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Selling a car - test drive insurance?

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  • 24-03-2018 11:51am
    #1
    Secret Seven
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭


    I have a car for sale for 1000. The insurance has been transferred to my new car. What happens when a potential buyer wants to test drive it? Do I ask to see their insurance and license to prove they're eligible to drive the car? Don't want them driving the car and mowing somebody down! If I sell it and they're involved in an accident on their way home then who's responsible? Is it up to me to ensure they have insurance before driving it away?

    I can't drive it either as the insurance has been transferred. What to do?

    Sorry, first time seller!


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    #2
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,401 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Once you sell it it’s not your problem, but the buyer would need to have driving of other cars on their policy to be able to drive yours. This would usually be 3rd party only, but not a big deal on a €1000 car.
    Once it’s their car, then 3rd party extension is invalid


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    #3
    Secret Seven
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Secret Seven


    Thanks, but how will I know they have this? Do I just take their word for it?


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    #4
    Cocobongo
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭Cocobongo


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Once you sell it it’s not your problem, but the buyer would need to have driving of other cars on their policy to be able to drive yours. This would usually be 3rd party only, but not a big deal on a €1000 car.
    Once it’s their car, then 3rd party extension is invalid

    Isn’t that the policies covering driving of other cars require that “other” car to actually be insured, OP car on sale currently has no insurance at all by the looks of it... i could be wrong though


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    #5
    Secret Seven
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Secret Seven


    Correct. Insurance was transferred to new car.


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    #6
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Secret Seven wrote: »
    Thanks, but how will I know they have this? Do I just take their word for it?

    You can ask for their insurance certificate as well as driving licence.
    Wouldn't be common thing to do.
    I've test driven tens if not hundred potential to buy cars, and was never asked by the owner for any documents


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I've never been asked nor never asked a potential buyer about insurance.


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    #8
    Secret Seven
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Secret Seven


    So they take it for a test drive and have an accident or damage the car? Who is liable? At that price it is attracting potential buyers who are first timers or non nationals who have not driven in this country before and who do not have insurance.


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    #9
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It is still your car until papers are signed.
    Ask for their insurance if you will.
    As no-one seems to be insured on the car selling then no-one can drive it.


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    #10
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Secret Seven wrote: »
    So they take it for a test drive and have an accident or damage the car? Who is liable? At that price it is attracting potential buyers who are first timers or non nationals who have not driven in this country before and who do not have insurance.

    The driver is liable. They are liable for damage to your car and liable to damage to third party. But to claim from him, especially if he isn't insured - not an easy thing...

    What's more, even if they are covered to drive your car with the 'Driving other cars' extension, in majority of cases it explicitly excludes the car driven from the cover.


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    #11
    PickleJar
    Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭PickleJar


    I've asked to see a buyer's insurance before and she didn't have any (she was a learner at the time on her parents car) so I drove her and her Dad around in it. I offered to let her Dad drive it but he was fine with it.

    It is a pretty uncommon thing to do but if it bothers you then go for it - just be prepared with a plan if they don't have any.


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    #12
    ravima
    Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭ravima


    The driver is liable.

    as is the owner. Under RTA, both are liable.


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    #13
    CiniO
    Registered Users Posts: 16,089 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    ravima wrote: »
    The driver is liable.

    as is the owner. Under RTA, both are liable.

    Liable for what.
    For prosecution for allowing uninsured car in the road - true - both are liable.

    But for damage caused by driver - it's only driver who is liable.


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    #14
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    CiniO wrote: »
    Liable for what.
    For prosecution for allowing uninsured car in the road - true - both are liable.

    But for damage caused by driver - it's only driver who is liable.

    Sorry Cinio, you're wrong on the second point. Ultimately, the owner of the car is liable if the driver has no cover under his own policy or yours.

    Just to clarify.... if you own a car and you allow an uninsured person to drive it, the blame game (in terms of civil liability) will end up on your doorstep. That means that the motor insurance bureau (which picks up the tab for uninsured drivers) can come calling and sue you for any money they paid out.


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    #15
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,401 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Cocobongo wrote: »
    Isn’t that the policies covering driving of other cars require that “other” car to actually be insured, OP car on sale currently has no insurance at all by the looks of it... i could be wrong though

    The majority don’t require this.


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    #16
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Cocobongo wrote: »
    Isn’t that the policies covering driving of other cars require that “other” car to actually be insured, OP car on sale currently has no insurance at all by the looks of it... i could be wrong though
    colm_mcm wrote: »
    The majority don’t require this.

    +1 only Aviva currently require that the car you borrow has a policy of it's own. Otherwise you are covered if your own policy has 'driving other cars' cover, regardless of whether there is a policy in force for the borrowed car.


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    #17
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    coylemj wrote: »
    Sorry Cinio, you're wrong on the second point. Ultimately, the owner of the car is liable if the driver has no cover under his own policy or yours.

    Just to clarify.... if you own a car and you allow an uninsured person to drive it, the blame game (in terms of civil liability) will end up on your doorstep. That means that the motor insurance bureau (which picks up the tab for uninsured drivers) can come calling and sue you for any money they paid out.

    Why to me, and not the actual driver? Can you quote the relevant regulation?


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    #18
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    grogi wrote: »
    Why to me, and not the actual driver?

    I didn't say the driver had no liability, I was correcting Cinio who claimed that only the driver was liable.

    If you're injured in a car accident, you sue the owner and the driver. If the driver has no insurance cover then an injured person can claim from the MIBI who can seek to recover what they paid out from the car's owner.
    grogi wrote: »
    Can you quote the relevant regulation?

    No.


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    #19
    Secret Seven
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Secret Seven


    Thanks everyone!

    I have a buyer lined up who is not Irish and this will be her first Irish car. I told her she would need to have someone with "driving other cars" on their policy to test drive it for her. I also told her I would have to transfer the insurance back to the car for a few hours to enable this. Looks like I may not need to do this? Once she signs the change of ownership form and I put it in the post immediately I am then devoid of responsibility?

    The alternative is to drive the car to her (bit of a distance) and I'm a bit wary of doing that.


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    #20
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Secret Seven wrote: »
    I have a buyer lined up who is not Irish and this will be her first Irish car. I told her she would need to have someone with "driving other cars" on their policy to test drive it for her. I also told her I would have to transfer the insurance back to the car for a few hours to enable this. Looks like I may not need to do this?

    If the person she brings along to do the test drive is insured with anyone other than Aviva and is the insured person named at the top of the cert. (i.e. being a named driver is no good) and the cert. says they can drive other cars then yes, they will be covered to drive your car.
    Secret Seven wrote: »
    Once she signs the change of ownership form and I put it in the post immediately I am then devoid of responsibility?

    Yes. Legally she becomes the owner when she hands you the money and you give her the keys.


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    #21
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Of course we are not solicitors and nothing in this thread is/was legal advice.


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    #22
    phildin
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭phildin


    I was in a similar position from the buyers perspective. My policy with 25plus had "driving other cars" but I was told that

    1. This only applies if the car in question has been insured within the last 3 months

    and

    2. I don't have a financial interest in the car.

    The second point was strange as they considered financial interest to cover the case where I was test driving a car (I can't see how I can have a financial interest in a car that I don't own but they were adamant that this was the correct interpretation of the policy and since point 1 made it a moot point, I didn't push too much).

    The upshot is that if you're trying to sell a car that isn't covered by your own insurance policy, it might be quite difficult to do so as many potential buyers don't have the cover they might think they have.

    Phil


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    #23
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,361 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    phildin wrote: »
    I was in a similar position from the buyers perspective. My policy with 25plus had "driving other cars" but I was told that .....

    First of all, if you want clarification on cover under your motor policy, do not phone them to ask because you cannot rely on what you are told and that applies whether it's positive (you are covered) or negative.

    The reason is because your contract of insurance is set out in the policy document, your cert. and the schedule of cover they send you after each renewal. Nothing that anyone tells you on the phone can alter the terms and conditions so just do not phone them - read the policy document.

    The default in most cases is that call centre employees are told to say 'no' to every question or, as in your case, to throw mud in the water so it looks like you shouldn't risk it.

    The answer to any question you have is in the policy document.
    phildin wrote: »
    1. This only applies if the car in question has been insured within the last 3 months

    There is no such condition stated in the 25plus policy document.
    phildin wrote: »
    2. I don't have a financial interest in the car.

    You have no financial interest in a car you are considering buying, not a cent so what you were told is BS.

    These are the conditions stated for Driving other Cars....

    Section 7 – Driving Other Cars

    If your certificate of insurance says so, we will also cover you, the policyholder, in the event of an emergency, for your liability to other people while
    you are driving any other private motor car which you do not own or have not hired or leased, as long as
    1. the vehicle is not owned by your employer or hired to them under a hire-purchase or lease agreement
    2. you currently hold a Full European Union (EU) Licence
    3. the use of the vehicle is covered in the certificate of insurance
    4. cover is not provided by any other insurance
    5. you are not connected in any way with the Motor or Licence Trade
    6. you have the owners permission to drive the vehicle
    7. the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition; and
    8. you still have your vehicle and it is not damaged beyond cost-effective repair
    9. The vehicle driven must be of the same size and cylinder capacity as the insured vehicle or alternatively no higher than a 2000cc vehicle


    https://www.25plus.ie/documents/25_Plus_Policy_Wording.pdf


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    #24
    phildin
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭phildin


    Thanks, I'm inclined the agree with you. At the time I felt like I was doing my due diligence; I believed I was covered based on what was in the document and the phone call was just to bolster that position and I was very surprised when the agent told me otherwise. My recollection is that I spent about 30 minutes arguing with the agent, especially on the financial interest issue but he wouldn't budge on it and just kept repeating the same line.

    I recall letting my (different) insurer know on previous occasions when I was taking a car for a test drive. There was no issue with it but it just seemed prudent since I wasn't expecting any pushback on it and it would avoid any nasty surprise if they try to claim subsequently that I wasn't covered.
    The default in most cases is that call centre employees are told to say 'no' to every question or, as in your case, to throw mud in the water so it looks like you shouldn't risk it.

    Sadly I think you're right.


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