Over charged rent under the table, clawing it back

francis_begbie

Hi there,

Just wondering if anyone could offer some advice on this. Bit of a long one, bear with me.


I moved into a house as a sublet tenant, and ended up taking on the lease a few months later when the then leaseholder moved out. While I had been there, there were consistent problems with two of the other lads paying their rent on time, they were decent lads but just weren’t working, stoned all day, you know the type. When I took over the lease I did so on the understanding with tenants and landlord that this nonsense would be over. At one stage, when I was on the brink of throwing the remaining behind paying lad out (my lease was only months old and I thought it’d get the lot of us kicked out), he asked if he could negotiate with the landlord directly to buy some time. I let him do this on the assumption that any messing around from here on in would be incurred by the landlord, not myself (obviously lease wise legally it was on myself, but I was under the assumption that by the landlord negotiating directly with him that gentleman’s agreement wise I’d washed my hands of this nonsense- any losses and any eviction calls were now the landlord’s problem). As it turned out, he didn’t pay up and left owing the landlord something around 450, possibly more, although this excludes debt his deposit would have covered. The landlord turns around, reneges on the gents agreement I’d assumed we all had, and says I have to put an extra 50 in the envelope every pay day(for whatever reason they insist on cash payments- while you might assume it’s a tax dodge my lease forms etc appear to be kosher so I’m not sure how they’d be playing it, although I'd be certain at least my extra 50 is undeclared)) . To be honest, at the time I took it on the chin- it’s so hard to get anywhere you say **** it, I’ve got rid of the stress of them calling about late payments every other day and so on and I was getting a relatively cheap room on the sub let.


Fast forward circa 18 months, I’m still putting an extra 50 in the envelope. It was something I always said I’d call a halt to, but in all truth it was a fear of rocking the boat, of getting into dispute and blackening my name future reference wise. On reflection now though, I’ve had enough and I’m considering not only my options regarding stopping paying the 50, but stopping paying altogether until I equal up the amount I’ve overpaid in the past while (out of goodwill I may exclude the original 450 overpayment, but since that has been resolved I’ve paid upwards of 600 extra).


Is this even legal? My lease specifically says 1400, I’ve been paying 1450 cash envelopes for 18 months now, and have at least some written receipts showing this (unfortunately I seem to have lost the paper trail showing the exact maths of the disputed period). Should they have issued me with some sort of formal statement of arrears at the time this happened, rather than phone calls and text messages? Going forward, I not only am not going to pay this but am considering withholding an amount that will equal the amount that I have overpaid, or even plus the amount I covered during what I thought was a gentleman’s agreement. What worries me about this is the prospect of blackening my name in terms of renting future property. Generally speaking, is there a system whereby a landlord can check to see the person they are talking to for a reference is really your future landlord and not just someone doing you a favour? As to be honest this is the main thing holding me back from standing up, as it’s highly likely myself and the missus (who doesn’t live with me currently, has her own landlord) will be looking to rent elsewhere within the year, and I don’t want my name blackened all over because I took back what was rightfully mine. To specify, I'm not trying to dodge rent, I'm trying to claw back money they took advantage of me over because they knew I didn't want to rock the boat in the current climate. Could fighting this lead to an impact on credit rating, ability to seek future mortgage, any of that type of thing?

Thanks in advance.

colm_mcm

Withholding is a very bad idea. It’s not nice what’s happening here, but initially when I read your post. I thought you were giving €50 a week extra. For the sake of keeping a roof over your head I’d nearly keep paying the extra €50 a month. It’s crazy out there and finding a decent place for any money isn’t easy.

If you hadn’t been paying the €50 extra and the landlord told you the rent was going up to €1550 a month, would you actually move out?

francis_begbie

colm_mcm wrote: »

Withholding is a very bad idea. It’s not nice what’s happening here, but initially when I read your post. I thought you were giving €50 a week extra. For the sake of keeping a roof over your head I’d nearly keep paying the extra €50 a month. It’s crazy out there and finding a decent place for any money isn’t easy.

If you hadn’t been paying the €50 extra and the landlord told you the rent was going up to €1550 a month, would you actually move out?

The thing is, the rent is going up by the mandated maximum 4 percent soon. Whether this mean it goes to 1456 (as it would be according to my 2 year old contract stating the rent is 1400) or whether this means it's going up to 1508 (off the top of my head 4 percent of 1450 added would equal this) I'm not too sure. Truth is I don't want to rock the boat and blacken my name with future landlords, but this is exactly why I've been taken advantage of and yes, I'd quite like to not pay rent for a couple of months (my portion) in order to bring things back to equilibrium.

the_syco

francis_begbie wrote: »

Going forward, I not only am not going to pay this but am considering withholding an amount that will equal the amount that I have overpaid, or even plus the amount I covered during what I thought was a gentleman’s agreement.

Withholding rent will allow the LL serve you eviction notice.

francis_begbie wrote: »

Generally speaking, is there a system whereby a landlord can check to see the person they are talking to for a reference is really your future landlord and not just someone doing you a favour?

Nope.

the_syco

francis_begbie wrote: »

gentleman’s agreement

If it's not written down anywhere, what happens if you just stop paying it?

Stheno

So 50 x 18 is 900 euro so after paying the 450 owed youve overpaid 450.

Why not bring it up with your landlord?

Fol20

your name is on the contract, not the stoned housemate so you will be hit for any bills. Forget about gentlemen agreements. It doesn’t exist in this day and age unless written and signed for.

You agreed to pay the extra 50 so there’s no going back on it now. You have two options.since your lease is over, move out and find something you believe is better or suck it up and continue to pay it if you are happy with it.

Do not just decide to not pay rent or feel like he owes you x amount of money. You agreed to the deal so be a “gentleme” and fulfill your end of the agreement.

JustAThought

the_syco wrote: »

If it's not written down anywhere, what happens if you just stop paying it?

I'm at a loss to understand if you are backpaying someone or two other peoples elses outstanding rent in e50 arrears or if the rent 'just' went up . Either way it seems a bit of a mess. Regarding references - yes you are absolutely right - and in this climate it will be hard to get anywhere without one. Having said that you could always get a friend/family member to 'provide' you with one which might or might not solve your dilema. I'd say to ask for clarity which is fair on everyone - the big question is whether you will leave and try to find something else now if you don't hear the answer you want. How much more expensive and inconvenient might that be in the long run & have you somewhere to stay in the meantime while you look?. It might 'just' be a question of lesson learned for the future - sadly.

dennyk

the_syco wrote: »

If it's not written down anywhere, what happens if you just stop paying it?

Legally in an ideal world? Nothing, as his rent is €1400 in the lease, not €1450, and he's already more than paid back the €450 arrears (which he would technically have been responsible for, as his was the only name on the lease; getting his sub-letters to cough it up really was the OP's problem, not the landlord's).

Practically speaking? Maybe nothing happens. Maybe the landlord starts getting ****ty about it (stops being responsive to maintenance requests and the like, schedules weekly inspections just to harass the OP and his sub-letters, etc.). Maybe he suddenly needs the house "for his family" and the OP and company are out on the street in a month or two and the place goes up on Daft for 30% more the next day (foolish, true enough, but that's never stopped a fool...). The OP would be in a better position to judge how things might go, really, since no one here knows the landlord.

yabadabado

Would you not just write it all down, how much rent was owed and how much you have paid in so far and state you are reverting back to the lease amount of €1400.
Give a copy of the letter to landlord and that should be the end of it unless LL acts the prick but aren't doing anything wrong.

NinetyTwoTeam

so you willingly took on a lease with guys who were already consistently behind on rent, and inevitably got stung by one of them.

then you kept paying the extra 50 after the debt was cleared? why?

now you want to withhold a large amount of rent.

I know it's tough out there but you are making things harder for yourself at every turnaround.

if you don't have receipts or a rent book signed and paid you cash you have no proof.

anyway, step 1: calculate the overpayment. step 2: talk to the landlord.