IBT again for second learner permit?

One More Toy

Hello,

I am rushing now to get a test, pain in the hole as my bike is 5cc too little for the cat A licence; plus its auto when Id like to pass on a geared

Anyway, just to confirm my understanding, will i have to fork out the 500 quid again for an IBT over two days to get a second learner permit if i fail the test?

Cheers
OMT

cantdecide

Your instructor will happily hire you a bike I'm sure. I hired my instructor's bike for my test.

You won't have to repeat IBT (assuming you were trained to the cat A standard in the past). The only way you would have to repeat IBT is if you left your permit expire for 5 or more years. If you fail, all you have to do is go back to the NDLS and renew in the usual way.

draycottgirlz

cantdecide wrote: »

Your instructor will happily hire you a bike I'm sure. I hired my instructor's bike for my test.

You won't have to repeat IBT (assuming you were trained to the cat A standard in the past). The only way you would have to repeat IBT is if you left your permit expire for 5 or more years. If you fail, all you have to do is go back to the NDLS and renew in the usual way.

Spot on

One More Toy

Thank you for your replies!

So in theory I can reapply for a second permit without taking the test, or redoing the IBT?

I have too much stress at the moment to get ready for the test etc

cantdecide

One More Toy wrote: »

So in theory I can reapply for a second permit without taking the test, or redoing the IBT?

There's no theories - in factuality, you need to go in, hand them your permit, a learner permit application form, €35 and have your mug shot taken (assuming all other personal details haven't changed). As long as you keep renewing your permits, you will never need to repeat IBT. In two years time, if you still haven't passed the test, you will need to bring a test application with you to renew your permit at which time you will only get a 1 year permit.

Goose81

One More Toy wrote: »

Hello,

I am rushing now to get a test, pain in the hole as my bike is 5cc too little for the cat A licence; plus its auto when Id like to pass on a geared

Anyway, just to confirm my understanding, will i have to fork out the 500 quid again for an IBT over two days to get a second learner permit if i fail the test?

Cheers
OMT

If you ring around a bunch of IBT instructors and explain the situation one of them will issue you another one for 100 quid or so without you doing the IBT again. Not supposed to but a few will if asked

cantdecide

Goose81 wrote: »

If you ring around a bunch of IBT instructors and explain the situation one of them will issue you another one for 100 quid or so without you doing the IBT again. Not supposed to but a few will if asked

I'm going to have to declare my info might be out of date on this one. My knowledge is firmly corroborated by this thread from last year - ie you don't need to show an IBT cert for the test as long as you have a valid learner permit on the day.

One point to remember about the NDLS and its issuing of learner permits is that they will never ask you to provide a valid IBT cert in order to renew a permit - you can't take IBT without a permit. The issue surrounding the IBT expiry relates to a rider and their ability to apply for practical tests [or apply to the NDLS for a FULL licence by progressive access].

The RSA are great for declaring that x, y or z is the case and then instructing the NDLS to do something else. As far as I'm concerned, the RSA still do not require a current and valid IBT cert in order to apply for a full licence having sat a driving test - just a current and valid learner permit for renewal which, as far as I'm concerned, the NDLS will happily renew forever.

Honestly, OP, I think you might have to call the RSA and see what they say this time. If nothing has changed since the other thread from last year, then you're good to go. If they are fully invoking the rules as stated, then my info is out of date.

From the RSA website...

Can my certificate go out of date?
The Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT ceases to be valid after two years from the date of issue. The holder must, within the period of validity either, (a) submit the certificate to the licensing authority with an application for a driving licence (full licence) under progressive access rules for the relevant licence category, or (b) make an application for a certificate of competency (driving test) for the relevant licence category. Any subsequent such application must be accompanied by a valid Certificate of satisfactory Completion of IBT. Note: Following the expiry of a Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT it will be necessary to successfully complete additional IBT training in order to obtain a further certificate. Visit www.rsa.ie for further details.

But the way the NDLS have operated thusfar, they don't care about IBT unless a cert is being used in the context of progressive access- hence its two year expiry, just like a certificate of competency expires after two years and a test would have to be repeated...

Goose81

cantdecide wrote: »

I'm going to have to declare my info might be out of date on this one. My knowledge is firmly corroborated by this thread from last year - ie you don't need to show an IBT cert for the test as long as you have a valid learner permit on the day.

One point to remember about the NDLS and its issuing of learner permits is that they will never ask you to provide a valid IBT cert in order to renew a permit - you can't take IBT without a permit. The issue surrounding the IBT expiry relates to a rider and their ability to apply for practical tests [or apply to the NDLS for a FULL licence by progressive access].

The RSA are great for declaring that x, y or z is the case and then instructing the NDLS to do something else. As far as I'm concerned, the RSA still do not require a current and valid IBT cert in order to apply for a full licence having sat a driving test - just a current and valid learner permit for renewal which, as far as I'm concerned, the NDLS will happily renew forever.

Honestly, OP, I think you might have to call the RSA and see what they say this time. If nothing has changed since the other thread from last year, then you're good to go. If they are fully invoking the rules as stated, then my info is out of date.

From the RSA website...



But the way the NDLS have operated thusfar, they don't care about IBT unless a cert is being used in the context of progressive access- hence its two year expiry, just like a certificate of competency expires after two years and a test would have to be repeated...

All true but driving without a valid IBT is against the law afaik and the guards can charge you over it and an insurer could use it to try to avoid making a payout in the event of a claim. I'd be more worried about that than getting a permit

cantdecide

Goose81 wrote: »

All true but driving without a valid IBT is against the law afaik and the guards can charge you over it and an insurer could use it to try to avoid making a payout in the event of a claim. I'd be more worried about that than getting a permit

I think that part of this is whether you have valid IBT against your learner permit or if this is literally 'expiry of your cert' which might have some implications for some riders who may be trying to use progressive access.

I've looked all over and I can find reference to the cert expiring but I can't find any source that says 'you need a current and valid IBT cert with you at all times' but I have read sources that say you need to 'need to complete IBT and keep the cert with your permit' without any reference to its expiry.

It all smacks of a set of rules that are still being unenforced... but I'm not done with this.

Goose81

From when I did my ibt it was made clear to me that the cert expires after 2 years and if you don't do your test in that period you need to do it again.

cantdecide

I'm on the verge of calling the RSA myself. The basic two questions beyond all of this is 'can I legally ride unaccompanied with an expired IBT cert' and 'am I forbidden from making a test booking if my IBT cert is expired and if I am, how can I repeat IBT without a current learner permit'. There appears to be catch 22s everywhere...

Goose81 wrote: »

From when I did my ibt it was made clear to me that the cert expires after 2 years and if you don't do your test in that period you need to do it again.

I think that's the oversimplified line regarding an unenforceable regime that you were fed as it appears to me that no one is explicitly stating the consequences of riding with a current learner permit and an expired IBT cert. The whole thing seems unenforceable based on whether you're simply trying to take and pass your test or are happy to ride on permits indefinitely as some will. I see carefully chosen vague language in the material that lacks detail.

Keep your Certificate with you
You must keep your Certificate with your learner’s permit and carry it with you whenever you are riding as you may be asked to produce it by a member of An Garda Siochana.

You will also be asked to produce your Certificate by your driving tester on the day of your practical driving test.

Please Note: The Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT ceases to be valid after two years from the date of issue. The holder must, within the period of validity either, (a) submit the certificate to the licensing authority with an application for a driving licence (full licence) under progressive access rules for the relevant licence category, or (b) make an application for a certificate of competency (driving test) for the relevant licence category. Any subsequent such application must be accompanied by a valid Certificate of satisfactory Completion of IBT. Note: Following the expiry of a Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT it will be necessary to successfully complete additional IBT training in order to obtain a further certificate.

From the line I've highlighted, it seems the expired cert only affects applications for tests or progressive access as well as being a requirement to sit the test on the day (ie it may have been in date when you applied but out of date by the time your test day comes around). If you specifically need a valid learner permit AND IBT cert to even apply for a test, how can you take IBT without a valid learner permit?? Hence my two questions above.

Also, not every rider is required to complete IBT - permit holders whose categories began under the older 'A-restricted' regime prior to 2011 (my brother is in this situation) has a valid learner category for cat A and has a valid test booking for cat A but as he has never completed IBT for cat A, his application is on indefinite hold and he can renew his learner permit indefinitely. However, he can take a test in A2 without IBT but cannot apply for progressive access to a full cat A without taking out a new learner permit in cat A and taking IBT in cat A. My brother has no IBT cert to accompany his permit and is not required to carry one as his bike is A2.

One More Toy

cantdecide wrote: »

Your instructor will happily hire you a bike I'm sure. I hired my instructor's bike for my test.

You won't have to repeat IBT (assuming you were trained to the cat A standard in the past). The only way you would have to repeat IBT is if you left your permit expire for 5 or more years. If you fail, all you have to do is go back to the NDLS and renew in the usual way.

So rang the RSA to get clarity, it appears yes this information is correct

Goose81

One More Toy wrote: »

So rang the RSA to get clarity, it appears yes this information is correct

What exactly did they tell you because from this quote above it would appear they do expire after 2 years

Keep your Certificate with you
You must keep your Certificate with your learner’s permit and carry it with you whenever you are riding as you may be asked to produce it by a member of An Garda Siochana.

You will also be asked to produce your Certificate by your driving tester on the day of your practical driving test.

Please Note: The Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT ceases to be valid after two years from the date of issue. The holder must, within the period of validity either, (a) submit the certificate to the licensing authority with an application for a driving licence (full licence) under progressive access rules for the relevant licence category, or (b) make an application for a certificate of competency (driving test) for the relevant licence category. Any subsequent such application must be accompanied by a valid Certificate of satisfactory Completion of IBT. Note: Following the expiry of a Certificate of Satisfactory Completion of IBT it will be necessary to successfully complete additional IBT training in order to obtain a further certificate.

So what I get from that is that someone applying for their second permit , if their IBT is out of date will not be given one? and will have to re do it. thats what im reading from the above.

cantdecide

Goose81 wrote: »

What exactly did they tell you because from this quote above it would appear they do expire after 2 years


So what I get from that is that someone applying for their second permit , if their IBT is out of date will not be given one? and will have to re do it. thats what im reading from the above.

There are three aspects to this whole thing that remains unexplained;

1) what do you have to do in order to be issued with a learner permit - it appears having an expired cert doesn't prevent you from renewing your permit
2) what do you have to don in order to receive and take a practical test - it seems that having an expired cert probably doesn't prevent you from applying for tests so what's the point of talking about test applications?
3) what is your legal status riding your bike having completed your IBT initially yet having an expired cert after two years - this is the crux of the issue and there is no clear answer and riders should be able to easily find out - my suspicion is the RSA meant to come down hard but didn't follow through which just leaves riders like the OP in a bureaucratic circle.

When you try and get the whole mess to jive you end up in a chicken and egg situation. You can't book at test without IBT but you simultaneously can't repeat IBT without a permit. Not to mention the forcing of riders to book a test after just their first two year permit. I think that's why instructors are just reissuing certs.

Here is another mild example of the kind of unworkable rules regarding official ID that the boffins seem to be paid to come up with and having to vaguely row back quietly.

Asked about the changes, the RSA said it was happy to clarify that from that date the card would “replace the requirement for certain documentation when applying for a driving licence/learner permit”.

Goose81

cantdecide wrote: »

There are three aspects to this whole thing that remains unexplained;

1) what do you have to do in order to be issued with a learner permit - it appears having an expired cert doesn't prevent you from renewing your permit
2) what do you have to don in order to receive and take a practical test - it seems that having an expired cert probably doesn't prevent you from applying for tests so what's the point of talking about test applications?
3) what is your legal status riding your bike having completed your IBT initially yet having an expired cert after two years - this is the crux of the issue and there is no clear answer and riders should be able to easily find out - my suspicion is the RSA meant to come down hard but didn't follow through which just leaves riders like the OP in a bureaucratic circle.

When you try and get the whole mess to jive you end up in a chicken and egg situation. You can't book at test without IBT but you simultaneously can't repeat IBT without a permit. Not to mention the forcing of riders to book a test after just their first two year permit. I think that's why instructors are just reissuing certs.

Here is another mild example of the kind of unworkable rules regarding official ID that the boffins seem to be paid to come up with and having to vaguely row back quietly.

Tbh man from the quote above it seems to be quite clear imo, id give them a ring and ask if I was you and you are in that situation but I don't think it will be good news.

Roadcraft

cantdecide wrote: »

There are three aspects to this whole thing that remains unexplained;

1) what do you have to do in order to be issued with a learner permit - it appears having an expired cert doesn't prevent you from renewing your permit
2) what do you have to don in order to receive and take a practical test - it seems that having an expired cert probably doesn't prevent you from applying for tests so what's the point of talking about test applications?
3) what is your legal status riding your bike having completed your IBT initially yet having an expired cert after two years - this is the crux of the issue and there is no clear answer and riders should be able to easily find out - my suspicion is the RSA meant to come down hard but didn't follow through which just leaves riders like the OP in a bureaucratic circle.

When you try and get the whole mess to jive you end up in a chicken and egg situation. You can't book at test without IBT but you simultaneously can't repeat IBT without a permit. Not to mention the forcing of riders to book a test after just their first two year permit. I think that's why instructors are just reissuing certs.

Here is another mild example of the kind of unworkable rules regarding official ID that the boffins seem to be paid to come up with and having to vaguely row back quietly.

1. IBT has nothing to do with renewing your learner permit. You do need a valid learner permit to take IBT.

2. To take a test you must have completed IBT, require a valid permit & reg cert for the bike.
I have had people take & pass their test with an out of date IBT cert.

3. Without a valid IBT cert it is illegal to ride on the road.

cantdecide

Roadcraft wrote: »

1. IBT has nothing to do with renewing your learner permit. You do need a valid learner permit to take IBT.

Sound. I think it's fair to say that the NDLS don't care about IBT certs, valid or otherwise (outside of progressive access) and they don't care about your status regarding driving tests until you get your third learner permit. There is plenty of evidence that getting the second permit is the easy part.

Roadcraft wrote: »

3. Without a valid IBT cert it is illegal to ride on the road.

This is the issue isn't it because if you can't ride your bike legally, how can you take a test?

Roadcraft wrote: »

2. To take a test you must have completed IBT, require a valid permit & reg cert for the bike.

The first thing I'll say is that there is possibly a difference in the intention of the rules - from the RSA website, it appears you can't even apply for a driving test until your expired IBT cert has been renewed but how can you refresh your IBT without a permit. That's a conflict. My guess is that a rider that probably could go onto the RSA website and apply for a driving test even though their IBT cert is expired (that's even before you consider someone who applied for a test whose IBT cert subsequently expired).

It seems to me that something is happening (or not happening) regarding the difference between having never taken IBT and taking IBT but the cert expires.

Roadcraft wrote: »

I have had people take & pass their test with an out of date IBT cert.

I take this as proof that either the RSA don't know what they want, not everyone is on the same page, or there is a regime in place that is not being enforced because they know that there are conflicts.

Question - am I right in thinking from the below that they are giving riders on their first permits a choice: either apply for a driving test OR repeat IBT? It's a lot more onerous for riders compared to car drivers not that that's a bad thing - I'm all for getting the test passed ASAP.

The holder must, within the period of validity either, (a) submit the certificate to the licensing authority with an application for a driving licence (full licence) under progressive access rules for the relevant licence category, or (b) make an application for a certificate of competency (driving test) for the relevant licence category.

Roadcraft

Goose81 wrote: »

What exactly did they tell you because from this quote above it would appear they do expire after 2 years


So what I get from that is that someone applying for their second permit , if their IBT is out of date will not be given one? and will have to re do it. thats what im reading from the above.

IBT certs are valid for 2 years.
You don’t need an IBT cert to apply for a learner permit.

Roadcraft

cantdecide wrote: »

Sound. I think it's fair to say that the NDLS don't care about IBT certs, valid or otherwise (outside of progressive access) and they don't care about your status regarding driving tests until you get your third learner permit. There is plenty of evidence that getting the second permit is the easy part.



This is the issue isn't it because if you can't ride your bike legally, how can you take a test?



The first thing I'll say is that there is possibly a difference in the intention of the rules - from the RSA website, it appears you can't even apply for a driving test until your expired IBT cert has been renewed but how can you refresh your IBT without a permit. That's a conflict. My guess is that a rider that probably could go onto the RSA website and apply for a driving test even though their IBT cert is expired (that's even before you consider someone who applied for a test whose IBT cert subsequently expired).

It seems to me that something is happening (or not happening) regarding the difference between having never taken IBT and taking IBT but the cert expires.



I take this as proof that either the RSA don't know what they want, not everyone is on the same page, or there is a regime in place that is not being enforced because they know that there are conflicts.

Question - am I right in thinking from the below that they are giving riders on their first permits a choice: either apply for a driving test OR repeat IBT? It's a lot more onerous for riders compared to car drivers not that that's a bad thing - I'm all for getting the test passed ASAP.

The first permit will expire before the IBT cert as you have to have the permit before you can take IBT. Some people can have their permit for over a year or be on their second or third permit before they take IBT.

If IBT expires you don't have to repeat the whole course just repeat module 5 to get a new cert which would be valid for a further two years.

One More Toy

Roadcraft wrote: »

The first permit will expire before the IBT cert as you have to have the permit before you can take IBT. Some people can have their permit for over a year or be on their second or third permit before they take IBT.

If IBT expires you don't have to repeat the whole course just repeat module 5 to get a new cert which would be valid for a further two years.

Going to ring and get better clarity than my first phone call, when i get a chance

cantdecide

Just encountered this from the UK regime here. In the UK, they're black and white about this issue. As I've said all along, I think the RSA are just creating ambiguity by not making a stand on the implications of the issues around expired IBT certs.

You must pass your full moped or motorcycle test within 2 years, or you have to either take CBT again or stop riding.

You can be fined up to £1,000 and get up to 6 penalty points for riding if you don’t have a valid CBT certificate.

Wouldn't it be great if the RSA just clarified if this is the same here under the 2013 harmonised EU rules that the UK and Ireland are both meant to be under.

LookBehindYou

ROADCRAFT has explained the situation clear, he deals with it regularly as he is an IBT Instructor, same as myself.

To reiterate,

1st Learner permit = 2 yrs (991)
to get another 2 yrs (992), just apply for it in NDLS
To get the 3rd renewal of 1 yr (993), you must apply for a test, bring the printed application to NDLS to enable being issued with the 3rd Learner permit.
(all above can be done without an IBT cert)

The RSA will not issue a test date to you until you complete your IBT.

AM = Moped up to 49cc which cannot go faster than 45 km/h
A1 = up to 125cc
A2= up to 35kw (max 70kw restricted to 35kw)
A= any bike, no restriction ( except insurance company)

cantdecide

LookBehindYou wrote: »

ROADCRAFT has explained the situation clear

Answer a straight question. You are caught riding without a valid IBT (it's expired). Is there ANY other consequence for riding without a valid IBT cert? It's NOT illegal to ride with an IBT cert and they just won't give you a test date?

If the answer is no, then WHY not just state that in plain English on the RSA website? Why bother completing IBT again if you're one of the many half-arsed riders happy to come back and renew their permit every year? It simply disincentivises passing the test. It rewards laziness and makes no sense. If that's it then it's a piece of awkward limp-wristed legislation and the UK clearly want people off learner permits and their legislation (which is meant to be harmonised across Europe) supports it.

It just seems like a farce and they know it, hence their vague language.

LookBehindYou

Good questions from Cantdecide

Answer a straight question. You are caught riding without a valid IBT (it's expired). Is there ANY other consequence for riding without a valid IBT cert? It's NOT illegal to ride with an IBT cert and they just won't give you a test date?
In reality, I don't know of any

If the answer is no, then WHY not just state that in plain English on the RSA website? Why bother completing IBT again if you're one of the many half-arsed riders happy to come back and renew their permit every year? It simply disincentivises passing the test. It rewards laziness and makes no sense. If that's it then it's a piece of awkward limp-wristed legislation and the UK clearly want people off learner permits and their legislation (which is meant to be harmonised across Europe) supports it.

It just seems like a farce and they know it, hence their vague language.
The official answer is that the IBT cert is only valid for 2 years.
The RSA changed the ibt certs to include in small writing that the cert is only valid for 2 years

Maybe the different sections of the rsa don't share information due the the DATA PROTECTION LAWS ( I wonder )

dhobnob

Did anyone ever get to the bottom of this? My IBT is out in June. I hope to pass my test before the IBT runs out. But if I don’t pass before that date in June, will I have to complete IBT again to get a new cert? Paying whatever hundreds of euro it is these days.

zubair

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118749393#Comment_118749393

Assuming you have your A IBT, module 5 needs to be repeated to renew the cert.

galwaytt

ok just to throw a complete cat amongst the pigeons, my young lad has a FULL A1 licence, will have it 2 years this August.

As he didn't want to go progressive route, did IBT all over again for A2 in June '20, got his A2 LP, and applied for his test.

However, he has been so long waiting on a date he has been overtaken by events. Started in the Army this week and a day after he got notice to start (this week)...........he got a date for a driving test: next - bloody -week. So he's had to cancel the driving test and we'll have to start the booking process again. RSA website would not let us 'reschedule' as there are no dates available.......

Given he already has a full A-category licence, is IBT 'expiring' an issue to worry about at all (for him) - I'm not sure how we're going to be able to schedule a driving test around DF rosters...

Hotblack Desiato

The obvious answer is progressive access to A2 and let him sort out A in a couple of years' time.

He has a full A1 so is OK to ride that, but the A2 LP is not valid without a current IBT cert.

Bluefoam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823521#Comment_118823521

Agreed, plus once he's in the job, he might be able to get into a motorcycle training group & they'd look after the cost of advance courses and testing

Hotblack Desiato

Not sure about the Defence Forces but the Gardai are said to only consider non-riders for motorcycle training.

zubair

It's not clear from the post if this is what you're thinking. But if he has a full A1 2 years and has since completed the IBT for A2 (so module 5}, he's actually done all he needs to for the progressive access (just module 5) so he could potentially apply for a full A2 by progressive access now before the IBT expires and do the A test later.

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious here.