Letter from doctor!?!

silverdecks

I was renewing my licence recently and my local firearms office has told me that he wont deal with applications unless there is a letter from my doctor stating no concerns etc. Has anyone had anything like this before? I find it a bit of an over reach!

Doltanian

It is like a roundabout version of a mental health background check.

SpannerMonkey

heard of this in the UK but not in ireland . is it not up to them to contact your doctor if they have concerns? is that not why you provide your doctors name and references

banie01

Perhaps they are seeking confirmation that you are not of "unsound mind"
As outlined in the legislation?

banie01

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

heard of this in the UK but not in ireland . is it not up to them to contact your doctor if they have concerns? is that not why you provide your doctors name and references

Good point, does the form include permission for the Gardaì to contact your Doctor directly?

Kran

I had to get a letter from the doctor one time to get permission for a sound moderator.All the letter said was that I wanted one, no mention of why or if he recommends it to prevent hearing damage etc. Took five seconds and cost €35.

Sparks

The form includes permission for them to contact your doctor. You getting a statement from your doctor is not normal and it is certainly not part of the Act and therefore cannot be a blanket precondition - it would mean the super was in contempt of the supreme court's verdict from the Dunne case.

Silverdecks, you might pass on the details to your FCP rep, whomever that is; this is the sort of thing that needs to be brought up in that forum.

silverdecks

So this letter is blatantly wrong? It seems this firearms officer is saying that this letter must accompany ever application including renewals. I think it seems a fierce over reach!

extremetaz

yup - never heard of it being required before.

BattleCorp

silverdecks wrote: »

So this letter is blatantly wrong? It seems this firearms officer is saying that this letter must accompany ever application including renewals. I think it seems a fierce over reach!

If the FO has concerns, give him/her your renewal form with your doctor's contact details on it. If they have any concerns, then they should phone the doctor themselves. That's the whole point about putting that information on the renewal form.

I'd go back into the station, be polite and tell them that you aren't submitting a letter with the renewal as there is no legal obligation to do so. Tell them they are free to contact your doctor, the details are provided on the form.

The main thing is to be firm but polite. The Gardaí don't get to make up the law. They have to apply it 'as is'.

Sparks

silverdecks wrote: »

So this letter is blatantly wrong? It seems this firearms officer is saying that this letter must accompany ever application including renewals. I think it seems a fierce over reach!

That is blatantly wrong. It's contempt of court by the garda involved - who I'm pretty sure is not the super?

Conchurl

the new FO in my area is also doing this with the last 18 months or so the older FO had no problem but the new lad is a bit awkward but as i have a few guns and renewals at different times i need a new letter each time i cant use the same letter for a renewal now and use it again in a few months time. the doctor charges me €20-€30 for the letter but sometimes he does it for free

BattleCorp

Conchurl wrote: »

the new FO in my area is also doing this with the last 18 months or so the older FO had no problem but the new lad is a bit awkward but as i have a few guns and renewals at different times i need a new letter each time i cant use the same letter for a renewal now and use it again in a few months time. the doctor charges me €20-€30 for the letter but sometimes he does it for free

Legally speaking, you don't need a letter at all. The Garda has put unnecessary expense on you for a rule they made up themselves.

I'm all for cooperation with the Gardaí but I won't do stuff that I'm not legally required to do.

Sparks

That kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing that needs bringing up in the FCP because someone from the Firearms Policy Unit in the Gardai needs to be calling those lads and providing a little bit more training in the specifics of the Act; they probably don't even know that that kind of thing isn't legal.

Conchurl

BattleCorp wrote: »

Legally speaking, you don't need a letter at all. The Garda has put unnecessary expense on you for a rule they made up themselves.

I'm all for cooperation with the Gardaí but I won't do stuff that I'm not legally required to do.

in my eyes its easier to get the letter than start causing hassle with the FO as he has no problem with me and i believe he is a nice lad and he just doesnt want to blamed if some lad goes a bit crazy he can just say shur the doctor said he was of sound mind.

BattleCorp

Conchurl wrote: »

in my eyes its easier to get the letter than start causing hassle with the FO as he has no problem with me and i believe he is a nice lad and he just doesnt want to blamed if some lad goes a bit crazy he can just say shur the doctor said he was of sound mind.

I know it's handier to get the letter but if the Gardaí get to start making up the law to suit themselves, where does it stop?

If he is concerned, he can phone the doctor. It's legal to do that.

solarwinds

To me that is an outright NO to any request of a letter from your doctor. You have his details filled in on your paperwork and that is sufficient. If your garda has any reason to suspect anything regarding your health it is his job to get the information first hand from your G.P. you have done what you have been asked in providing his contact details.
As for not wanting to upset your f.o. by being awkward but sorry NO to that as well. If he wants to make up rules as he goes along and punish you for not obeying them then fine. Let your Super request of you in writing a doctors letter or state that he is not granting your licence until you produce one. Everyone is sound till something goes wrong then your on your own.
I would do as suggested go in and politely but firmly say no i have provided you with the contact details its up to you after that.

BattleCorp

solarwinds wrote: »

Let your Super request of you in writing a doctors letter or state that he is not granting your licence until you produce one. .

I don't think you are under any obligation to obey the Super's request for you to provide a doctor's letter either.

A Super has the discretion to insist on better security than the minimum standards set out in the guidelines but they don't have the power to ask you to provide a letter from your doctor.

Sparks

Conchurl wrote: »

in my eyes its easier to get the letter than start causing hassle with the FO as he has no problem with me and i believe he is a nice lad and he just doesnt want to blamed if some lad goes a bit crazy he can just say shur the doctor said he was of sound mind.

That's a can of worms.

If the purpose of the letter is to say that you're not loopy, well:
(a) your GP is not a psychologist or a psychiatrist and is not qualified to give a medical opinion on that; and asking him for a written letter where he gives such an opinion is kindof opening him up to a malpractice suit.

(b) Section 4 is written in such a way that the licencing officer MAY NOT issue a licence unless they are convinced you meet all of the conditions in section 4(2) and WILL CONTINUE TO MEET THEM for the duration of the licence.

For that reason, and because no competent medical professional would testify as to your mental state in the future, "not being a looper" isn't in section 4(2). Referring to your GP is covered in 4(3) and specifically refers to your medical history, ie. your current state and past state.

Which means that if some lad does "go crazy"*, the doctors letter would be as much use to shunt blame off the licencing officer as a chocolate teapot.



* BTW, apologies for the language to anyone who's had mental health issues of any kind; I know it's bloody appalling, I just don't have any better colloquial terms and don't have enough competency to know the correct terms.

Conchurl

Sparks wrote: »

That's a can of worms.

If the purpose of the letter is to say that you're not loopy, well:
(a) your GP is not a psychologist or a psychiatrist and is not qualified to give a medical opinion on that; and asking him for a written letter where he gives such an opinion is kindof opening him up to a malpractice suit.

(b) Section 4 is written in such a way that the licencing officer MAY NOT issue a licence unless they are convinced you meet all of the conditions in section 4(2) and WILL CONTINUE TO MEET THEM for the duration of the licence.

For that reason, and because no competent medical professional would testify as to your mental state in the future, "not being a looper" isn't in section 4(2). Referring to your GP is covered in 4(3) and specifically refers to your medical history, ie. your current state and past state.

Which means that if some lad does "go crazy"*, the doctors letter would be as much use to shunt blame off the licencing officer as a chocolate teapot.



* BTW, apologies for the language to anyone who's had mental health issues of any kind; I know it's bloody appalling, I just don't have any better colloquial terms and don't have enough competency to know the correct terms.

any letter i have ever got from the doctor has said "MY NAME is in my opinion fit to hold a firearms licence"

solarwinds

BattleCorp wrote: »

solarwinds wrote: »

Let your Super request of you in writing a doctors letter or state that he is not granting your licence until you produce one. .

I don't think you are under any obligation to obey the Super's request for you to provide a doctor's letter either.

A Super has the discretion to insist on better security than the minimum standards set out in the guidelines but they don't have the power to ask you to provide a letter from your doctor.

Your right.
What i was getting at was trying to get their reasoning in writing so as to better challenge them with. A verbal request or a phone call never happened, not worth the paper its written on.
By attaching a G.P. letter to your paperwork is something you decided to do yourself as there is no record or formal request made by the Gardai for it.
Everything has to be in writing these days and not just with the Gardai.

Sparks

Conchurl wrote: »

any letter i have ever got from the doctor has said "MY NAME is in my opinion fit to hold a firearms licence"

Which is a different thing from what the OP was saying there (which was that the GPs letter would be a defence for the garda if something happened in the future).

gunny123

Is this not exactly the type of situation the fcp was set up to sort out ? Supers/chief supers making it up as they go along ?

zeissman

Conchurl wrote: »

in my eyes its easier to get the letter than start causing hassle with the FO as he has no problem with me and i believe he is a nice lad and he just doesnt want to blamed if some lad goes a bit crazy he can just say shur the doctor said he was of sound mind.

It might be easier to get the letter but it's the wrong thing to do.
A couple of supers in donegal won't issue moderators for rifles unless the applicant gets the serial number of his rifle stamped on the moderator.
They are getting away with it because nobody will challenge them.

alanmc

For my first ever license, the FO called me and asked for my permission to contact my doctor (details were already on my FCA1).
I have had health issues in the past and disclosed them as part of my application.
But the FO was the one who asked the doctor for the letter.

grassroot1

As law abiding citizens firearms owners show respect for the law and those who enforce it. However this does not mean we must endure unfair treatment by those who make up law to suit themselves.
There is no requirement to obtain such a letter it is simply another way to discourage a person from seeking a firearm.
Please highlight this situation to the officer involved they may not know they wrong to request this letter.
We show respect for the Gardai but they in turn must respect us

meathstevie

alanmc wrote: »

For my first ever license, the FO called me and asked for my permission to contact my doctor (details were already on my FCA1).
I have had health issues in the past and disclosed them as part of my application.
But the FO was the one who asked the doctor for the letter.

And that's exactly the way it should be done.

You made an honest disclosure and the Garda involved basically said; " Mr Alanmc, I need to check that with your doctor. Are the contact details on the form correct and are you ok with me contacting the doctor ?"

It provides for provenance of the source of information and it will leave a written record for both the Gardai and the doctor to justify request and disclosure of what would otherwise be confidential information.

Grizzly 45

Whats a doctor??
I haven't been to one in years, and only last year to get an ingrown toenail sorted out.So he is supposed to judge whether I'm of sound mind to own a firearm from that medical procedure?:rolleyes:
Seriously how is a doc going to judge you are of sound mind and body?Unless you are sitting there dressed up as Napoleon,dribbling and muttering "Me want gun.Gun good!Me want gun!"

Sparks

That would be the whole "professional" part of "medical professional" - ie. they would say they couldn't make that assessment due to lack of contact and refuse to sign such a letter.
Anything else.... well, it'd be malpractice.

(And refusing a cert on the basis that you couldn't produce a letter would be illegal from the get-go, let alone if you couldn't produce it because it'd be malpractice to sign such a letter).

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Whats a doctor??
I haven't been to one in years, and only last year to get an ingrown toenail sorted out.So he is supposed to judge whether I'm of sound mind to own a firearm from that medical procedure?:rolleyes:
Seriously how is a doc going to judge you are of sound mind and body?Unless you are sitting there dressed up as Napoleon,dribbling and muttering "Me want gun.Gun good!Me want gun!"

But the fact you have not been to a doctor in yonks itself speaks volumes. If you were having mental health issues, its likely you would be visiting the quack regularly and often.

Which leads to the question, what mental health issues bar you from holding a licence ? Depression after a death in the family ? The winter blues ?

Sadly i have know three people who have taken their own lives in the past decade, they all had access to firearms, but none of them used a firearm.

Sparks

If you were having mental health issues, its likely you would be visiting the quack regularly and often.

...or, knowing the stigma we attach to the phrase "mental health" in this country, you'd be avoiding him like the plague because you'd assume that the moment your local Garda with his years of medical training heard your doctor even mention the phrase would be the moment he yanked your firearms certificate regardless of the actual evaluation of whether or not that was necessary.

It's almost ironic - the change brought in by Abbylara, designed to prevent "crazy people" from getting firearms, puts a roadblock between any firearms owner and any kind of psychologist. Stress at work? Stress at home? Financial worries? Well, you better just shut up and get on with it, or to quote today's report into suicide in middle aged men's "why do they do it" section,

simply ‘got on with it’ and ‘sorted out their own problems’

(Hint: this does not end well for the people involved).

gunny123

But in fairness, most men are allergic to the medical profession full stop, no matter if it is mental health, bad back, odd pain in the chest etc etc. The "ah sure it will be grand" attitude prevails.

Sparks

Most middle aged men.
Kids these days, with their "health is important" and "it's best to keep an eye on these things" nonsense. You'd think the average life expectancy was going up or something.

cavan shooter

If your in The NARGC Chris Gavigan is the man to talk to he will raise it directly with the licensing lads in the Phoenix park. Didnt they sign an agreement last year

https://nargc.ie/n-a-r-g-c-garda-siochana-strike-new-accord/

Even if your not a member share the information, you never know.