Shared space streets in Dublin

ignorance is strength

I was looking at this Dublin City Council study (technically, the summary thereof) from around 2016, I think, which seems to form the basis for many of the current plans regarding College Green and Luas Cross City, and the transport changes to accommodate them. Some very exciting ideas that I hope will be implemented in time, particularly the pedestrianised top of Grafton Street, College Green plaza and widened Westmoreland Street.

But I was surprised by the absence of any plans for "shared space" streets in a document that was hardly held back by real-world pragmatism. To my mind, the streets bordered by Dame Street and Grafton street -- South William, Wicklow, Drury, Exchequer, etc -- as well as all car-carrying streets in Temple Bar (e.g. Fleet Street), are prime candidates for conversion to "shared spaces": they are low-traffic, high-footfall areas where prioritising pedestrian movement should be encouraged. (The side streets around O'Connell Street -- Liffey Street, Talbot Street -- might also be realistic.)

Below are pictures of South William Street and the junction at the foot of it. As you can see, most of the space is allocated to traffic, with pedestrians confined to narrow footpaths. But the flow of traffic is so low, that it seems unreasonable to allocate the space in that way. (When I'm walking in that area, I will usually walk on the road beside the footpath, without issue.)



(South William Street - I would also advocate the removal of on street-parking here)





Removing curbs and deprioritising the rights of cars would allow traffic and pedestrians to interact as equals on the road, greatly improving the experience of pedestrians and with little affect on cars.



(Aukland, NZ)



(Somewhere in the UK)


I'm aware that people with disabilities, particularly visual impairments, can be adversely affected by the removal of crossing points and curbs. And solutions, of course, should be found to meet their needs. But I feel that what is a very minor adjustment, in contrast with the dramatic changes that the College Green plaza will bring, could bring huge improvements to the experience of the city for pedestrians.

VonLuck

I completely agree with you. It's currently a complete mismanagement of public space. If I recall correctly, there was a discussion of doing a trial run of pedestrianisation of Suffolk Street and South William Street prior to Christmas, but I'm not sure if it ever materialised.

There will be significant opposition from any car park owners, but any issues can easily be resolved with a bit of thought. The article below really gives an in-depth view of what could be achieved with South William Street:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/10/is-it-time-for-a-car-free-south-william-street-in-dublin/

ignorance is strength

VonLuck wrote: »

I completely agree with you. It's currently a complete mismanagement of public space. If I recall correctly, there was a discussion of doing a trial run of pedestrianisation of Suffolk Street and South William Street prior to Christmas, but I'm not sure if it ever materialised.

There will be significant opposition from any car park owners, but any issues can easily be resolved with a bit of thought. The article below really gives an in-depth view of what could be achieved with South William Street:

http://irishcycle.com/2017/08/10/is-it-time-for-a-car-free-south-william-street-in-dublin/

Thanks for that, it’s an interesting read. Suffolk Street would be excellent if pedestrianised. I remember that for the first days after the Nassau Street side was blocked off, no cars used it and pedestrians filled out the street; the sense of space was wonderful. That has since changed, because cars go down it to turn. But those are only taxis and cars making deliveries, so I see no reason why it can’t be pedestrianised with little further impact on cars.

The majority of South William Street could be pedestrianised, with the parallel Clarendon Street used by cars to get from Exchequer-Wicklow Street up to Stephen’s Street. Maybe, in time, that whole area can be fully pedestrianised. But, I guess, the point of my post was that shared space could be introduced with almost no adverse affect on cars.

That publication, which obviously has a cycling bias, ignores that cyclists can also be a hindrance to a pedestrian environment. I’d be worried that a long straight pedestrianised zone would give cyclists the impression that they are entitled to expect pedestrians keep out of their way, when it should really be shared space in which everyone has equal rights. To be honest, I’m sceptical that pedestrians and cyclists can share the same space.

Caranica

As a long term motorist coming from West Dublin to D2 I have to disagree. Dame Street to trinity Street, to South William Street to the green is by far the fastest route from the north quays to Dublin 2. With O'Connell bridge all but gone to cars and so few bridges to cross the city, this is a vital route. Also several car parks around there.

VonLuck

Caranica wrote: »

As a long term motorist coming from West Dublin to D2 I have to disagree. Dame Street to trinity Street, to South William Street to the green is by far the fastest route from the north quays to Dublin 2. With O'Connell bridge all but gone to cars and so few bridges to cross the city, this is a vital route. Also several car parks around there.

It may be the fastest route, but wouldn't Grafton Street be even faster if it wasn't pedestrianised? South William Street is packed with pedestrians and the footpaths are totally inadequate for the volume they take.

Can I ask why you need to get to Dublin 2 via car? I assume it's that you need to use a car for your job based in the city centre?

Caranica

VonLuck wrote: »

Can I ask why you need to get to Dublin 2 via car? I assume it's that you need to use a car for your job based in the city centre?

It's because after work I may need to get to Ballinteer, Malahide, Kildare, Dun Laoghaire to name but a few places I need to get to regularly in the evenings or mid work day, sometimes multiples of these on the same day. Typically leaving those places after 10 so public transport to West Dublin is not an option. Home to work to home almost never happens

ignorance is strength

Caranica wrote: »

As a long term motorist coming from West Dublin to D2 I have to disagree. Dame Street to trinity Street, to South William Street to the green is by far the fastest route from the north quays to Dublin 2. With O'Connell bridge all but gone to cars and so few bridges to cross the city, this is a vital route. Also several car parks around there.

Two things in response.

1. Shared space, the topic of this thread, does not forbid cars. Were it introduced, the inconvenience to drivers taking your route, would be no more than an extra minute or two, on bad days. Full pedestrianisation is another matter, and more contentious.

2. From Dame Street, George‘s Street offers a perfect alternative to the narrow shopping streets of Dunlin’s inner-core. Similar to what VonLuck said, as a motorist, you shouldn’t expect to be able to navigate easily or quickly (or, perhaps, at all) through the pedestrian-heavy city centre.

Pepe LeFrits

South William Street badly needs pedestrianisation. Tiny footpaths full of people walking single file while it’s choked with cars.

Passenger

Maybe not made completely pedestrianized but the footpaths on Merrion Row/Baggot Street could seriously do with being widened. Pedestrians often have to walk on the road when passing each other.

Agreed on South William Street too.

Capel Street might also be a candidate for being pedestrianized.

ignorance is strength

Passenger wrote: »

Maybe not made completely pedestrianized but the footpaths on Merrion Row/Baggot Street could seriously do with being widened. Pedestrians often have to walk on the road when passing each other.

Agreed on South William Street too.

Capel Street might also be a candidate for being pedestrianized.

What's bizarre about South William Street is that the road is unnecessarily wide as is and there is on-street parking despite the Brown Thomas carpark at its lower end. Traffic flow is quite low too.

Merrion Row is trickier, because cars are funneled that way around Stephen's Green to get to the Quays, so traffic-flow really is high. But pavements on Baggott Street could be widened significantly, following the left-turning on to Merrion Street. (If you cross at the Tesco for Pembroke Street, you'll frequently see cars driving in the middle of the two lanes, because there is no requirement to decide. If cars treat it as a one-lane road, why not give that to them?)

While Capel Street would be fantastic pedestrianised, linking in with the Henry Street/Mary Street pedestrian zone from the Spire, I think it's too important as a traffic artery. (For illustration, the Dublin Bus proposal to alleviate the traffic issues around College Green is to make Parliament Street, which leads to Grattan Bridge and Capel Street, a two-way bus-only road, which I think underscores Capel Street's importance.)

Passenger

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Merrion Row is trickier, you'll frequently see cars driving in the middle of the two lanes, because there is no requirement to decide. If cars treat it as a one-lane road, why not give that to them?)

Definitely. Funnelling traffic into a single lane would certainly free up plenty of real estate for expanding the footpaths for sure.

ignorance is strength wrote: »

While Capel Street would be fantastic pedestrianised, linking in with the Henry Street/Mary Street pedestrian zone from the Spire, I think it's too important as a traffic artery. (For illustration, the Dublin Bus proposal to alleviate the traffic issues around College Green is to make Parliament Street, which leads to Grattan Bridge and Capel Street, a two-way bus-only road, which I think underscores Capel Street's importance.)

Maybe remove on-street parking on Capel Street, widen/re-pave the footpaths and at least make it more pedestrian friendly - that could be a more viable option. Would greatly enhance the overall ambiance of the street given the nature of many of the businesses on the street.

ignorance is strength

Passenger wrote: »

Definitely. Funnelling traffic into a single lane would certainly free up plenty of real estate for expanding the footpaths for sure.

One thing I didn't consider is that the traffic lights at Pembroke Street mean that two lanes are necessary for when cars are queuing at a red. But it could still be reduced to one-lane until after the Natural Bakery, where the road widens.

Maybe remove on-street parking on Capel Street, widen/re-pave the footpaths and at least make it more pedestrian friendly - that could be a more viable option. Would greatly enhance the overall ambiance of the street given the nature of many of the businesses on the street.

Yeah, maybe. But, tbh, it's so restricted that I can't really see anything that's realistic to get excited about.

ED E

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

South William Street badly needs pedestrianisation. Tiny footpaths full of people walking single file while it’s choked with cars.

Attempted since the early 90's by Cllr Cuffe and colleagues. Carpark lobby blocked it every time.

Caranica

ignorance is strength wrote: »

One thing I didn't consider is that the traffic lights at Pembroke Street mean that two lanes are necessary for when cars are queuing at a red. But it could still be reduced to one-lane until after the Natural Bakery, where the road widens.

It's effectively one lane anyway thanks to delivery vehicles and people "just nipping in" to the bank/pharmacy/coffee place consistently blocking at least part of a lane?

ignorance is strength

Caranica wrote: »

It's effectively one lane anyway thanks to delivery vehicles and people "just nipping in" to the bank/pharmacy/coffee place consistently blocking at least part of a lane?

Don't get me started on delivery vehicles...

Pepe LeFrits

ED E wrote: »

Attempted since the early 90's by Cllr Cuffe and colleagues. Carpark lobby blocked it every time.

They're like Blockbuster or Xtravision in the early 2000s. They'll be gone soon.

L1011

The carparks or the Greens?

Carparks will need to be CPOed* and each one will end up dearer than the last due to the increasing scarcity driving up prices. Brown Thomas, Fleet Street, Andrews Lane and Arnotts probably cause the most issues currently

*Some could possibly be dealt with by planning permission deals - only allow a retail extension if a carpark is shut or changed etc

ignorance is strength

Caranica wrote: »

It's effectively one lane anyway thanks to delivery vehicles and people "just nipping in" to the bank/pharmacy/coffee place consistently blocking at least part of a lane?

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Don't get me started on delivery vehicles...

Here’s a picture of Wicklow Street with Exchequer Street in the background, which I took an hour or so ago.



Visible are three vans and two cars on Wicklow Street and a truck on Exchequer Street, all of them parked. Out of shot, there is another van just in front of the van in the right foreground and another one just behind the truck in the background.

The picture doesn’t really do justice to the effect that the vehicles have in parking illegally. While none is blocking traffic, it greatly detracts from the aesthetics of he environment and the feeling of order. I presume each justifies their parking on the basis that they will only be there a few minutes. But when it’s a common occurrence, while the individual effect might be small, the collective one is big. It should be stringently policed.

cgcsb

The barking on BOTH sides of SWS is banannas, it needs to go. Ideally the whole block between Grafton st and George's st should be pedestrian or bicycles only. Merrion Row presents a bigger challenge unfortunately. Also I'd like to see Capel St become a key artery for North-South bus routes with only basic provision for cars at the northern end of the street.