Why TV georestrictions within the EU?

georgekildare

Hallo ICDG,
I understand that you have closed my post about accessing Irish and UK TV services from abroad. However, I do want to raise the general question of the legality of accessing these services from within the EU. I think that this is a legitimate question and topical given the ongoing discussions about the single market and the customs union.
My question is whether it is legitimate to prevent European citizens from watching programmes that are transmitted from within the EU, even though they can receive them and are prepared to pay the relevant subscription to the provider.    
Satellite and Internet television services within Europe are presently provided on a national basis. Although satellite signals distributed by the service providers can be received in several European countries simultaneously, the providers will only provide a specific service package to subscribers resident the country for which it is intended. The reason given by the providers for refusing to sell their television packages (bouquets) outside a single country is their need to adhere to restrictions imposed by copyright laws. Because some of the programming material has been purchased by for transmission in a single country, distributing this channel to citizens resident in other member states of the EU would allegedly contravene the laws of copyright. (See Section 2).
The result is that (i) EU citizens are denied access to information from EU member states received by them over the ether (including news and current affairs), purely on the basis of their country of residence (ii) providers of satellite television in most EU countries have become monopolies that use questionable methods to discourage competition, e.g. by strictly control the design and manufacture of electronics that can receive their encoded transmissions. 
Why should the copyright laws governing satellite television be different from those governing books and magazines? Every EU citizen can quite rightly purchase copyrighted books, magazines and newspapers from outside their national borders. There is no problem in purchasing subscriptions to magazines and newspapers from abroad. However, these magazines and newspapers frequently have premier copyrighted material (e.g. autobiographies and photos) for which copyright has also been purchased by magazines and newspapers in other countries. As interpreted by the satellite providers the copyright laws are not only inconsistent with the copyright laws for other media, but they would also infringe the right of every EU citizen to freedom of information as is required by the Treaty of Rome 
The conduct of satellite television providers within Europe and its operation as presently sanctioned by the European Commission contravene the following articles of the Treaty of Rome:
* Article 3, which states that the activities of the European Community shall include “an internal market characterized by the abolition, as between Member States, of obstacles to the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital”
* Article 3a, which states that economic policy shall be “conducted in accordance with the principle of an open market economy with free competition”. 
* Article 9, which states that “the Community shall be based upon a customs union which shall cover all trade in goods”
* Article 59, which states that “restrictions on freedom to provide services within the Community shall be progressively abolished.
* Article 65, which states that “as long as restrictions on freedom to provide services have not been abolished, each Member State shall apply such restrictions without distinction on grounds of nationality or residence to all persons providing services”.
Further, Article 10 of the Convention on Human Rights, ratified by the Council of Europe in 1950 states that “Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. this right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information an ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.” It continues that “This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises”. However, if the licensing impedes the reception of information across frontiers, it clearly contravenes this article.

 At a lower level, the European Convention on Transfrontier Television adopted in 1989 served as a basis for the preparation of the 1989 EU Directive on "Television without Frontiers" guarantees freedom of reception and retransmission. Party’s to the Convention must ensure freedom of reception and not restrict the retransmission on their territories of television programmes which are in conformity with the Convention’s standards. Article 4, which embodies this principle, is therefore one of the fundamental ones in the Convention, since it secures freedom of expression and information.
Several provisions of the EU directive of 3 October 1989 entitled “Television Without Frontiers" are relevant and will be quoted:
“Whereas broadcasts transmitted across frontiers by means of various technologies are one of the ways of pursuing the objectives of the Community; whereas measures should be adopted to permit and ensure the transition from national markets to a common programme production and distribution market and to establish conditions of fair competition without prejudice to the public interest role to be discharged by the television broadcasting services” 
“Whereas the Treaty provides for free movement of all services normally provided against payment, without exclusion on grounds of their cultural or other content and without restriction of nationals of Member States established in a Community country other than that of the person for whom the services are intended;”
“Whereas this right as applied to the broadcasting and distribution of television services is also a specific manifestation in Community law of a more general principle, namely the freedom of expression as enshrined in Article 10 (1) of the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms ratified by all Member States;”
“Whereas the laws, regulations and administrative measures in Member States concerning the pursuit of activities as television broadcasters and cable operators contain disparities, some of which may impede the free movement of broadcasts within the Community and may distort competition within the common market;”       

“Whereas all such restrictions on freedom to provide broadcasting services within the Community must be abolished under the Treaty; “
“Whereas such abolition must go hand in hand with coordination of the applicable laws; whereas this coordination must be aimed at facilitating the pursuit of the professional activities concerned and, more generally, the free movement of information and ideas within the Community;”
“Whereas it is essential for the Member States to ensure the prevention of any acts which may prove detrimental to freedom of movement and trade in television programmes or which may promote the creation of dominant positions which would lead to restrictions on pluralism and freedom of televised information and of the information sector as a whole;”

Finally 
* Sky and the authorities turn a blind eye to all the UK expats in Spain and elsewhere that purchase the widely advertised Sky subscriptions at inflated prices - presumably because it is a source of cash for them.
* VPN routers and VPN subscriptions are advertised and sold legally with the advertised purpose of avoiding georestrictions.
For all these reasons, as an Irishman living in the Netherlands I do not see why I have to act like an undercover dope-taker for purchasing an Irish TV subscription.

muffler

I think you need to seek advice from the ECC. Dont think anyone here is an expert on EU law.

georgekildare

But there must be some basis in law for not allowing threads about accessing TV across borders via VPNs on the forum. If so, what is it?

Johnboy1951

georgekildare wrote: »

But there must be some basis in law for not allowing threads about accessing TV across borders via VPNs on the forum. If so, what is it?

IIUC this is a private forum and the rules do not have to have legal backing.

On the matter of licencing ..... if I were to give you exclusive rights to a 'territory' limited by whatever I specify, and you agree to those limitations, should you break the agreement by operating outside of the licenced area then whatever penalty the licence specifies will apply.

Whether my licence is for the sale of cars, widgets or anything else, the terms of the licence must be adhered to.

I would not be relying on copyright law to enforce my licence.

MBSnr

^^^
From 1st April 2018 subscription content can be viewed without restriction across the EU. I'm surprised more has not been mentioned about this...

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/cross-border-portability-online-content-services

Johnboy1951

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
From 1st April 2018 subscription content can be viewed without restriction across the EU. I'm surprised more has not been mentioned about this...

https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/cross-border-portability-online-content-services

That applies only to residents of one EU country, travelling in another.

Not quite (as I understood it) what the original post is about.

MBSnr

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That applies only to residents of one EU country, travelling in another.

Not quite (as I understood it) what the original post is about.

Fair enough. However there are "some" who have Amazon UK Prime Video subscriptions but can't view content in Ireland. Be interesting to see if that is removed.....

Johnboy1951

MBSnr wrote: »

Fair enough. However there are "some" who have Amazon UK Prime Video subscriptions but can't view content in Ireland. Be interesting to see if that is removed.....

If they are UK residents and only travelling in Ireland, then it should apply ..... but I suspect that the provider will demand some form of assurance like proof they have a broadband service at their home address in UK or such.
I do not see it being universally applied without such proofs as the providers might demand.

How they will manage all that for those sharing or renting premises I have no idea

Sleeper12

georgekildare wrote:

But there must be some basis in law for not allowing threads about accessing TV across borders via VPNs on the forum. If so, what is it?

In fairness to boards they need to cover themselves legally and they will err on the side of caution.

As for the opening post I think you are mistaken by thinking that the EU has anything to do with the fact that I can't watch something broadcast in another EU country. The individual station's buy in TV programmes, movies or rights to broadcast certain sports events. They are only paying for the rights to broadcast these in their own country. The issue is with the TV stations and the owners of the material. The EU can't make a ruling overriding these contracts

I'd love a totally open market myself.

Sleeper12

MBSnr wrote:

Fair enough. However there are "some" who have Amazon UK Prime Video subscriptions but can't view content in Ireland. Be interesting to see if that is removed.....

I have amazon prime video in Dublin. Content is limited. I'm spending the weekend in Belfast and I was surprised to see that even though I am in the UK I still only access to the limited Irish content

Johnboy1951

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I have amazon prime video in Dublin. Content is limited. I'm spending the weekend in Belfast and I was surprised to see that even though I am in the UK I still only access to the limited Irish content

Why does that surprise you?
You have only paid for that content, why would you expect to get something different?

Sleeper12

Johnboy1951 wrote:

Why does that surprise you? You have only paid for that content, why would you expect to get something different?

I have a netflix account. If I travel to the USA I get American content while I am there but not necessarily some programming I'm used to in Ireland. If I travel to Germany I get netflix Germany. I just assumed that amazon would be the same. I'm in the UK for 2 days and it's not the end of the world. I was just surprised

Johnboy1951

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I have a netflix account. If I travel to the USA I get American content while I am there but not necessarily some programming I'm used to in Ireland. If I travel to Germany I get netflix Germany. I just assumed that amazon would be the same. I'm in the UK for 2 days and it's not the end of the world. I was just surprised

I see ..... was not aware of that.

The above makes me wonder if Netflix will change after Apr 1st?

The new EU reg referenced above should ensure you get your Irish content while in Germany, and not the German content.

icdg

Let me be clear about a few things:

1. OP, your post may well be in breach of charter itself for being a post solely for the purposes of questioning moderator decisions. This is not allowed on any forum on Boards. I am going to interpret it for the time being as not being the case.

2. A cause of legal action does not have to be disclosed, nor does a criminal offence have to be committed for moderators on Boards to take action to close a thread. If this were the case Boards would not be able to function. For example we would be unable to close a thread which had be disrupted or hijacked with off topic material.

3. The rule against not discussing circumventing geoblocking is long standing. It is based on the fact that provider contracts do not generally allow anyone other than either residents of Ireland or of Ireland, the U.K., Isle of Man, Jersey or Guernsey to sign up. Accordingly a person outside those jurisdictions who signs up and uses methods such as a VPN to circumvent geoblocking is attempting to “hoodwink” the provider. This is not a criminal offence and no one will go to jail for it. It is breach of contract and Sky have been known to rescind their contracts with subscribers if they become aware that they are resident outside the jurisdiction. It is not a case that they turn a blind eye at all, simply that they will not act if they do not know.

4. Contrary to popular opinion the EU portability regulation will not end geoblocking. In fact it requires providers to use more complicated geoblocking than before. They will no longer be required to simply block on IP address and in fact will need to ensure that customers temporarily abroad can access their content while still blocking residents of those countries. In other words, this is only for people on holiday.

STB.

icdg wrote: »

4. Contrary to popular opinion the EU portability regulation will not end geoblocking. In fact it requires providers to use more complicated geoblocking than before. They will no longer be required to simply block on IP address and in fact will need to ensure that customers temporarily abroad can access their content while still blocking residents of those countries. In other words, this is only for people on holiday.

It ends geoblocking for buying certain goods within the EU, just not streaming content from Netflix or Amazon who are exempted as basically the large American copyright holders got their greedy way. Consumer Rights Organisations have kicked up blue murder on this and rightly so which is why the exemption and the whole area of copyrighted content is being revisited in 2020.

Either way there is nothing illegal about accessing the content within the EU. It might violate the terms and conditions of a private agreement.

With that being the case, my opinion would be that it shouldnt prevent discussion, once people arent advising on how to use VPNs and bypass geo restrictions etc. There are plenty of other places on the internet that do all that.

MBSnr

STB. wrote: »

It ends geoblocking for buying certain goods within the EU, just not streaming content from Netflix or Amazon who are exempted as basically the large American copyright holders got their greedy way. Consumer Rights Organisations have kicked up blue murder on this and rightly so which is why the exemption and the whole area of copyrighted content is being revisited in 2020.

Either way there is nothing illegal about accessing the content within the EU. It might violate the terms and conditions of a private agreement.

With that being the case, my opinion would be that it shouldnt prevent discussion, once people arent advising on how to use VPNs and bypass geo restrictions etc. There are plenty of other places on the internet that do all that.

That's another bit of EU legislation that coming into effect end of 2018 apparently.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/economy/20180126STO94142/online-shopping-stopping-geo-blocking-and-country-redirects

Is it the case that Amazon are not implementing the "Cross-border portability of online content services". I can't see how they could, since they operate in the EU. Have you a link for that?

STB.

MBSnr wrote: »

That's another bit of EU legislation that coming into effect end of 2018 apparently.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/economy/20180126STO94142/online-shopping-stopping-geo-blocking-and-country-redirects

Is it the case that Amazon are not implementing the "Cross-border portability of online content services". I can't see how they could, since they operate in the EU. Have you a link for that?

No thats not the legislation I am referring to. Its an EU regulation. It'll be in Irish Law within the year. The review clause states that

"The Commission will carry out a first evaluation of the impact of the new rules on the internal market two years after their entry into force.

The evaluation will include a possible application of the new rules to certain electronically supplied services which offer copyrighted content such as downloadable music, e-books, software and online games."

They let the copywriters off the hook in the short term, but the signal is clear. Some members states have been very vocal thats its useless without the digital content etc.

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/02/27/geo-blocking-council-adopts-regulation-to-remove-barriers-to-e-commerce/

icdg

STB it might be helpful if you linked to the exact Regulation you are referring to, since it appears to me that you and I are referring to different Regulations (the portability regulation and the geoblocking regulation) but you and MBSnr appear, despite your contention otherwise, to be referring to the same Regulation, the geoblocking Regulation.

As you point out yourself, the geoblocking Regulation has at present no applicability to audiovisual content, and as such, is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

STB.

icdg wrote: »

STB it might be helpful if you linked to the exact Regulation you are referring to, since it appears to me that you and I are referring to different Regulations (the portability regulation and the geoblocking regulation) but you and MBSnr appear, despite your contention otherwise, to be referring to the same Regulation, the geoblocking Regulation.

As you point out yourself, the geoblocking Regulation has at present no applicability to audiovisual content, and as such, is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Geoblocking is what we are discussing. The article that MBSnr linked to is a specific aspect of the regulations. The article dumbs it down a bit.

It is below. It clarifies aspects of previous regulations changes to directives already in place.

Portability was only one aspect of the whole mindset behind the new regulations, the aim of which is have single digital market.

The end result is geoblocking for goods and services just NOT including the digital copyrighted content which is on the long finger until 2020.

See point 6. In effect like I said previously it achieves nothing.

http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/PE-64-2017-INIT/en/pdf

MBSnr

^^^
As I originally mentioned and linked to in post #5, the EU's implementation of "Cross-border portability of online content services" means that a UK Amazon Prime Video subscriber can now view *all* content in Ireland.