WHAT HAPPENS IF NEW HOUSE DOESN'T MEET BER

Digged

Hi I'm starting a new house soon and goin with oil/rads/solar and stove for heating system. We're building mortgage free and our budget is really really tight. What happens if I decided to do without the solars and stove for maybe and year and do them at a later date ?

UrbanFret

Digged wrote: »

Hi I'm starting a new house soon and goin with oil/rads/solar and stove for heating system. We're building mortgage free and our budget is really really tight. What happens if I decided to do without the solars and stove for maybe and year and do them at a later date ?

I believe you would get a provisional ber which would be updated when the remainder of the works was carried out.

Digged

So is actually ok to do this and just do solars and stove when we have the money

sydthebeat

theres some confusion here as to some terminology.

first off, you cant "fail" or "not meet" a BER assessment.
A BER assessment is simply assessment which produces a certificate, which is required at point of sale or rent, or before occupying a new home.

The requirement for providing renewable energy is part of the building regulations, which is a completely different piece of legislation to the one which requires a BER to be carried out.
The confusion occurs because its the same piece of software which checks building regulation compliance, and produces the BER cert.

this software is called DEAP..... it has a dual purpose

so your asking, what happens if you fail the DEAP assessment..... totally different kettle of fish.

if you build something which doesnt comply with the building regulations, then you are breaking the law.
building a house without providing renewable energy, which is required in a new build, is breaking the law.... totally NOT ok to do.

its up to you to choose whether you are happy to break the law or not. No one here will say thats its ok, unless they have disdain for irish law (there are some out there who are like this)

Digged

Ok thanks but what's the deadline on meeting these requirement ? Could I be living in the house 6 months before I fit the solars or stove ? I do intend on doing them

_Brian

The problem can be that by not complying with these requirements your architect is unlikely to give a final cert, this is likely to be a problem for the bank and they don’t like this sort of thing. And the final draw down of the mortgage may be withheld until the cert is provided.

Water John

In fairness, nobody here is going to tell you, to break the law.
What are you dropping, solar panels and stove? You'll have the chimney. You'll have to install a hot water cylinder ans system compatible with solar.
What's the saving as a % of the overall build?
Consider these questions and look at what else you might cut if needed.

sydthebeat

Digged wrote: »

Ok thanks but what's the deadline on meeting these requirement ? Could I be living in the house 6 months before I fit the solars or stove ? I do intend on doing them

Technically there's no deadline other than the completion of the house.
If your opting out of Building control regulations, and your building without a mortgage, then its up to you to decide when completion happens.

AMKC

Digged wrote: »

Hi I'm starting a new house soon and goin with oil/rads/solar and stove for heating system. We're building mortgage free and our budget is really really tight. What happens if I decided to do without the solars and stove for maybe and year and do them at a later date ?

Have you looked into Geothermal and air/heat recovery systems. Your building a brand new house seems crazy to put an oil boiler in it very few are doing that now. Best to look at all your options.They are not allowed have them in new housing estates anymore.

_Brian wrote: »

The problem can be that by not complying with these requirements your architect is unlikely to give a final cert, this is likely to be a problem for the bank and they don’t like this sort of thing. And the final draw down of the mortgage may be withheld until the cert is provided.

The OP does not have to worry about a mortgage as they said they are mortgage free. So no bank or mortgage problems for them.

Water John

AFAIK oil burners are banned totally on new builds in Norway and they are not short of oil.
Maybe make the house a bit smaller and up the standard as poster above says. Many one off builds are very big anyway.

mickdw

If you are not using a bank, You may well have no issue doing as you say however you will not be meeting the building regulations and it will be on your own head into the future.
There is also the possibility that you will be subject to a random inspection from Building Control officer.
If that were to happen, the Building Control officer will insist that you comply within a reasonable time frame.

Digged

_Brian wrote:

The problem can be that by not complying with these requirements your architect is unlikely to give a final cert, this is likely to be a problem for the bank and they don’t like this sort of thing. And the final draw down of the mortgage may be withheld until the cert is provided.

We're building without a mortgage so that won't be an issue

Digged

Water John wrote:

In fairness, nobody here is going to tell you, to break the law. What are you dropping, solar panels and stove? You'll have the chimney. You'll have to install a hot water cylinder ans system compatible with solar. What's the saving as a % of the overall build? Consider these questions and look at what else you might cut if needed.

We are putting in cylinder compatible for solar system but I'm just asking do the solars have to be installed immediately?We would save roughly €3500 not fitting solars and stove straight away

Pinch Flat

I’d be focussing on Part L compliance rather than a ber- there’s no legal lthreshold for ber. It’s an advisory on how much energy your home will consume over a year.

Digged

mickdw wrote:

If you are not using a bank, You may well have no issue doing as you say however you will not be meeting the building regulations and it will be on your own head into the future. There is also the possibility that you will be subject to a random inspection from Building Control officer. If that were to happen, the Building Control officer will insist that you comply within a reasonable time frame.

Ok this is what I wanted to know. So does somebody call to site and check to see if I've met these requirements ? And if the consequences were having to install the rest that's not a big deal ?

Digged

Water John wrote:

AFAIK oil burners are banned totally on new builds in Norway and they are not short of oil. Maybe make the house a bit smaller and up the standard as poster above says. Many one off builds are very big anyway.

House will only be 1250sq/ft, can't go any smaller 😂. Air to water cost is €17,500 for the house and oil/rads/solar and stove is €9000. Buy a lot of oil for the €8500 difference. My brother in law built 2700sq/ft last year with oil/rads/solar and stove and he only spent €500 on oil last year. With level of insulation today houses need very little heating

dubrov

Just take out as big a mortgage as you can with one of the banks that do a 2% cashback deal.
Then pay off the balance with your savings.

Even if the 2% doesn't cover the extra cost, you'd be left with a very low interest loan.

Digged

Pinch Flat wrote:

I’d be focussing on Part L compliance rather than a ber- there’s no legal lthreshold for ber. It’s an advisory on how much energy your home will consume over a year.

Well it is Part L compliance I'm trying to meet. I'm asking when does it have to be met ? Could I just use oil and rads for couple of months till I get money together for solars and then fit them ? What determines when these have to be done ? I will be doin them by the way, just if I could hold off a while it would be great. I will be mortgage free by the way so I would have money together for them soon enough

Digged

Banks won't give us mortgage cause were both self employed. Tried them all !!

Only looked for 50,000 aswell

Have another mortgage 10years and never missed a payment even thru recession. Credit rating 100 percent. SOME JOKE

sydthebeat

Assuming you have approx 100k cash to build your home... It's still not possible to get another 15k to compete it?

Digged

Have 100k that's including 10k from credit union, that's max they'll give us. We'll have that paid in 2 years

UrbanFret

Just go ahead with the plan and fit them when you have the necessary funds. Banks ought to be ashamed of themselves. I had the same problem. Wouldn't give me a bean. Like yourself I managed without the useless cnuts. As long as you comply within a reasonable timescale I really don't see the issue.

Digged

UrbanFret wrote:

Just go ahead with the plan and fit them when you have the necessary funds. Banks ought to be ashamed of themselves. I had the same problem. Wouldn't give me a bean. Like yourself I managed without the useless cnuts. As long as you comply within a reasonable timescale I really don't see the issue.

I know it's unbelievable. My plan is too just do what's needed to get it habitable and then do the rest bit by bit

Poor Uncle Tom

It's all down to when you need a Certificate of Compliance, obviously you need to be compliant when the Certificate is being issued. Do you need this before you move into the house (full assigned certifier route with CN), or can you move in and finish off the house over time? (opt-out CN route) If it's the latter there is nothing stopping you from completing the house over time and getting certification once everything is complete and compliant.

UrbanFret

Digged wrote: »

I know it's unbelievable. My plan is too just do what's needed to get it habitable and then do the rest bit by bit

Perfectly sound thinking. Best of luck. Don't get too wound up over it.

Gumbo

Digged wrote: »

I know it's unbelievable. My plan is too just do what's needed to get it habitable and then do the rest bit by bit

To be habitable, it must comply fully with the Building Regulations. So you will either have a compliant house or a non compliant house.

Water John

If you have bank refusals, I think you can apply for a Local authority loan.
Personally I think solar panels are a total waste. ROI of 30 years.
BTW rads or some such will go in with both systems. I think the differential between the two is not as big as your suggesting.
A2W should cost you 5/5,5000 plus installation and commissioning.
Oil burner and tank 2/2,500 plus installation and commissioning.

Digged

Poor Uncle Tom wrote:

It's all down to when you need a Certificate of Compliance, obviously you need to be compliant when the Certificate is being issued. Do you need this before you move into the house (full assigned certifier route with CN), or can you move in and finish off the house over time? (opt-out CN route) If it's the latter there is nothing stopping you from completing the house over time and getting certification once everything is complete and compliant.

That's what I'm thinking. We wont be selling this new house anyway so won't need certificate for anything soon

Digged

Water John wrote:

If you have bank refusals, I think you can apply for a Local authority loan. Personally I think solar panels are a total waste. ROI of 30 years. BTW rads or some such will go in with both systems. I think the differential between the two is as big as your suggesting.

I think solar panels are waste of time to but they have to go on. Think council loan is only for 1st timers

Water John

Not if you use A2W so put that 3k, plus a simpler tank, against the Heat Pump.

UrbanFret

kceire wrote: »

To be habitable, it must comply fully with the Building Regulations. So you will either have a compliant house or a non compliant house.

How do you come to that conclusion? I'm living in my home for 4 years. There are still pillars and piers,boundry walls to be built whenever I get round to it, by that rationale my house is not habitable. :eek:

mickdw

Well it sounds as though those issues do not directly effect the dwelling itself in terms of being habitable.
There are regulations for a reason. It cannot be left to the homeowner to decide what is good enough as most would leave out all ventilation etc.
As someone who certifies houses, It scares me what many clients want to move into and can't understand why I can't issue cert. One client extended into attic with no thought whatsoever to fire escape or even proper access and then proceeded to make the kids bedrooms up there.
The same client also wouldn't fund installing the heat recovery and still wanted to move in with zero background ventilation.
People need to be protected from themselves in these instances.

Digged

Water John wrote:

If you have bank refusals, I think you can apply for a Local authority loan. Personally I think solar panels are a total waste. ROI of 30 years. BTW rads or some such will go in with both systems. I think the differential between the two is not as big as your suggesting. A2W should cost you 5/5,5000 plus installation and commissioning. Oil burner and tank 2/2,500 plus installation and commissioning.

I got 4 prices on A2W and cheapest was 17,500 supply and fit. Oil solar stove is 9,000 supply and fit

Calahonda52

UrbanFret wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion? I'm living in my home for 4 years. There are still pillars and piers,boundry walls to be built whenever I get round to it, by that rationale my house is not habitable. :eek:

Its not a conclusion, its a fact that for a HOUSE to be deemed habitable, it must be compliant: e.g.: you cannot be somewhat pregnant.
Walls etc are a planning permission issue.

Water John

This is €4,176 + VAT. Should heat the house for you.
https://www.rvr.ie/products/ecodan-5kw?variant=26096149831

Gumbo

UrbanFret wrote: »

How do you come to that conclusion? I'm living in my home for 4 years. There are still pillars and piers,boundry walls to be built whenever I get round to it, by that rationale my house is not habitable. :eek:

Boundary walls do not fall under the remit of the building regulations. They are a planning matter.

Digged

Water John wrote:

This is €4,176 + VAT. Should heat the house for you.

More to it than just the heat pump. The heat pump and indoor cylinder unit together is 8,000k. 2,700k for underfloor piping or if goin with rads there 2,000k. Zoning controls are 700 and labour is 6,100k

Water John

I worked in UFH supply. The price for piping and full electric controls for your house would be €1,600 + Vat.
You may have your mind made up. but if you are open minded, shop around a bit more.
PM me if you wish.

Digged

Water John wrote:

I worked in UFH supply. The price for piping and full electric controls for your house would be €1,600 + Vat. You may have your mind made up. but if you are open minded, shop around a bit more. PM me if you wish.

Thanks I'll look into it but a2w so far hasn't come near the price for oil/solar

darragh_haven

kceire wrote: »

To be habitable, it must comply fully with the Building Regulations. So you will either have a compliant house or a non compliant house.

Who deems a house habitable? Is there a definition of habitable that is different to the dictionary definition?

'Suitabile or good enough to live in"

Gumbo

darragh_haven wrote: »

Who deems a house habitable? Is there a definition of habitable that is different to the dictionary definition?

'Suitabile or good enough to live in"

My mobile home is good enough to live in. Doesn’t mean it compiles with the requirements set out in the Building Regulations.

It’s not as if people are strong armed into this mess, they know they have to comply before hand but always cheap out and try to do things half arsed.

Lumen

darragh_haven wrote: »

Who deems a house habitable? Is there a definition of habitable that is different to the dictionary definition?

'Suitabile or good enough to live in"

As I understand it, "habitable" in Irish regs means "appropriate for sleeping in", and "appropriate" means properly serviced, safe, comfortable and energy efficient.

Gumbo

Lumen wrote: »

As I understand it, "habitable" in Irish regs means "appropriate for sleeping in", and "appropriate" means properly serviced, safe, comfortable and energy efficient.

And compliance with our Building Regulations is a certified way of confirming that the dwelling is habitable.