurker first time poster.

Ulsterbank have been onto me recently regarding outstanding balance on my account saying they can't close my account with money either in the account or if they account is overdrawn. I switched banks in 2013 and requested all of my transactions from date of creation to present.

Did you instruct UB to close the account by calling into the branch or in writing?

Newbie18 wrote: »

Long and short of it is - I had approx €7 in the account in Oct of 2013. Fees/interests knocked it down €4 leaving the balance €3, and from the next interest charge the account was put in the negatives. I believe UB only began to levy some accounts (with less than €3000 from what I've seen) with these fees in 2013.

Did you instruct UB to transfer any funds into aother account or to issue a cheque to your address?

Newbie18 wrote: »

I had been receiving emails about 'the charges I'll be paying' along with the odd letter that never did much outside of telling me to go into the bank or log on. Through admitted carelessness I never bothered following up and only recently they have gotten in touch on the phone - their collections dept is trying to get me to pay up.

Realistically speaking, do I have a leg to stand on here? I never consented or signed my name to fees on the account (part of the original reason I'd went with UB was to avoid dormant fees) however I understand that the emails and occasional letter may invalidate my stance entirely as I should have been more on the ball.

Did you agree to abide by the contract terms and conditions when you opened the account ie did you fill an account opening form?

Newbie18 wrote: »

Do I realistically have any chance of refuting this? If I need to pay up, I will. I just thought I'd do a bit of research first and would appreciate any input on the matter prior to progressing with it. Thanks!

Can you prove that UB did not act in accordance with the contract terms and conditions or have you the ability to negotiate with UB to write off the debt.

Newbie18

STB. wrote: »

If fees have knocked your account into the red and there have been no transactions on the account other than fees since 2013, tell them to do one and do it in person as loud as you can in the branch.

No transactions whatsoever outside of fees since there was €7 left in the account. 2 sets of fees later and I'm in the red, at which point the fees/interest just started to continually stack up. They had my number but I was only made aware of the issue once it had gone to Collections and they called me to 'propose repayment plans'.

The entire call was ridiculous. She kept trying to get me to fess up that I owed them money. Kept putting minor spins on what I was saying, giving the impression that I had acknowledged the debt despite my clearly stating that I'd discuss this with my local branch first.

Newbie18

Apologies Glass Fused Light, didn't catch your reply until I was in the midst of responding to STB.

Did you instruct UB to close the account by calling into the branch or in writing?

No, as stated in the original post I simply switched and my own personal negligence is what led to things getting as far as they did. The account is open and when called by Collections they said they were going to close the account but couldn't do so if money is either in the account or if the account is in the red.

Did you instruct UB to transfer any funds into aother account or to issue a cheque to your address?

Negative - there was a total of €7 in the account when I stopped using it.

Did you agree to abide by the contract terms and conditions when you opened the account ie did you fill an account opening form?

I did indeed fill out an account opening form and I may be caught in the small print on that one, hence my asking for opinions. I recall getting the rep I had spoken to in the bank to confirm there would be no idle fees on the account. Whether that was put in writing or not - unlikely. Given that there was no levy at the time it likely wouldn't need to be in writing.

Can you prove that UB did not act in accordance with the contract terms and conditions or have you the ability to negotiate with UB to write off the debt.

Unsure. Farming opinions first, may speak with a legal rep for advice and proceed accordingly. If I don't realistically have any rebuttal, I will pay - just want to get some better insight into the situation first.

Glass fused light

Newbie18 wrote: »

I did indeed fill out an account opening form and I may be caught in the small print on that one, hence my asking for opinions. I recall getting the rep I had spoken to in the bank to confirm there would be no idle fees on the account. Whether that was put in writing or not - unlikely. Given that there was no levy at the time it likely wouldn't need to be in writing.

If You agreed to the generic contract it allows the bank to make change to the generic terms by issuing a notification is a specific format eg by updating their website and once the notification period passes you agreed, by leaving your account open even if inactive, to be bound by the new terms.

Summary : you agreed to the fee arrangement.

Newbie18 wrote: »

Unsure. Farming opinions first, may speak with a legal rep for advice and proceed accordingly. If I don't realistically have any rebuttal, I will pay - just want to get some better insight into the situation first.

you wont be allowed to close the account without clearing the overdraft, you have probably have reset the clock for the bank by your call. And the bank is submitting reports to the Central bank which is used for your credit score.

STB.

Newbie18 wrote: »

No transactions whatsoever outside of fees since there was €7 left in the account. 2 sets of fees later and I'm in the red, at which point the fees/interest just started to continually stack up. They had my number but I was only made aware of the issue once it had gone to Collections and they called me to 'propose repayment plans'.

The entire call was ridiculous. She kept trying to get me to fess up that I owed them money. Kept putting minor spins on what I was saying, giving the impression that I had acknowledged the debt despite my clearly stating that I'd discuss this with my local branch first.

They cannot charge you interest if the basis for the interest is the fees and interest themselves.

Like many jobsworths in life banks are out to make money however they can and have no morals. You have no doubt read about the mortgage scandal. UB are up to their necks in it and have shown complete comtempt for their supposed customers.

Like I said earlier, your best bet is to go into the branch and explain to the manager that you are going to let everyone know in the bank what they are if he does not close your account with no monies owed.

I certainly wouldnt pay them on an account thats inactive and tell them to stop ringing you. Eitherway I wouldnt lose any sleep over it.

Glass fused light wrote: »

you wont be allowed to close the account without clearing the overdraft, you have probably have reset the clock for the bank by your call. And the bank is submitting reports to the Central bank which is used for your credit score.

Are you having a laugh ?

Glass fused light

STB. wrote: »

They cannot charge you interest if the basis for the interest is the fees and interest themselves.  

 Can you provide any supporting documents to the OP

STB. wrote: »

Like many jobsworths in life banks are out to make money however they can and have no morals.  You have no doubt read about the mortgage scandal.  UB are up to their necks in it and have shown complete comtempt for their supposed customers.

Like I said earlier, your best bet is to go into the branch and explain to the manager that you are going to let everyone know in the bank what they are if he does not close your account with no monies owed.

I certainly wouldnt pay them on an account thats inactive and tell them to stop ringing you.  Eitherway I wouldnt lose any sleep over it.

OP
1) it's with collections not the branch so if you are not making a payment counter staff will direct you back to collections.
2) good luck with getting the manager. 
3) when you are explaining, just remember some of the front line branch staff will have had to deal with people who were loosing their homes and livelihoods  (Don't forget you are being recorded and panic buttons triggers responses) 
4) it's not inactive if the bank is hiking up the overdraft with charges and fees.

STB. wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glass fused light  
you wont be allowed to close the account without clearing the overdraft, you have probably have reset the clock for the bank by your call. And the bank is submitting reports to the Central bank which is used for your credit score.

Are you having a laugh ?

Nope
https://www.centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/what-is-central-credit-register

STB.

Glass fused light wrote: »

Nope
https://www.centralbank.ie/consumer-hub/explainers/what-is-central-credit-register

The Register only collects and stores information on loans of €500 or more.

It does not collect information on loans under €500.

OP tell collections to have no more contact with you. Deal with your branch where you opened the account. They may have a skeleton staff these days but they are still a little customer focussed I'm sure. Any customer relations rep will sort this.

testicles

This post has been deleted.

STB.

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thinks its 15 years for dormants.

Glass fused light

STB. wrote: »

The Register only collects and stores information on loans of €500 or more.


It does not collect information on loans under €500.

Interest and fees x 12 years could come back and scupper the OP's credit score.

Glass fused light

Dormant accounts only applies to cash held, the bank cant transfer a debt

STB.

Glass fused light wrote: »

Interest and fees x 12 years could come back and scupper the OP's credit score.

When the fees are what put the OP's account into the red.

I somehow dont think so and especially when they close it next week.

Glass fused light

STB. wrote: »

When the fees are what put the OP's account into the red.

Yup that's a benefit of just being out to make money

STB. wrote: »

I somehow dont think so and especially when they close it next week.

Agreed once the OP and UB come to an agreement on the outstanding money and it's currently under €500.

longgonesilver

UP has the bank being sending you annual statements?

Newbie18

Appreciate the insight both Glass Fused Light & STB. The back and forth was interesting and I'll do my best to research what was discussed so I can arm myself appropriately. I'm still unsure of how I'll progress. I don't believe I've stated it in a previous reply, but once the account hits -350e, that's when it gets handed over to collections. As such it is likely in the 360/370 range currently.

@longgonesilver - I'm unsure, in the process of checking through old mail currently.


One thing I'd like to just vent about is the phone call. I was contacted off a private/blocked number and a machine asked me to verify my name & DOB. Usually I'd hang up but I was admittedly curious and stuck with it. The agent then came on and asked me to verify the same information again before stating who she was. Eventually it clicked for me and she then proceeded to say how the call was being recorded/monitored for quality and training purposes.

While true, the minute she said that it felt like she was trying to trap me into acknowledging the debt. The entire call was her being on the offensive (which I can understand) and attempting to put words in my mouth. At one point she'd given me this rundown on how I should be more cautious (fair point) and on the ball with my account then explained that it being in the red required a repayment plan blah blah, I asked her why I wasn't contacted via the phone before given that they evidently had my number and she got all huffy, sighed and then said "I'll explain it again, please pay attention to what I'm saying".

She proceeded to run through the entire thing again and not one part of it answered my question, which I just repeated at the end again. Told her I'd be discussing this with my local branch and she, again, tried to pass that off as me acknowledging the debt and went on about repayment plans again. I wanted to question her re: the private number but it slipped my mind.

Rant over - that had been bugging me no end. Thanks again for the insight everyone. Open to any follow-up thoughts if there are any.

Glass fused light

Newbie18 wrote: »

Appreciate the insight both Glass Fused Light & STB. The back and forth was interesting and I'll do my best to research what was discussed so I can arm myself appropriately. I'm still unsure of how I'll progress. I don't believe I've stated it in a previous reply, but once the account hits -350e, that's when it gets handed over to collections. As such it is likely in the 360/370 range currently.

Good did not want to freak you out if you have not been given a number yet
My calc was
220.00 =  4.00 x 55 mths > monthly fee
244.20 =  4.44 x 55 mths >  o/d fee
241.30 = 12.70 x 19 dd >  failed dd fee
705.50 + compound interest

Newbie18 wrote: »

One thing I'd like to just vent about is the phone call.

Most of the conversation will be from a preprepared script. Your debt is small and non complex so wouldn't require an "experienced" staff member. The caller is not likely to answer any unscripted questions.

Newbie18 wrote: »

While true, the minute she said that it felt like she was trying to trap me into acknowledging the debt.

Are you thinking that you have to acknowledge the debt for it to be collectable and have ignored the fact you may have acknowledge that you have an open account which gone into overdraft?

prinzeugen

I had a similar problem with Ulster Bank years ago. Bank fees snowballing.

My loan repayments were to come out my account on the 15th of each month (2 days after my wages went in to allow for delays).

They started to take it out 4-5 days before the 15th which resulted in my account going overdrawn. Fee? €20 right away. Then there would be another €20 fee for the €20 fee and another €20 fee for that. So €60 in fees because they took money out earlier than what was on the loan agreement.

And it went on to the point that I had to get my wages paid into another account as half of it was going on fees.

Told them to go feck themselves and when it was about to go legal I provided my statements and loan agreement, pointed out the dates and never heard anything again.

9 years now.

4ensic15

Ulster Bank are terrible.

Glass fused light

Prinzeugen in your described situation the bank did not have a leg to stand on. Your bank was clearly in breach of the contract terms you both agreed to if the loan repayment was comming out before the agreed date.

It's easy for an active overdrawn account can spiral out of control when the bank fee for any rejected direct debits start to hit. The branch staff would have discretion on active accounts. But they definitely should have investigated and cancelled the fees once they pulled the paperwork.

In your situation if you had been charged fees and interest in error, the bank should have repaid any fees they charged as a result of the breach. Whom ever was dealing with your case should have come back to you on receipt of the loan agreement but more important they should have arranged for the money to be repaid into your account. If you still have the paperwork it may be worth your while to pull it all out again for a quick read and pop into a branch to see if the account is active on their system.

Evd-Burner

prinzeugen wrote: »

I had a similar problem with Ulster Bank years ago. Bank fees snowballing.

My loan repayments were to come out my account on the 15th of each month (2 days after my wages went in to allow for delays).

They started to take it out 4-5 days before the 15th which resulted in my account going overdrawn. Fee? €20 right away. Then there would be another €20 fee for the €20 fee and another €20 fee for that. So €60 in fees because they took money out earlier than what was on the loan agreement.

And it went on to the point that I had to get my wages paid into another account as half of it was going on fees.

Told them to go feck themselves and when it was about to go legal I provided my statements and loan agreement, pointed out the dates and never heard anything again.

9 years now.

Note to self, do not go with an ulster bank mortgage.

prinzeugen

Glass fused light wrote: »

Prinzeugen in your described situation the bank did not have a leg to stand on. Your bank was clearly in breach of the contract terms you both agreed to if the loan repayment was comming out before the agreed date.

It's easy for an active overdrawn account can spiral out of control when the bank fee for any rejected direct debits start to hit. The branch staff would have discretion on active accounts. But they definitely should have investigated and cancelled the fees once they pulled the paperwork.

In your situation if you had been charged fees and interest in error, the bank should have repaid any fees they charged as a result of the breach. Whom ever was dealing with your case should have come back to you on receipt of the loan agreement but more important they should have arranged for the money to be repaid into your account. If you still have the paperwork it may be worth your while to pull it all out again for a quick read and pop into a branch to see if the account is active on their system.

I stopped using the account and stopped repayments on the loan (there was only €400 outstanding). They passed it to the collections dept looking for over €2000 (€400 odd left on loan and over €1600 in fees).

Each time I got a letter from them or a solicitor threatening legal action, I pulled out the paperwork and told them to feck off.

They gave up and I have not heard a thing in 9 years so I wont be giving them a call anytime soon!

Glass fused light

prinzeugen wrote: »

I stopped using the account and stopped repayments on the loan (there was only €400 outstanding). They passed it to the collections dept looking for over €2000 (€400 odd left on loan and over €1600 in fees).

Each time I got a letter from them or a solicitor threatening legal action, I pulled out the paperwork and told them to feck off.

You could have written back in stages and had weeks of fun playing letter tennis. Eg ask them to confirm the loan repayment date. Then the actual payment dates. Then look for an explanation as to why the dates differed. If the person dealing with the file had not copped on. Then for each payment date ask for a recalculation of what your current account should have been. Then why the fees were being charged. Then a recalc sans fees.

prinzeugen wrote: »

They gave up and I have not heard a thing in 9 years so I wont be giving them a call anytime soon!

If the total fees they deducted before you stopped using the account and the payments on the loan were more than €400 they owe you back the difference. They would be obliged to repay the fees and would have a right to offset the debt ( offset is usually buried in the small print). But if not, you could justify it as compensation for the stress of having to live on reduced funds due to bank misappropriating your wages.

But I can understand why you don't want to call them.

prinzeugen

Glass fused light wrote: »

You could have written back in stages and had weeks of fun playing letter tennis. Eg ask them to confirm the loan repayment date. Then the actual payment dates. Then look for an explanation as to why the dates differed. If the person dealing with the file had not copped on. Then for each payment date ask for a recalculation of what your current account should have been. Then why the fees were being charged. Then a recalc sans fees.



If the total fees they deducted before you stopped using the account and the payments on the loan were more than €400 they owe you back the difference. They would be obliged to repay the fees and would have a right to offset the debt ( offset is usually buried in the small print). But if not, you could justify it as compensation for the stress of having to live on reduced funds due to bank misappropriating your wages.

But I can understand why you don't want to call them.

Oh I played letter tennis! Made a point of it after I called them asking to speak to the person that had sent me a letter, only to be told they had left months ago and it was a computer generated signature!

Found some of my old statements and it wasn't just the loan that came out early. It was the quarterly fees as well. Another €60 each time. (€60 was the limit they seemed to charge).

In hindsight I should have tried to get some money back from them but they have not bothered me so I am happy..

There were warning signs when they got my surname wrong when I opened the account.

Glass fused light

prinzeugen wrote: »

Oh I played letter tennis! Made a point of it after I called them asking to speak to the person that had sent me a letter, only to be told they had left months ago and it was a computer generated signature!

Found some of my old statements and it wasn't just the loan that came out early. It was the quarterly fees as well. Another €60 each time. (€60 was the limit they seemed to charge).

In hindsight I should have tried to get some money back from them but they have not bothered me so I am happy..

There were warning signs when they got my surname wrong when I opened the account.

€60 was a massive charge and it only takes 7 transactions to cover the loan balance.

On hearing about the computer saying no I think I would have lost it and told them I would contact them via the CEO.

Strange about the quarterly fee, it should have been generic and automated across all accounts, I wonder if this was a precursor to the IT melt down in 2012.