What law applies in an airplane?

Ahhhh for forks sake!

Imagine a flight with a G registration departs EIDW bound for JFK, on board, a German citizen lashes out and assaults a cabin crew, the plane makes an emergency landing in Nova Scotia where the cabin crew dies from injuries.

Would the person be answerable to:

• UK because that's where the plane is registered.
• Ireland because it departed from there.
• Canada, because that's where the person died and that's where the man will presumably have been arrested.
• Germany, his country of residence / citizenship.

Fann Linn

Having worked on UK registered ships I was working and operating under UK legislation despite being an Irish citizen.

That didn't stop me coming into contact however with another jurisdiction whenever and wherever we docked.

As an example, I worked with a black lad who was previously in the RN. When his ship docked in South Africa on courtesy visits, he was still obliged under the apartheid regime, to dissacoiate frm his white crewmates in relation to bus and rail travel ad other regulations.

Not a nice time.

goingnowhere

Its complex...

UK as country of registration generally applies while airborne, the licensing and certification of the aircraft, crew and procedures would have to agree with UK law

Then its all Tokyo, Montreal and other legal agreements

Canada, assuming the attacker is still alive upon landing (not likely in the current world) who likely arrest and charge anyone who kicked off onboard an aircraft.

Ireland and Germany have no interest at all really, if it was a German or Irish citizen killed then they would have an interest

Where the attack took place is also relevant, i.e. if its over Greenland, its not Canada...

Ahhhh for forks sake!

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its complex...

UK as country of registration generally applies while airborne, the licensing and certification of the aircraft, crew and procedures would have to agree with UK law

Then its all Tokyo, Montreal and other legal agreements

Canada, assuming the attacker is still alive upon landing (not likely in the current world) who likely arrest and charge anyone who kicked off onboard an aircraft.

Ireland and Germany have no interest at all really, if it was a German or Irish citizen killed then they would have an interest

Where the attack took place is also relevant, i.e. if its over Greenland, its not Canada...

Country of registration? So if someone kicked off on a FR flight from Helsinki to Rome, they'd be answerable to Ireland because of it's EI reg?

The country it lands in. Look up any reported incidents of air rage, they are always dealt with in the country they divert to and land in.

Tenger

Maurice Riordan wrote: »

Country of registration? So if someone kicked off on a FR flight from Helsinki to Rome, they'd be answerable to Ireland because of it's EI reg?

He did refer to "licencing and certification".
Airline's generally follow the rules of their home base, But if you land in a nation and arrest someone then that nation rules will apply unless the person is then deported to another nation.

The Tokyo and Montreal convention's rules apply to all ICAO airlines. Thus any individual misbehaving can be trying under those international agreements regardless of physical location, aircraft reg or personal nationality.

A common misconception by misbehaving passengers is that "I have rights" However aircraft are not public spaces, you are on a private vehicle having bought a ticket and agreed to the terms and conditons. If you disobey or fail to comply with an instruction from the aircraft commander or their representative then you have broken the Ts&Cs and thus forfeited your position.

Alkers

What about something that is legal in one state and not the other? Like a 17 year old who can drink beer in Germany but not Ireland?

goingnowhere

Rules of country of registration apply, however access to certain countries airspace may introduce requirements to be 'dry' while overhead

Tenger

goingnowhere wrote: »

Rules of country of registration apply, however access to certain countries airspace may introduce requirements to be 'dry' while overhead

Exactly. EG on Aer Lingus flights from US it’s 18 for alcohol.
Many airlines flying into Saudi Arabia will stop serving alcohol upon approaching Saudi airspace.

L1011

Pretty certain I got a Warsteiner on LH in decades past when 16. Definitely 17 at oldest as it felt slightly wrong despite being able to drink in bars when I got there!

1123heavy

Maurice Riordan wrote: »

Imagine a flight with a G registration departs EIDW bound for JFK, on board, a German citizen lashes out and assaults a cabin crew, the plane makes an emergency landing in Nova Scotia where the cabin crew dies from injuries.

Would the person be answerable to:

• UK because that's where the plane is registered.
• Ireland because it departed from there.
• Canada, because that's where the person died and that's where the man will presumably have been arrested.
• Germany, his country of residence / citizenship.

I hear EASA are struggling for ATPL Air Law question makers, you'll have the job right away from just giving them that question !

Stovepipe

If there is an accident or incident to an aircraft abroad, the Operator will usually defer to local investigatorial authorities, both Police and Aeronautical. It's usually as a consequence of being members of ICAO.

goingnowhere

An incident involving an Irish registered aircraft will always fall under the AAIU in Dublin, however it may then be delegated to the country of occurrence.

So the fire on the BA 777 in Vegas is investigated by the UK AAIB.

Any passenger issue will typically fall to the country where you land. However while in the air the commander of the aircraft has the legal power to do anything he/she deems necessary to the safe conduct of the flight

smurfjed

@goingnowhere, are you sure about Vegas and AAIB? I would have expected the NTSB to do it in accordance with ICAO Annex 13

4.1 The State of Occurrence shall forward a notification of an accident or serious incident, with a minimum of delay and
by the most suitable and quickest means available, to:
a) the State of Registry;
b) the State of the Operator;
c) the State of Design;
d) the State of Manufacture; and
e) the International Civil Aviation Organization, when the aircraft involved is of a maximum mass of over 2 250 kg or is
a turbojet-powered aeroplane.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

An incident involving an Irish registered aircraft will always fall under the AAIU in Dublin, however it may then be delegated to the country of occurrence.

So the fire on the BA 777 in Vegas is investigated by the UK AAIB.

Any incident is investigated by the relevant authority where the incident happened, the registered countries authority then nominates an accredited representative to assist the investigation as advisors, this is in accordance with the provisions of ICAO Annex 13.

The BA777 incident is under investigation by the NTSB (not the AAIB), with the AAIB appointing British Airways and the Civil Aviation Authority as technical advisors to the NTSB.

Stovepipe

It also has two elements, practicality and politeness. It's impractical for the small Irish AAIU to attend every accident to every Irish-reg'd aircraft that's operating outside the country (several hundred) so, as an act of politeness, they ask the local authority to deal with it and accredit them for access purposes and they get involved as and when they can. Also, the relevant manufacturers of the aircraft/engines/systems will be kept informed and may formally be invited to participate, and the local police will invariably be involved, because in some countries, an aircraft crash is an automatic crime scene and the police are included in the call-out list by default. In the event of a military accident, the military investigation may also be paralleled by a civil investigation.

smurfjed

so, as an act of politeness, they ask the local authority to deal with it and accredit them for access purposes

Totally incorrect as we have stated above, an incident / accident investigation is controlled by ICAO Annexe 13, it doesn't deal with politeness.

Stovepipe

I used the word politeness because in some countries, the State of Registry's AAIU people will not be allowed in unless they are formally invited, Annex 13 not withstanding, and a protocol exists for such reasons. I assure you that official paper and emails will change hands before one foreign foot steps onto someone else's soil, especially if there are issues about religion, language, local conflict, politics, the presence of the military, access to restricted areas, carriage of weapons or military personnel, the police and different kinds of police, accreditation and so on. It isn't as cut and dried as just grabbing a bag and jumping on a 'plane. Ireland and the UK work well together on this issue and when accidents happen, it's usually a matter of a few phone calls to get the ball rolling. You have a accident a few time zones South and east of here and it's a different matter. Annex 13 is all very well but local politics and attitudes can make things very different.

Davidth88

Sort of off thread but related

Years ago I used to mix with a lot of Cabin Crew ( both long haul/mixed and short haul ) from the what was then ' The Worlds Favorite Airline'

I remember asking a CSD what they did if someone died...... his response was they would move the people next them away etc ( clear the row ) and leave them there , so of course I pushed and asked what if the flight was full ... apparently the toilets might be used. I then asked about where the death cert would be issued , and it would be the place of arrival.

He had never had to deal with such a situation and had been flying for about 15 years at that point.

smurfjed

I then asked about where the death cert would be issued

If the person is seriously ill or they suspect that they may have died., then the aircraft will divert and land. If the person dies and this can be certified by a qualified person, then the aircraft may continue to its destination.

Stovepipe

We had a person die on a flight and the procedure was as Davidth88 described. After they landed, the pax were offloaded as usual and the dead man was examined by the local paramedics and then taken off via the rear door, after the bags were offloaded and his own bag secured. He was lifted off in the lifter that is used to get wheelchair pax on and off. After that, it's the airport morgue or the nearest hospital.

ironclaw

This video discusses this and a lot of his aviation videos are really worth a watch.