WLTP/NoX discussion [Split Thread]

Audi could have had an A3, A4 EV on the road by now but they were and probably still are not interested as they make less profit and companies want maximum profit.

All they're interested in is making Diesels because this allows them to meet Co2 emissions which is easy to do with the fake NEDC test and Nox isn't that much of an issue because as we saw in the U.S , their emissions standards are far more strict in relation to actual pollution then here in the E.U.

With no sign in sight of changing the testing of vehicles to reflect actual emissions then there's no real reason to make electric cars from a business prospective.

aliveandkicking

[Deleted User] wrote: »

With no sign in sight of changing the testing of vehicles to reflect actual emissions then there's no real reason to make electric cars from a business prospective.

Can you for once do a small bit of research before posting uninformed shìte here?

http://www.caremissionstestingfacts.eu/rde-real-driving-emissions-test/

80sDiesel

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

With no sign in sight of changing the testing of vehicles to reflect actual emissions then there's no real reason to make electric cars from a business prospective.

Can you for once do a small bit of research before posting uninformed shìte here?

http://www.caremissionstestingfacts.eu/rde-real-driving-emissions-test/

aliveandkicking

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Can you for once do a small bit of research before posting uninformed shìte here?

http://www.caremissionstestingfacts.eu/rde-real-driving-emissions-test/

DO your own research, that test means nothing........

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions will now be allowed at twice the EU’s 80mg per km limit from 2019 and 50% more from 2021, despite the exemptions being deemed unlawful in a separate vote by the parliament’s legal committee last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/03/eu-parliament-gives-green-light-for-loopholes-in-car-emissions-tests

This is why there's no incentives to eliminate diesels, the E.U protecting the car industry as always.

Shefwedfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions will now be allowed at twice the EU’s 80mg per km limit from 2019 and 50% more from 2021, despite the exemptions being deemed unlawful in a separate vote by the parliament’s legal committee last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/03/eu-parliament-gives-green-light-for-loopholes-in-car-emissions-tests

What is your point here?

Your slagging off Audi for making diesel cars?

Or that Audi haven't make a A3/A4 electric?

I dont see a BMW 3 series or 5 series electric? Some could say they made the i3 so quirky so it wouldn't sell and they would be proved right that electric was a niche market.

cros13

Keep it on topic. There's already enough threads for VW group emissions.

We weren't talking about BMW.........

I drive an i3, get over it man, ffs LOL

RedorDead

Deleted User wrote: »

With no sign in sight of changing the testing of vehicles to reflect actual emissions then there's no real reason to make electric cars from a business prospective.

Dont want to keep this off topic but I take it you have heard of WLTP? Educate yourself please.

aliveandkicking

Deleted User wrote: »

DO your own research, that test means nothing........

Deleted User wrote: »

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions will now be allowed at twice the EU’s 80mg per km limit from 2019 and 50% more from 2021, despite the exemptions being deemed unlawful in a separate vote by the parliament’s legal committee last night.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/feb/03/eu-parliament-gives-green-light-for-loopholes-in-car-emissions-tests

So you admit there is a real world test now so presumably you accept that your original statement saying there was "no sign in sight of changing the testing of vehicles to reflect actual emissions" was incorrect.

The article you linked to is a bit misleading and does not in any way explain the conformity factor in the tests.

RDE step 1 (with a NOx conformity factor of 2.1) applies since 1 September 2017 for new car types. It will apply to all types as from September 2019.
RDE step 2 (with a NOx conformity factor of 1.0 plus an error margin of 0.5) will apply in January 2020 for new types and then from January 2021 for all types.

WHAT ARE ‘CONFORMITY FACTORS’?
A conformity factor is defined as a ‘not to exceed limit’ that takes into account a margin for error, which is present simply because the PEMS equipment does not deliver exactly the same results for each test. For example, PEMS are not as accurate as a full laboratory system so they will not measure to the same level of repeatable accuracy as a lab test. In practice, car manufacturers must set their design objectives well below the legal limit to be certain of complying.

Conformity factors explained in detail
In October 2015, the European Commission’s regulatory committee (TCMV) agreed a final conformity factor applicable from 2020 of 1 plus a margin for PEMS measurement error of 0.5. PEMS – or Portable Emission Measurement Systems – are installed on the back of the vehicle to measure real-world pollutant emissions and are complimentary to laboratory testing of pollutants. A ‘conformity factor’ then is the cap by which the Euro 6 NOx emission limit would be allowed to be exceeded in real world driving – measured in the RDE test – effectively providing a ‘not-to-exceed limit’.

This margin of error exists simply because PEMS equipment has various inaccuracies. For example, PEMS are not as accurate as a full laboratory system so they will not measure to the same level of repeatable accuracy as a laboratory test. In addition, PEMS are affected by altitude and ambient temperature, as well as by the tolerances and errors of various sensors and instruments taking signals from the vehicle and elsewhere necessary for the PEMS systems to work, by condensation in the exhaust sample line, by slippage and drift in the calibration of the PEMS system over a two-hour RDE trip.

A conformity factor of 1 means the Euro 6 NOx limit of 80mg/km for a diesel car must be met over an RDE test. This is fully in line with the request of the European Parliament to have a conformity factor that is as low as possible and which only reflects measurement error.

In practice, car manufacturers must set their design objectives well below the legal limit to be certain of complying and to account for the risk that PEMS on any particular day may have an even higher error margin.

This means that emissions that are the product of the ‘normal driving’ conditions that the average driver will encounter on a day-to-day basis, will be far below this ‘not to exceed limit’, because in real life worst-case scenarios of driving are very rare.

While I think the January 2020 date for the lower conformity factor to kick should have been at least a year earlier your argument that this test means nothing and there are no incentives to eliminate diesels is complete guff. There's a very real incentive for manufacturers to eliminate diesels from January 2020 since some of the equipment needed to get below these targets may not even fit into small cars.

cros13

If you want to discuss testing cycles do it in the appropriate thread

zilog_jones

aliveandkicking wrote: »

There's a very real incentive for manufacturers to eliminate diesels from January 2020 since some of the equipment needed to get below these targets may not even fit into small cars.

Are you talking about SCR, or will they need to add even more junk to the exhaust systems? Fortunately, people seem to be learning from their mistakes that diesels in small cars (especially superminis) is mostly pointless anyway.