Guesstimate my efficiency (or lack)

DrPhilG

Vague question, apologies if I'm asking an impossible question.

Have a bungalow, 1950 sq ft/180 sq m. Oil burner is located in the garage approximately 15-20m away from the point of entry to the house. There is also a slack burner in the garage which connects to the system by going up and over the garage roof space and connects at the oil burner.

The heat then travels across the yard as shown in the orange line. I didn't build the house, but given that there is a dry line there even if there's an inch of snow on the ground, I suspect that the insulation of those pipes is bloody awful and I'm losing a ton of heat.



I had considered lifting the concrete and relaying/insulating the pipes, but then I thought about going one better. Move the oil burner across the garage so it's close to the slack burner, which removes the heat loss by the long run between the 2. Then run a new line directly across the back of the house, (green line).

The unanswerable question is, how much more efficient would that actually make the system? Am I looking at a 50% reduction in oil/coal costs (which would make the cost and hassle worth it) or would the improvement be minimal and not worth the bother?

I realise this is a vague question but I'm trying to get a rough idea to help me decide on whether to start ripping up the back yard!

K.Flyer

I'm not going to try work out percentages of improvement, but if it is quite old then anything you do using modern insulation techniques would have to show a significant improvement.

Here is an example of serious heat loss.
None of the snow was manually cleared away, it melted as a result of the heat loss through antiquated insulation.

JamesM

DrPhilG wrote: »

Vague question, apologies if I'm asking an impossible question.

Have a bungalow, 1950 sq ft/180 sq m. Oil burner is located in the garage approximately 15-20m away from the point of entry to the house. There is also a slack burner in the garage which connects to the system by going up and over the garage roof space and connects at the oil burner.

The heat then travels across the yard as shown in the orange line. I didn't build the house, but given that there is a dry line there even if there's an inch of snow on the ground, I suspect that the insulation of those pipes is bloody awful and I'm losing a ton of heat.



I had considered lifting the concrete and relaying/insulating the pipes, but then I thought about going one better. Move the oil burner across the garage so it's close to the slack burner, which removes the heat loss by the long run between the 2. Then run a new line directly across the back of the house, (green line).

The unanswerable question is, how much more efficient would that actually make the system? Am I looking at a 50% reduction in oil/coal costs (which would make the cost and hassle worth it) or would the improvement be minimal and not worth the bother?

I realise this is a vague question but I'm trying to get a rough idea to help me decide on whether to start ripping up the back yard!

If you have a 30 year old boiler and replace it with a new Grant boiler and run new insulated pipes as you suggest, you could be very close to saving 50%. If your pipes are melting the snow and you just replace and insulate the pipes in the new location, you will make quite a saving, no one can tell what percentage.

DrPhilG

JamesM wrote: »

If you have a 30 year old boiler and replace it with a new Grant boiler and run new insulated pipes as you suggest, you could be very close to saving 50%. If your pipes are melting the snow and you just replace and insulate the pipes in the new location, you will make quite a saving, no one can tell what percentage.

House is only about 13 years old and I replaced the oil boiler with a condensing one when I moved here 6 years ago.

But definitely the pipes are poorly insulated. Not wite as bad as in the previous post but not far off.

The slack boiler we have should be able to heat the house 24/7 using about 4-5 bags of slack a week. Ours needs nearly 2 per day.

Thw main opposition to replacing the pipes is that we have a concrete yard and herself doesn't want to leave a big scar across the concrete!

So I would have the cost of repouring concrete as well as the pipe work itself! So if you have any tips on digging up pipes without breaking the concrete that would be good too, lol.

Tom44

Snow & ice melting point is anything above 1 degree Celsius.
Pipes are 75 degrees flow.
Yours could be anything from a low heat loss to a high heat loss.

Infra red thermal camera would tell a lot.
I've seen a ground temperature of 55 degrees before. OMG


Replace pipes.

DrPhilG

Tom44 wrote: »

Infra red thermal camera would tell a lot.
I've seen a ground temperature of 55 degrees before. OMG

I actually had a thermal imaging done of the house ages ago to see where we could improve insulation etc.

Never thought to get the ground checked.

Dtp1979

Could you not move the oil burner to the house wall. This would eliminate all pipework underground.

DrPhilG

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Could you not move the oil burner to the house wall. This would eliminate all pipework underground.

Eyesore. Boss lady says no.

DGOBS

Get some pants.

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

Get some pants.

DGOBS

Tom...I am being victimised!

(not asking for help...just thought you'd want to watch):D

Wearb

DGOBS wrote: »

Tom...I am being victimised!

(not asking for help...just thought you'd want to watch):D

About time he got his comeuppance eh Tom

jimf

tom is probably busy at the moment lots of flights out of cork to Cheltenham

gold cup day tomorrow

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

tom is probably busy at the moment lots of flights out of cork to Cheltenham

gold cup day tomorrow

Thought he had his own transport (boat) 🚣*♀️

Water John

Contact these for a quote for a horizontal drill. Get them to send it to the OH, by mistake, of course. Price mightn't be massive.
The hole needs to be for a 100mm core.

http://bothardrilling.ie/directional-drilling/

agusta

Tom flies too afaik

Wearb

agusta wrote: »

Tom flies too afaik

Kite?

agusta

Wearb wrote: »

Kite?

Vronsky

DrPhilG wrote: »

I actually had a thermal imaging done of the house ages ago to see where we could improve insulation etc.

Never thought to get the ground checked.

You don't need to get thermal imaging done. Just measure the temperature of the inlet pipe just inside the house when the biller gets up to temperature. Once you have your Delta T and know the flow rate of the pump then we can estimate what energy is lost to outside.

DrPhilG

Vronsky wrote: »

Once you have your Delta T and know the flow rate of the pump

You've lost me...

DGOBS

Wearb wrote: »

About time he got his comeuppance eh Tom

servivit in catino optime frigoris vindicta

gctest50

How about move the oil boiler to the back of the house in the meantime ?

Dtp1979

gctest50 wrote: »

How about move the oil boiler to the back of the house in the meantime ?

Already suggested. His misses won’t av it

DGOBS

And it got me in trouble with da law

jimf

DGOBS wrote: »

servivit in catino optime frigoris vindicta

there was a time around here when the mods wer awake that no cursing was allowed on boards

oh the standards have dropped off

Roadtoad

Man up, dig up, wrap up.

For the wrap up, don't use the 'attic grade' stuff from the local builders merchant, but a better industrial grade from someone like ATIL in Dublin. Rubber wrap it to keep it dry, although under a big slab it just might dry out itself eventually.
You are on your own for step 1 and 2.

DrPhilG

Water John wrote: »

Contact these for a quote for a horizontal drill. Get them to send it to the OH, by mistake, of course. Price mightn't be massive.
The hole needs to be for a 100mm core.

http://bothardrilling.ie/directional-drilling/

This is interesting.

Didn't think it would be feasible price wise. Would still presumably need a bit of digging at the house end because the pipes enter at the back of the house and go on through underneath the utility room to reach the hot press.

But a fairly minor amount compared to a trench across the whole yard.

Water John

Used often to put water pipes crossing a road. Also can be used to put in a new water pipe from the the boundary box to a house, esp if the old one is leaking.
It is driven by air compressor.

From your drawing and thinking the present run is 25m. Then the straight run looks to be about 16m. Don't know the price of insulated twin core, possibly €25/30 per m.

Water John

OP, this thread may be of interest to you. Crossing under road.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057855898

DrPhilG

Water John wrote: »

OP, this thread may be of interest to you. Crossing under road.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057855898

Thanks.

The bit about the saw I presume? Basically cut it finely and put the same piece back in after laying the pipe?

Interesting, especially as the horizontal drill option isn't happening. I emailed that company and they basically said that because they need. Fairly big hole at one end, they would make more of a mess than just ripping it up.