Forfeiting Australian driving licence for Irish driving licence

aido79

I am currently living in Australia but returning to Ireland next year. My Irish driving licence has expired and I have been informed that I will need to forfeit my Australian driving licence to obtain an Irish driving licence.
This means as an Australian citizen it would be illegal for me to drive in Australia while on holidays in the future as citizens are not allowed to drive on foreign licences.

I have asked the NDSL to show me the legislation that proves they can do this but so far they have just given me a link showing that my application must be accompanied by my Australian licence but nothing to say that the licence cannot be returned or cancelled.

I'm just wondering where I stand with this and what gives the NDSL the right to say I can't drive in a country where I am a citizen.

osarusan

aido79 wrote: »

I am currently living in Australia but returning to Ireland next year. My Irish driving licence has expired and I have been informed that I will need to forfeit my Australian driving licence to obtain an Irish driving licence.
This means as an Australian citizen it would be illegal for me to drive in Australia while on holidays in the future as citizens are not allowed to drive on foreign licences.

I have asked the NDSL to show me the legislation that proves they can do this but so far they have just given me a link showing that my application must be accompanied by my Australian licence but nothing to say that the licence cannot be returned or cancelled.

I'm just wondering where I stand with this and what gives the NDSL the right to say I can't drive in a country where I am a citizen.

I used a Japanese licence to transfer to an Irish one and didn't have to forfeit it, iirc. I submitted all the documents (can't remember what they all were) and in the end I got my Japanese licence back. I don't remember if I made some verbal commitment to forfeit it afterwards (I never did so anyway, and used my Japanese licence afterwards).

I would be very surprised if the NDSL have the power to interfere with the Australian equivalent of the NDSL, so how does it work? Do you need to provide a document showing that you have forfeited it or something?

EDIT: Although I did find this on the NDLS site:

If you exchanged an Irish driving licence in a recognised state for a driving licence issued by that state, you must submit that licence to the NDLS when applying for an Irish driving licence.

Is your Australian licence one that was originally transferred from an existing Irish one? In my case, I actually got my licence in Japan after lessons and a test.

source

It’s not that NDLS have the right to interfere with Australian legislation.
In Ireland if you’re normally resident here (185 days out of the year) you must exchange your foreign licence for an Irish one.
You are stating that Australian legislation requires citizens to drive on Australian licences only.
The issue here is that there appears to be a contradiction between the two pieces of legislation. If you don’t want to surrender your Australian licence you can go through the normal driver training and sit a test to get your Irish licence.
Also this is not a situation unique to Ireland, pretty much all countries, including Australia require you to obtain a local licence once you’re normally resident in that country and to surrender your original licence.

ohnonotgmail

How long has your irish licence been expired? if it is less than 10 years then you can just renew as normal, no need to exchange your foreign licence.

aido79

osarusan wrote: »

I used a Japanese licence to transfer to an Irish one and didn't have to forfeit it, iirc. I submitted all the documents (can't remember what they all were) and in the end I got my Japanese licence back. I don't remember if I made some verbal commitment to forfeit it afterwards (I never did so anyway, and used my Japanese licence afterwards).

I would be very surprised if the NDSL have the power to interfere with the Australian equivalent of the NDSL, so how does it work? Do you need to provide a document showing that you have forfeited it or something?

EDIT: Although I did find this on the NDLS site:


Is your Australian licence one that was originally transferred from an existing Irish one? In my case, I actually got my licence in Japan after lessons and a test.

I'm not sure if I'm right but to me it sounds like I hand over my Australian driving licence to the NDSL and don't get it back.

Yes I originally transferred my Irish licence for an Australian licence but the licence was returned so I presumed it would be the same in this case.

aido79

source wrote: »

It’s not that NDLS have the right to interfere with Australian legislation.
In Ireland if you’re normally resident here (185 days out of the year) you must exchange your foreign licence for an Irish one.
You are stating that Australian legislation requires citizens to drive on Australian licences only.
The issue here is that there appears to be a contradiction between the two pieces of legislation. If you don’t want to surrender your Australian licence you can go through the normal driver training and sit a test to get your Irish licence.
Also this is not a situation unique to Ireland, pretty much all countries, including Australia require you to obtain a local licence once you’re normally resident in that country and to surrender your original licence.

The difference is in Australia the original licence is returned to you.
I have no problem with obtaining an Irish driving licence. I just have a problem with them confiscating(for want of a better word) my Australian licence.

aido79

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

How long has your irish licence been expired? if it is less than 10 years then you can just renew as normal, no need to exchange your foreign licence.

Thanks for that. My licence will only be expired less than 2 years so this will be the route I will take.

Peregrinus

aido79 wrote: »

I am currently living in Australia but returning to Ireland next year. My Irish driving licence has expired and I have been informed that I will need to forfeit my Australian driving licence to obtain an Irish driving licence.
This means as an Australian citizen it would be illegal for me to drive in Australia while on holidays in the future as citizens are not allowed to drive on foreign licences . . . .

I don't think this is correct. Australian residents are not permitted to drive on foreign licences. But an Australian citizen who is resident in, e.g., the UK and has a UK licence can drive on that licence while making visits to Australia. There's a limit to the lenght of the visit - I think it might be three months, but don't quote me on it.

If you have to surrender your Australian licence to obtain an Irish licence and later relocate to Australia permanently, you can then exchange your Irish licence for an Australian licence.

aido79

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think this is correct. Australian residents are not permitted to drive on foreign licences. But an Australian citizen who is resident in, e.g., the UK and has a UK licence can drive on that licence while making visits to Australia. There's a limit to the lenght of the visit - I think it might be three months, but don't quote me on it.

If you have to surrender your Australian licence to obtain an Irish licence and later relocate to Australia permanently, you can then exchange your Irish licence for an Australian licence.

Thank you for correcting me on that. Much appreciated.

GM228

Remember a recognised licence allows you to exchange for an Irish licence, not simply to obtain an Irish licence.

The Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 requires that you both submit and also surrender a recognised driving licence to the NDLS when you exchange the licence, when you exchange the licence the NDLS then check your entitlements and also return the original licence to the issuing authority in Australia (ACT, NSW etc), not to you. The original issuing authority then void the licence and mark it as exchanged on their datababse, or at least this is the way it should be done in other countries according to the agreements, the NDLS are very strict with an exchange and any Irish licence returned to them from abroad is voided and marked as exchanged, I would imagine Australia and the other recognised authorities also honour the agreements accordingly.

You need to remember this is not one sided, such exchange arrangements are a result of bilateral agreements, such agreements must be compatible with each countries requirements for driving licences and our laws (in accordance with EU law - Directive 2006/126/EC) require you to surrender your recognised licence in order to obtain an EU licence, this would be in accordance with the EUs requirement that you can only have one driving licence.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Grant Stevens

If applying for your first Irish licence, then you would have to swap/ surrender your foreign licence, however, since you are simply "renewing" your expired Irish licence then I don't see a problem here. How do they know you have an Australian licence? I wouldn't volunteer this information.

GM228

Grant Stevens wrote: »

If applying for your first Irish licence, then you would have to swap/ surrender your foreign licence, however, since you are simply "renewing" your expired Irish licence then I don't see a problem here. How do they know you have an Australian licence? I wouldn't volunteer this information.

The OP exchanged their Irish licence for an Australian licence in the first place (by right they should not have had the Irish licence returned, but things are or at least were not always done properly).

As a result the NDLS should have the exchange status on file meaning you can't simply get a new Irish licence based on the previous Irish licence.

Grant Stevens

by right they should not have had the Irish licence returned, but things are or at least were not always done properly

Can you direct me to this Australian policy?

Marcusm

aido79 wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'm right but to me it sounds like I hand over my Australian driving licence to the NDSL and don't get it back.

Yes I originally transferred my Irish licence for an Australian licence but the licence was returned so I presumed it would be the same in this case.

aido79 wrote: »

The difference is in Australia the original licence is returned to you.
I have no problem with obtaining an Irish driving licence. I just have a problem with them confiscating(for want of a better word) my Australian licence.

The amusing part is that you only received the Australian licence as a result of the mutual recognition rules; surely you could acknowledge the logicality that on a transfer to a further country (or in this case a transfer back to the original country) that it would be reasonable to expect another swap rather than an issue of a freestanding licence?

ohnonotgmail

Marcusm wrote: »

The amusing part is that you only received the Australian licence as a result of the mutual recognition rules; surely you could acknowledge the logicality that on a transfer to a further country (or in this case a transfer back to the original country) that it would be reasonable to expect another swap rather than an issue of a freestanding licence?

The OP can swap back. But they dont want to. They want to get an irish licence and keep their Australian one.

My Irish driving licence has expired and I have been informed that I will need to forfeit my Australian driving licence to obtain an Irish driving licence.

osarusan

GM228 wrote: »

Remember a recognised licence allows you to exchange for an Irish licence, not simply to obtain an Irish licence.

The Road Traffic (Licensing of Drivers) Regulations 2006 requires that you both submit and also surrender a recognised driving licence to the NDLS when you exchange the licence, when you exchange the licence the NDLS then check your entitlements and also return the original licence to the issuing authority in Australia (ACT, NSW etc), not to you. The original issuing authority then void the licence and mark it as exchanged on their datababse, or at least this is the way it should be done in other countries according to the agreements, the NDLS are very strict with an exchange and any Irish licence returned to them from abroad is voided and marked as exchanged, I would imagine Australia and the other recognised authorities also honour the agreements accordingly.

You need to remember this is not one sided, such exchange arrangements are a result of bilateral agreements, such agreements must be compatible with each countries requirements for driving licences and our laws (in accordance with EU law - Directive 2006/126/EC) require you to surrender your recognised licence in order to obtain an EU licence, this would be in accordance with the EUs requirement that you can only have one driving licence.

My story is that I got my licence in Japan, and, to save time, and also because I am pretty stupid, I got an automatic licence only.

Moved back to Ireland, exchanged the Japanese licence for an Irish one (automatic only), had the Japanese one returned to me - I cannot comment on whether it was revoked on a computer somewhere.

Moved back to Japan, Japanese licence had expired, so used the Irish one to get a new Japanese licence. The guy doing the exchange never noticed the mark denoting 'Automatic only' on my Irish licence, gave me a licence for both automatic and manual, as well as returning the Irish licence, which I still use to this day.

GM228

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Can you direct me to this Australian policy?

It's not simply policy, it's a requirement of Australian law.

Grant Stevens

Link?

Peregrinus

Driving licences are regulated by state law in Australia, not federal law. You'd need to know in what state this licence exchange happened in order to track down the relevant law.

GM228

Peregrinus wrote: »

Driving licences are regulated by state law in Australia, not federal law. You'd need to know in what state this licence exchange happened in order to track down the relevant law.

True, the National Transport Commission (Road Transport Legislation—Driver Licensing) Regulations 2006, which is a national regulation (more appropriately a model regulation) made under the National Transport Commission Act 2003 (which is Federal law) requires state law to implement the provisions of the regulations which states:-

5  Surrender of current driver licence

(1)  If an applicant for a driver licence, or a variation of a driver licence, holds a current Australian driver licence, or a current licence to drive a motor vehicle issued in another country, the applicant must surrender that licence to the driver licensing authority before the issue of a driver licence or amended driver licence.

(2)  Despite clause (1), the driver licensing authority may exempt a person from surrendering a licence issued in another country if the authority is satisfied that it would be unreasonable, in the circumstances, to require that licence to be surrendered.

There is clause (2) which gives an exemption where surrender wouod be unreasonable, but it is also specifically covered under the exchange agreements.