Use of hard shoulder?

Xcellor

I've read that use of hard shoulder to allow cars to pass once it's clear is OK, no driving which is fair enough.

What about use of the hard shoulder to avoid oncoming traffic in the instance where someone overtakes and it's a game of chicken but the hard shoulder is wide enough to prevent a head on? If a motorist failed to pull in would they be partially liable if there was a collision?

Alanstrainor

Xcellor wrote: »

I've read that use of hard shoulder to allow cars to pass once it's clear is OK, no driving which is fair enough.

What about use of the hard shoulder to avoid oncoming traffic in the instance where someone overtakes and it's a game of chicken but the hard shoulder is wide enough to prevent a head on? If a motorist failed to pull in would they be partially liable if there was a collision?

Making your best effort to avoid a collision like the above is always advisable. Provided the shoulder is clear then you should absolutely make use of it in the case of a car on the wrong side of the road. As for blame, the blame would firmly be on the car overtaking into oncoming traffic. Failure to move to the shoulder wouldn't come into it.

Speaking of claims, can I use this post as an opportunity to recommend you to buy a dashcam. It will save you in a scenario like the above. And they are cheap, you should be able to get a good one for under 60 quid.

Samuel T. Cogley

Bit of an aside but the had shoulder should be used to gain speed before rejoining the carriageway. I've seen some very silly maneuvers on Irish motorways.

Xcellor

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Making your best effort to avoid a collision like the above is always advisable. Provided the shoulder is clear then you should absolutely make use of it in the case of a car on the wrong side of the road. As for blame, the blame would firmly be on the car overtaking into oncoming traffic. Failure to move to the shoulder wouldn't come into it.

Speaking of claims, can I use this post as an opportunity to recommend you to buy a dashcam. It will save you in a scenario like the above. And they are cheap, you should be able to get a good one for under 60 quid.

I saw an incident this morning where the road was wide but a small dip obscured an oncoming car it was broken lines , a car pulled out to over take past a lorry but the car coming in the other direction made no effort to move.

I have a dash cam but need to install it! Will do though as its a safe guard for both driver and other road users.

J_R

Hi,

When I meet an oncoming car that is overtaking others, I give then a quick flash to tell them I see them, then move over give them room. If necessary and safe will use the hard shoulder, no problem whatsoever. If they are overtaking a convoy of cars by giving them plenty of room they may now be able to overtake the entire convoy, instead of having to leap-frog a few at a time.

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead, the vast majority of times they will also flash, but it is not a courtesy flash, instead it is a series of quick flashes which I assume means WTF are you doing, get to F$5@ out of my lane.

Unfortunately there is now little or no courtesy on the roads.

amcalester

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

When I meet an oncoming car that is overtaking others, I give then a quick flash to tell them I see them, then move over give them room. If necessary and safe will use the hard shoulder, no problem whatsoever. If they are overtaking a convoy of cars by giving them plenty of room they may now be able to overtake the entire convoy, instead of having to leap-frog a few at a time.

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead, the vast majority of times they will also flash, but it is not a courtesy flash, instead it is a series of quick flashes which I assume means WTF are you doing, get to F$5@ out of my lane.

Unfortunately there is now little or no courtesy on the roads.

Cars really shouldn't overtake into on-coming traffic.

Surprised that has to be said.

Xcellor

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

When I meet an oncoming car that is overtaking others, I give then a quick flash to tell them I see them, then move over give them room. If necessary and safe will use the hard shoulder, no problem whatsoever. If they are overtaking a convoy of cars by giving them plenty of room they may now be able to overtake the entire convoy, instead of having to leap-frog a few at a time.

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead, the vast majority of times they will also flash, but it is not a courtesy flash, instead it is a series of quick flashes which I assume means WTF are you doing, get to F$5@ out of my lane.

Unfortunately there is now little or no courtesy on the roads.

Yes. This exactly.

When I see a car overtaking and its safe and the road is wide, good visibility I will pull temporarily into the hard shoulder to avoid the other motorist feeling panic, it's hard to judge oncoming car speed and often when you pull out to overtake all cars are bunched up making it impossible to pull back in so you end up having to overtake more.

And the asshole who flashes because he/she is leaving no space and forces you to squeeze in. **** ***

Seriously if you dont want to overtake hang back and leave several cars space of distance...

J_R

amcalester wrote: »

Cars really shouldn't overtake into on-coming traffic.

Surprised that has to be said.

Hi

My POST

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead,

Obviously I do not overtake into on-coming traffic

Surprised that has to be said

Xcellor

amcalester wrote: »

Cars really shouldn't overtake into on-coming traffic.

Surprised that has to be said.

In an ideal world correct. But there are sometimes conditions which cause the above to happen.

- Motorist up ahead pulls out of side road without looking after overtaking motorist has already commited to overtake.
- Overtaking motorist is unable to pull back and has to overtake more cars because of tail gating.
- Motorist that is being overtaken decides to speed up when he/she sees they are being overtaken.
etc.

Alanstrainor

Xcellor wrote: »

I saw an incident this morning where the road was wide but a small dip obscured an oncoming car it was broken lines , a car pulled out to over take past a lorry but the car coming in the other direction made no effort to move.

I have a dash cam but need to install it! Will do though as its a safe guard for both driver and other road users.

If the overtaking car could not see ahead and make absolutely sure the road was clear, they should not have been overtaking. As for the car not making an effort to avoid a collision, who knows really, poor driving, panic, a 'deer in the headlights' moment?

But the answer to the original question is yes, make use of the hard shoulder when needed. Especially when trying to avoid a collision.

Good thread OP, interesting topic.

amcalester

J_R wrote: »

Hi

My POST

Obviously I do not overtake into on-coming traffic

Surprised that has to be said

Sounds like you're overtaking where you shouldn't.

If this is a regular occurrence for you, the problem is not a lack of courtesy on the other motorists part, it's poor driving on yours.

Rubberchikken

In an ideal world no one should overtake into oncoming traffic. Also shouldn't overtake if they cant see ahead that they will be able to.overtake and pull on without risking other peoples safety.

Hard shoulder used to undertake is getting more common imo. Have had it happen to me again the other day by one guy and then the van behind him and the car behind him decided to follow. Very stupid and a close call as a few hundred yards later there was a car parked on the hard shoulder. But thats driving today i guess

amcalester

Xcellor wrote: »

In an ideal world correct. But there are sometimes conditions which cause the above to happen.

- Motorist up ahead pulls out of side road without looking after overtaking motorist has already commited to overtake.
- Overtaking motorist is unable to pull back and has to overtake more cars because of tail gating.
- Motorist that is being overtaken decides to speed up when he/she sees they are being overtaken.
etc.

-Shouldn't overtake where there are side-roads ahead, poor driving.
-Shouldn't overtake a line of cars unless there is space to do so. Tail-gating or not.
- Fair enough but just pull back in behind. It's not a drag race.

Xcellor

amcalester wrote: »

Sounds like you're overtaking where you shouldn't.

If this is a regular occurrence for you, the problem is not a lack of courtesy on the other motorists part, it's poor driving on yours.

Roads and traffic are dynamic and constantly changing, when you make a decision to overtake you use best judgement with the information that is available at the time and the knowledge of the road conditions etc

Drivers can close gaps that existed beforehand, the road which appeared to be clear had a hidden dip but yet there are broken lines. etc.

A sensible motorist should realise this which is why moving into the hard shoulder on the other side of the road should be done...

Xcellor

amcalester wrote: »

-Shouldn't overtake where there are side-roads ahead, poor driving.
-Shouldn't overtake a line of cars unless there is space to do so. Tail-gating or not.
- Fair enough but just pull back in behind. It's not a drag race.

You don't seem to be grasping that the situation can change AFTER you've started to overtake.

Can you provide some reference on the "Shouldn't overtake where there are side-roads ahead, poor driving." as this would stop overtaking where broken lines exist on the majority of irish roads as nearly every N road would have side roads but still be marked with broken line to allow overtaking.

amcalester

Xcellor wrote: »

Roads and traffic are dynamic and constantly changing, when you make a decision to overtake you use best judgement with the information that is available at the time and the knowledge of the road conditions etc

Drivers can close gaps that existed beforehand, the road which appeared to be clear had a hidden dip but yet there are broken lines. etc.

A sensible motorist should realise this which is why moving into the hard shoulder on the other side of the road should be done...

Roads don't change though, at least not in the time it takes to safely overtake.

I agree with you about moving to the hard shoulder to avoid a collision, but if a motorists finds themselves in a situation where they are on the wrong side of the road and on-coming traffic has to take evasive action then they should have a think about their driving style.

amcalester

Xcellor wrote: »

You don't seem to be grasping that the situation can change AFTER you've started to overtake.

Can you provide some reference on the "Shouldn't overtake where there are side-roads ahead, poor driving." as this would stop overtaking where broken lines exist on the majority of irish roads as nearly every N road would have side roads but still be marked with broken line to allow overtaking.

Yeah sure, Rules of the Road page 55

You must not overtake when
You are at or near a pelican crossing, zebra crossing or at pedestrian
signals.
A traffic sign or road marking prohibits it.
You are approaching a junction.
You are on the approach to a corner, bend, dip in the road, hump-back
bridge, brow of a hill or on a narrow road.
You are in the left-hand lane of a dual carriageway or motorway when
traffic is moving at normal speed.
It would at any time cause danger or inconvenience to another road user

LINK

keyboard_cat

J_R wrote: »

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead, the vast majority of times they will also flash, but it is not a courtesy flash, instead it is a series of quick flashes which I assume means WTF are you doing, get to F$5@ out of my lane.

Unfortunately there is now little or no courtesy on the roads.

Don't overtake unless you can see the road ahead is completely clear and you are confident you will be able to complete the manoeuvre in that space.
The other oncoming driver is completely correct to flash you. you are endangering them and expecting them to change course to prevent a potential crash

To answer the op yes move into the hard shoulder if necessary (don't forget to indicate this will warn any drivers behind you and the oncoming driver)
You shouldn't have to as another driver should not put you in that position but as my driving instructor said you don't need another car in the side of you to prove you are right

J_R

keyboard_cat wrote: »

Don't overtake unless you can see the road ahead is completely clear and you are confident you will be able to complete the manoeuvre in that space.
The other oncoming driver is completely correct to flash you. you are endangering them and expecting them to change course to prevent a potential crash

To answer the op yes move into the hard shoulder if necessary (don't forget to indicate this will warn any drivers behind you and the oncoming driver)
You shouldn't have to as another driver should not put you in that position but as my driving instructor said you don't need another car in the side of you to prove you are right

Hi,
as poster Xcellor said conditions can change and he gave just a few reasons. Just one further example, the car you are overtaking can speed up.

I would not indicate. Indicating left could be interpreted by a following car that you are giving them the road and they might overtake. Especially if you had been travelling an excessive distance from the left. (They may not see the on-coming car, poor eyesight, and/or your car partly blocking their view).

I used to tell my pupils, we will put it in your headstone "But I had the right-of-way"

GreeBo

Xcellor wrote: »

You don't seem to be grasping that the situation can change AFTER you've started to overtake.

Then maybe you should stop overtaking and pull back in?

J_R wrote:

When I meet an oncoming car that is overtaking others, I give then a quick flash to tell them I see them

This is crazy, stop doing this.

J_R

keyboard_cat wrote: »

Don't overtake unless you can see the road ahead is completely clear and you are confident you will be able to complete the manoeuvre in that space.
The other oncoming driver is completely correct to flash you. you are endangering them and expecting them to change course to prevent a potential crash

To answer the op yes move into the hard shoulder if necessary (don't forget to indicate this will warn any drivers behind you and the oncoming driver)
You shouldn't have to as another driver should not put you in that position but as my driving instructor said you don't need another car in the side of you to prove you are right

Hi.
see my mistake. Should have said IN THE DISTANCE,

Therefore should have posted,

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears IN THE DISTANCE ahead ,

I have never forced a car to take evasive action due to my overtaking. I either drop back, if safe insert myself into the convoy or again if safe speed up get in before they arrive, let him go unhindered on his selfish way.

Xcellor

amcalester wrote: »

Yeah sure, Rules of the Road page 55



LINK

I don't see anything about not overtaking when there is a side road ahead and you are on the main road. A junction is a different situation as it requires you to stop or yield so obviously overtaking here would be dangerous.

amcalester

Xcellor wrote: »

I don't see anything about not overtaking when there is a side road ahead and you are on the main road. A junction is a different situation as it requires you to stop or yield so obviously overtaking here would be dangerous.

There’s your mistake; a junction is a junction, it doesn’t stop being a junction just because you are on the main road.

keyboard_cat

J_R wrote: »

I would not indicate. Indicating left could be interpreted by a following car that you are giving them the road and they might overtake. Especially if you had been travelling an excessive distance from the left. (They may not see the on-coming car, poor eyesight, and/or your car partly blocking their view).

You should of course indicate you are moving off course this shows your intent to the oncoming driver so they don't panic and go into your hard shoulder as you go into it to avoid him.

Also it is warning to the driver behind if the driver misinterprets that information that is their issue but indicating, the vast majority of drivers don't blindly overtake at the first sign of an indicator and those drivers will benefit from you indicating

J_R wrote: »

I have never forced a car to take evasive action due to my overtaking. I either drop back, if safe insert myself into the convoy or again if safe speed up get in before they arrive, let him go unhindered on his selfish way.

Why is he selfish? Do you expect oncoming cars to move into the hard shoulder so you can overtake a convoy of cars?

Kensei

I just use the hard shoulder when I need to let Ambulance/Police pass, when some schmuck decides to overtake several trucks at once, or when I need to consult a map, or worst case scenario, take a piss Obviously don't do that on a motorway though, with Ambulance/Fire/Police being an exception.
Also it's a good spot to pick up speed if you're merging, but generally it's best to wait out the traffic instead of attempting a merge from the shoulder.

But to answer the question, yeah, if you got things coming ur way, get out of the way.

J_R

keyboard_cat wrote: »

You should of course indicate you are moving off course this shows your intent to the oncoming driver so they don't panic and go into your hard shoulder as you go into it to avoid him.

Also it is warning to the driver behind if the driver misinterprets that information that is their issue but indicating, the vast majority of drivers don't blindly overtake at the first sign of an indicator and those drivers will benefit from you indicating




Why is he selfish? Do you expect oncoming cars to move into the hard shoulder so you can overtake a convoy of cars?

Hi,
i Posted

J_R wrote: »

Hi,

Now if the situation is reversed, I am overtaking, and a car appears ahead, the vast majority of times they will also flash, but it is not a courtesy flash, instead it is a series of quick flashes which I assume means WTF are you doing, get to F$5@ out of my lane.

Unfortunately there is now little or no courtesy on the roads.

After the warning flashing, I do not expect them to show that little bit of consideration and courtesy but to selfishly and stupidly stay in the middle of the road. Therefore I return to the left.

If I can, I always give way. To me, no problem whatsoever. The driver of the oncoming car may be in somewhat same situation as this father, from the Irish Independent:- THE father of a four-year-old girl who suffers from a severe form of epilepsy fears the lack of ambulances in Sligo is putting his daughter‘s life in danger. .

Learners should be taught to share the roads.

Also it is not always necessary to indicate but if an indicator could be misunderstood it is better and safer not to indicate,