Tagging on at Irish Rail and off at LUAS fine

mmclo

Thought I could tag on at IR and off at LUAS...seems not, so much for integrated ticketing! Got fined this morning

What chance do I have on appeal, I always thought this was the way and it certainly appears that way from the way LEAP is promoted and of course in most other cities!

markpb

mmclo wrote: »

Thought I could tag on at IR and off at LUAS...seems not, so much for integrated ticketing! Got fined this morning

How did you leave an Irish Rail station without tagging off? Was the gate left open?

mmclo

markpb wrote: »

How did you leave an Irish Rail station without tagging off? Was the gate left open?

Most of the smaller ones are these days, its Broombridge, don't think there is ever staff there. Only the biggest ones are staffed. Seems I'm always at a disadvantage as have been doing this a lot since cross city started and have effectively tagged on twice but never off!

marvin80

You can appeal it but in my opinion you won't have any success.

Whether or not you're in the right or not is one thing but their appeals process is a joke.
You'll appeal it through their website and get back a generic letter saying the "appeals board" reviewed your situation and agreed you have to pay the fine.
That's it then, either pay it or fight your case in court.

elbyrneo

mmclo wrote: »

Thought I could tag on at IR and off at LUAS...seems not, so much for integrated ticketing! Got fined this morning

What chance do I have on appeal, I always thought this was the way and it certainly appears that way from the way LEAP is promoted and of course in most other cities!

Was this a one off and otherwise on the Leapcard there is a clear record of tagging on/off? If you do that route in that manner you would have record of tagging on at irish rail and getting the max fare, and tagging on again at luas and getting the max fare. If you just have the tag on at irish rail, then clear you should pay.

If a one off on this route and the card history is good otherwise, no harm appealing but chances probably slim of getting anything.

mmclo

elbyrneo wrote: »

Was this a one off and otherwise on the Leapcard there is a clear record of tagging on/off? If you do that route in that manner you would have record of tagging on at irish rail and getting the max fare, and tagging on again at luas and getting the max fare.

This is the case a number of times since the cross city route started

I see they increase the fine to e1,000 if you go to court, looks unconstitutional to me

On closer examination its a standard fare notice so no fine?

ignorance is strength

I’ve got off two fines by quoting from the Railway Safety Act 2005, section 132 (3a) — “A passenger who travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment is guilty of an offence” — and then arguing, with evidence, how I didn’t have intent (mens rea) to avoid payment. Don’t know if that act applies to the Luas (although, if not, I presume there’s an equivalent). And your case is certainly messier. But you might have a good chance if you can show your leap card wasn’t tagged off. Lots of legal jargon too, I would suggest — though not to the point it looks forced.

MOH

If this isn't a one off, and you've been tagging on for IR and off for the Luas then isn't there a chance that apart from the fine you've been massively overpaying?
I presume not tagging off for IR would mean you get charged the maximum fare there. And tagging 'off' for the Luas would actually be a tag on with no corresponding off, so again you'd be paying the maximum fare for that.

punisher5112

I would hazard a guess they weren't tagging off when leaving luas station.

Basically it would be a free luas ride each time.

mmclo

MOH wrote: »

If this isn't a one off, and you've been tagging on for IR and off for the Luas then isn't there a chance that apart from the fine you've been massively overpaying?
I presume not tagging off for IR would mean you get charged the maximum fare there. And tagging 'off' for the Luas would actually be a tag on with no corresponding off, so again you'd be paying the maximum fare for that.

This is correct but can's see any refund!

mmclo

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I’ve got off two fines by quoting from the Railway Safety Act 2005, section 132 (3a) — “A passenger who travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment is guilty of an offence” — and then arguing, with evidence, how I didn’t have intent (mens rea) to avoid payment. Don’t know if that act applies to the Luas (although, if not, I presume there’s an equivalent). And your case is certainly messier. But you might have a good chance if you can show your leap card wasn’t tagged off. Lots of legal jargon too, I would suggest — though not to the point it looks forced.

This is the case so will state it but have little faith in internal appeals. Threatening people with 1k fine ridiculous. Have successfully represented myself in court before but such a deterrent is over the top! I don't see it as getting off btw, I was acting like we have integrated ticketing which all the publicity says we have

MOH

mmclo wrote: »

This is the case so will state it but have little faith in internal appeals. Threatening people with 1k fine ridiculous. Have successfully represented myself in court before but such a deterrent is over the top! I don't see it as getting off btw, I was acting like we have integrated ticketing which all the publicity says we have

If you have a pattern of actually overpaying due to the incorrect tagging you'd think that would help your case .. but then again this is Ireland.

magicbastarder

the problem is that tag on at the start of the journey, and off at the end, only makes sense in a closed system. it does not indicate how much you actually used the system between tag on and tag off.

your tag history will probably be of little use if you use it to advance the argument that you were repeatedly boarding the luas without tagging on.
i'd take the €45 on the chin and move on.

devnull

The fine is valid since if you use the LUAS you must tag on and tag off and if you use Irish Rail you must tag on and tag off. You cannot tag on one system and off on another.

This is pretty clear IMO.

Franz Von Peppercorn

devnull wrote: »

The fine is valid since if you use the LUAS you must tag on and tag off and if you use Irish Rail you must tag on and tag off. You cannot tag on one system and off on another.

This is pretty clear IMO.

It wasn’t clear to the op.

devnull

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It wasn’t clear to the op.

Every piece of literature and guide I've seen on Leap says that you touch on at the start of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS and touch off at the end of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS.

There is nothing to say that you can touch on using one mode and touch off using another.

LUAS - https://about.leapcard.ie/luas
DART - https://about.leapcard.ie/dart

MOH

devnull wrote: »

Every piece of literature and guide I've seen on Leap says that you touch on at the start of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS and touch off at the end of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS.

There is nothing to say that you can touch on using one mode and touch off using another.

LUAS - https://about.leapcard.ie/luas
DART - https://about.leapcard.ie/dart

They're both specifically for a single mode of transport though.
The general How to use your Leap card page is ambiguous, now that I look at it:

Don’t forget to Touch-On before starting your journey to make sure your card is valid for travel. If you don’t Touch-On, you may be prosecuted for fare evasion. Always remember to Touch-Off at the end of your journey on Luas and DART/Commuter Rail.

It doesn't actually make it clear anywhere that you should tag off and on again when changing to a different mode of transport during the same journey

mmclo

MOH wrote: »

They're both specifically for a single mode of transport though.
The general How to use your Leap card page is ambiguous, now that I look at it:


It doesn't actually make it clear anywhere that you should tag off and on again when changing to a different mode of transport during the same journey

All the headlines and the LEAP website talk about "integrated ticketing" in every other city I've done that it involves tagging on at the start and in some at the end, in others its a period of time.

XPS_Zero

You will have very little luck with appeals unless you threaten to take it to court and actually mean it (and they can tell you mean it), that's the reason I got off one when it was an honest mistake with the leap card.

The law requires intent (though in some cases recklessness will get you) in most of these kind of cases, the question legally is did you intend to dodge your fair, and if not was your mistake reasonable in the circumstances ie
It comes down to your state of mind (intent) , now they're not telepaths so your state of mind will be inferred from your actions.

You did make an attempt to pay. What would back you up as others said would be a good leap record of normal payments. Given how widely advertised HOW to use a leap card is I think it's 5050 in court.

You can say all day your intent was not to defraud them of the fare but your actions have to reflect that state of mind and they could easily make the case "it's explained on our website, and on the leap card website how the thing works" and the court could just conclude it was not an honest mistake and fine you again. I'd only take a case if there was really obvious evidence that I wasn't defrauding them (in my case CCTV evidence logged from the day, lucky me Luas is very good at archiving that stuff).

If I were in your shoes I'd not roll the dice, you could try to bluff them saying you'll take it to court (though they could..probably are...reading this so you know...good luck with that lol), and just put it down to a stupid mistake on your part. I made a mistake one time going outside the LEAP zone without realizing it and had to pay the fine. While my intent was not to defraud them the SHZ is all over the websites and leaflets so I would not have had any chance convincing a court of that. For you to get past a case it has to be kinda...unique.

They will say that finding out the basic way the fare system works is the absolute minimum expected of a passenger and thus the case is not reasonable. Keep in mind we live in a common law system where courts set precedents others can cite in their own case, and they have to be really careful what precedents they set so the floodgates don't open to people sayin "ahhh yeah boss me too jayzuz I swear! didn't know ye war meant te tag off that way honest boss!"

MOH

XPS_Zero wrote: »

they could easily make the case "it's explained on our website, and on the leap card website how the thing works"

They will say that finding out the basic way the fare system works is the absolute minimum expected of a passenger and thus the case is not reasonable.

Agree with most of what you're saying, and I probably wouldn't chance court either, but if a passenger looks at the leap card website for how to use their card the information given there actually says tag on at the start, tag off at the end of your journey, which is what the OP was doing. I can only assume they're doing the usual Irish public transport thing of using their own definitions of words, hence "journey" means getting on and off one mode of transport, and not an actual end to end journey.

But there have been plenty of cases in the past of e.g. Irish Rail staff giving incorrect advice to passengers and that hasn't helped, the passenger is still the one who ends up getting fined with no comeback against the company.

XPS_Zero

MOH wrote: »

Agree with most of what you're saying, and I probably wouldn't chance court either, but if a passenger looks at the leap card website for how to use their card the information given there actually says tag on at the start, tag off at the end of your journey, which is what the OP was doing. I can only assume they're doing the usual Irish public transport thing of using their own definitions of words, hence "journey" means getting on and off one mode of transport, and not an actual end to end journey.

But there have been plenty of cases in the past of e.g. Irish Rail staff giving incorrect advice to passengers and that hasn't helped, the passenger is still the one who ends up getting fined with no comeback against the company.

He MAY be able to make the case of the constant references to "integrated ticketing" made him think the situation was indeed integrated (which if he's telling the truth IS what happened).

To which they will say "a quick search of the companies websites reveals this:

https://about.leapcard.ie/dart

When travelling by rail with your Leap card, touch your card on and off the Validator / Gate when entering and exiting the station or platform.

https://about.leapcard.ie/luas

• At the start of your journey, Touch-On at a Luas Validator which is located on the platform
• A default fare will be deducted from the Travel Credit on your card when you Touch-On

• At the end of your journey, remember to Touch-Off at a Luas Validator.

Then they'll play this idiot proof video:

https://about.leapcard.ie/about/using-leap

I'm not saying the OP is an idiot, I can see how you would get confused, when Leap first launched I thought you could do that, that it was a zone system and you calculated a fare across zones but apparently that would be far too smart and logical, the reason given when I asked those in charge?

"sure then you' could be just going a little into the next zone but have to pay a big increase"

(Reminds me of Irish Rails original excuse for no wifi (this is real, not satire) "you'll have to update the hardware and software internet tech changes so regularly, once we install it we'll be constantly updating it" (IE spokescomputer I think his names Kenny). Once again not a parody or satire.)



I can also attest that they send those of us with an FT pass an idiot proof cartoon diagram leaflet telling you how to use it as well (were not paying a fare but they want you to tag on to prove the pass is still valid - as DSP could have remotely killed it or you left the welfare program you were on which will cause the card to block after a period - and to gather usage data in plans to give a fairer subsidy to the companies. This excuse might have passed in court when the Leap first came out but by now I can see them tearing into him in court with print outs from those links ^

It will go like this:

Lawyer/Judge: "do you have a smartphone?"

you: "yes"

lawyer/judge: "do you have a laptop?"

you: "yes"

lawyer / judge: "do you have a tablet?"

you: "yes"

lawyer / judge "yet you did not take 10 seconds when you first got the leap card to check the transport websites to confirm you were using Leap correctly?"

you "no"

lawyer/judge: "did you notice that other passengers were tagging off at the station?"

you: "yes"

laywer / judge "did you not consider that might be because thata's what you have to do?"

you: "they could have been finishing their journey at that point"

lawyer / judge "the cctv shows two passengers got off the train in front of you and proceeded to the Luas with you, did you not notice they tagged off at the rail station?"

(if they saw this you're stung, if you saw it then your case is finished , if you didn't see it it adds to the impression you just don't pay attention so were way too careless if not intentionally dodging fare - they may also just say you had to have seen it you were looking their way at the time so that might screw your credibility)


They may say it's just not credible that a passenger would not attempt to access this basic info as to how the cards worked AND ALSO not notice how other passengers were using them or have others use make him wanna check it out online. My gut says they'd roast you and make you look really guilty even if you are not.

Know why so many lawyers won't let their clients take the stand even when they're innocent? (eg recent rugby trial) because once they can directly ask you questions they can rip you to shreds even if you didn't do anything if they can just paint you as suspicious, and in district court you will have to answer unless you can afford and hire a lawyer for such a small cases, it would cost more than your fine though.

Hilly Bill

If the op can provide evidence that they have been overpaying due to only tagging on for the Luas and train then they might get just a proverbial slap on the wrist for the non payment for the journey they got fined for.

coylemj

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I’ve got off two fines by quoting from the Railway Safety Act 2005, section 132 (3a) — “A passenger who travels or attempts to travel on a railway of a railway undertaking without having previously paid his or her fare, and with intent to avoid such payment is guilty of an offence” — and then arguing, with evidence, how I didn’t have intent (mens rea) to avoid payment.

That is very interesting. I'd say it was a mistake on the part of the parliamentary draughtsman because the 'and' I have emboldened in your post above probably should be an 'or'.

It effectively places the onus of proof of intent on the railway company - they have to show (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the passenger had the intent to avoid paying the fare in addition to the fact that he did not pay.

Though 'mens rea' is not an essential element in a prosecution for a minor breach of the criminal law. For example, there is an absolute prohibition on a civilian driving a car without a driving licence - the Gardai don't have to prove guilty intent and your excuse that you simply forgot to renew it won't get you very far with the judge.

ignorance is strength

coylemj wrote: »

That is very interesting. I'd say it was a mistake on the part of the parliamentary draughtsman because the 'and' I have emboldened in your post above probably should be an 'or'.

It effectively places the onus of proof of intent on the railway company - they have to show (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the passenger had the intent to avoid paying the fare in addition to the fact that he did not pay.

Though 'mens rea' is not an essential element in a prosecution for a minor breach of the criminal law. For example, there is an absolute prohibition on a civilian driving a car without a driving licence - the Gardai don't have to prove guilty intent and your excuse that you simply forgot to renew it won't get you very far with the judge.

I have no legal training, but it seems to me that the barriers at train stations and the common knowledge of a requirement to pay means that the burden of proof lies with the passenger. The problem seems to me to be that the wording allows for one, legally, to absent-mindedly forget to buy a ticket (though proving that seems near impossible, for reasons given).

Replacing “and” with “or” doesn’t seem to clarify it either: someone who intended not to pay but who was inadvertently in possession of a ticket would be guilty of an offence. And nothing would be gained except that the first clause couldn’t be mitigated by the second. If you are right about the impractical onus of proof, I think the only reasonable solution would be to remove the second clause.

beauf

devnull wrote: »

Every piece of literature and guide I've seen on Leap says that you touch on at the start of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS and touch off at the end of your journey on DART and commuter rail or LUAS.

There is nothing to say that you can touch on using one mode and touch off using another.

LUAS - https://about.leapcard.ie/luas
DART - https://about.leapcard.ie/dart

People from other countries will be used to fully integrated systems perhaps for decades. It won't occur to them...

... It's a bit daft tbh.