Asking relatives to decide how we should vote

goulders

Below is a letter sent to two young Ladies, (16 & 17 yr old)

I have a bit of a question for both of you. No doubt you have heard about the upcoming referendum to repeal the 8th amendment. Myself and Gran have talked a lot about this and which way we might vote, we don't know yet.

We are thinking that no matter which way we vote neither of us will ever have to make a decision about a real life situation. We are thinking that it may be something you both may have to face someday. (hope not but who knows).

16 & 17 yr old of today may be affected, the problem is ye don't have a vote.
I am asking you to have a serious think about the referendum and if you had a vote which way would you vote ? Let us know because we want to give you our votes, you tell us and we will vote that way. Maybe even in a class discussion ask other classmates to ask their grandparents for their votes.

Ye don't have a vote but ya should have a voice.

What do you think of the idea.

Nana & Granda

Colonel Claptrap

It's overly simplistic.

Dear Adam & Steve,

Your grandfather and I are not gay. The referendum on gay marriage does not affect us. Would you like our vote?

Love Nan & Grandad.



Following this train of thought, who is affected by these proposed amendments:

New court of appeal
Seanad abolition
Oireachtas Enquiries
Judge renumeration
The death penalty
Cabinet confidentiality
Divorve

The whole point of a referenda is that everybody gets a say, not just those directly affected by it.
As citizens, we own our constitution. Subjugation of our right to vote in referenda does not sit easy with me. Even if it's voluntary.

goulders

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It's overly simplistic.

Dear Adam & Steve,

Your grandfather and I are not gay. The referendum on gay marriage does not affect us. Would you like our vote?

Love Nan & Grandad.



Following this train of thought, who is affected by these proposed amendments:

New court of appeal
Seanad abolition
Oireachtas Enquiries
Judge renumeration
The death penalty
Cabinet confidentiality
Divorve

The whole point of a referenda is that everybody gets a say, not just those directly affected by it.
As citizens, we own our constitution. Subjugation of our right to vote in referenda does not sit easy with me. Even if it's voluntary.

I can see your point on all of above but the last line defeats your argument.

The whole point of a referenda is that everybody gets a say, not just those directly affected by it.

16 & 17 year old's who may be directly affected by a result have no say.

A statement by lib dems re brexit yesterday

"The Lib Dem leader said the votes of the older generation had "crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come."

Chris_Heilong

All votes count, if you are unsure do some research and vote on which ever side has the best, most moral or whatever argument and vote that way.

Oldtree

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

All votes count, if you are unsure do some research and vote on which ever side has the best, most moral or whatever argument and vote that way.

It is NOT appropriate as they are under age. How far would you take it, to a eight year old. No one should give away their vote. Are gran and grandad afraid to vote as they see fit?

salmocab

Oldtree wrote: »

It is NOT appropriate as they are under age. How far would you take it, to a eight year old. No one should give away their vote. Are gran and grandad afraid to vote as they see fit?

Maybe they see fit to ask someone that may be affected, your right about the age thing though, there has to be a cut off.

goulders

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

All votes count, if you are unsure do some research and vote on which ever side has the best, most moral or whatever argument and vote that way.

You put your finger on our problem, which way to vote.

2 choices

I agree a woman has a right to decide.

I believe a baby has a right to life.

How many other have the same problem and just won't vote

Colonel Claptrap

goulders wrote: »

I can see your point on all of above but the last line defeats your argument.

The whole point of a referenda is that everybody gets a say, not just those directly affected by it.

16 & 17 year old's who may be directly affected by a result have no say.

A statement by lib dems re brexit yesterday

"The Lib Dem leader said the votes of the older generation had "crushed the hopes and aspirations of young people for years to come."

16 and 17 year olds cannot avail of same sex marriage until they are 18. Im open to correction but will 16 and 17 year olds be allowed access to abortion without parental consent in the event of repeal of the 8th?

Paradoxically, 16 and 17 year olds would be voting on issues which legally do not affect them until they are 18.

volchitsa

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

16 and 17 year olds cannot avail of same sex marriage until they are 18. Im open to correction but will 16 and 17 year olds be allowed access to abortion without parental consent in the event of repeal of the 8th?

Paradoxically, 16 and 17 year olds would be voting on issues which legally do not affect them until they are 18.

If a 12 year old is pregnant, and abortion is legal, is anyone going to say she has to give birth and become a mother (with high risks because of her body's physical immaturity) because sne is too young to vote?

So yes, a pregnant 16 year old may well ask for an abortion. Presumably with parental consent required I imagine, but maybe not always (eg what if the girl alleges her father raped her?). Because the alternative is parenthood, for which they are also too young.

Moonmumbler

I think it's good to remember that this is about allowing freedom of choice and feel sympathetic to the sentiment of the grandparents. I am personally pro-choice but see it in fairly black and white terms. Either allow the freedom of choice, i.e abortion "on demand" or no abortion at all and prosecute offenders. There is no middle ground without tying yourself up in moral complexities.

For those in the middle who are sympathetic to women who have been raped or with FFA pregnancies then the only logical outcome is to repeal the 8th and allow abortion on demand. After all, how can a woman wait for the proceedings of a court case before being "allowed" to have an abortion? This would cause distress and later term abortions.

Also, I'd ask yourself why you care so much what others choose to do with their own bodies, and even the unborn and their lost potential, to actively vote against someone's personal choice...

Phoebas

Moonmumbler wrote: »

There is no middle ground without tying yourself up in moral complexities.

Anyone not willing to tie themselves up in moral complexities should probably step aside from this one.

Oldtree

salmocab wrote: »

Maybe they see fit to ask someone that may be affected, your right about the age thing though, there has to be a cut off.

It wouldn't be an issue for me if it was a family discussion and then gran and grandad decided how they would vote. It's the "give away" the vote bit that is imo ludicrous. Gran and grandad are not dead yet and cannot pass on the responsibility of their vote to those not alowed to vote.

Colonel Claptrap

volchitsa wrote: »

If a 12 year old is pregnant, and abortion is legal, is anyone going to say she has to give birth and become a mother (with high risks because of her body's physical immaturity) because sne is too young to vote?

So yes, a pregnant 16 year old may well ask for an abortion. Presumably with parental consent required I imagine, but maybe not always (eg what if the girl alleges her father raped her?). Because the alternative is parenthood, for which they are also too young.

I completely agree.

Largely this comes down to what age we think the vote should be allowed. Separately, I think that the OP's premise of "I am not affected by this so I should not vote" is flawed.

I hear a lot of people who say abortion affects women's health so why are men allowed vote on it?

Taking your example of the 12 year old who is pregnant. Shouldn't men of Ireland be allowed vote repeal to help this girl's tragic situation?

Excluding men or elderly people would be a huge mistake. Even if it was voluntary. Every citizen should have a voice. Adults should protect children until they are old enough to use that voice at the ballot box.

Phoebas

goulders wrote: »

Let us know because we want to give you our votes, you tell us and we will vote that way.

How are you going to choose who to give your vote to?

Maybe just make it simple and give one vote each to each side.

volchitsa

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I completely agree.

Largely this comes down to what age we think the vote should be allowed. Separately, I think that the OP's premise of "I am not affected by this so I should not vote" is flawed.

I hear a lot of people who say abortion affects women's health so why are men allowed vote on it?

Taking your example of the 12 year old who is pregnant. Shouldn't men of Ireland be allowed vote repeal to help this girl's tragic situation?

Excluding men or elderly people would be a huge mistake. Even if it was voluntary. Every citizen should have a voice. Adults should protect children until they are old enough to use that voice at the ballot box.

My opinion on the vote for this is that any particular abortion should not be anyone's decision except the people directly concerned.

However we have to vote to reach that situation, and in a democracy everyone is entitled to be heard, man or woman. So of course men should vote.

I hope they will vote, not to allow "all women" to decide who may have an abortion, but to allow people directly concerned in a particular pregnancy, (and that may well be a couple not just a woman), to continue that pregnancy or not.

On the OP, Im not sure about "giving your vote away", but I do think it's a lovely way to open a dialogue with the younger generation about an important subject.

And I'm not even that sure that the grandchildren will always be more pro choice than the grandparents, IME many older women are very much aware of the harsh realities of pregnancy and of how previous generations of women were treated by society. Another reason it's important for the generations to talk about it.

jimmycrackcorm

I like this idea of giving your view away to save the bother of actually expending some thought and consideration into the actual debate.

I'll then just vote the opposite to conclude my antipathy.

Moonmumbler

Phoebas wrote: »

Moonmumbler wrote: »

There is no middle ground without tying yourself up in moral complexities.

Anyone not willing to tie themselves up in moral complexities should probably step aside from this one.

No, the point is that there is no resolution in the middle ground. Take rape for example: those who believe in the right to life of unborn but who think women who have been raped should have the choice to abort... The unborn isn't any less innocent in this case and the woman isn't any less a victim either. Why allow the abortion of a foetus conceived by rape but not a foetus conceived by mistake? What difference does the morality of this have from the point of view of the unborn and why is the victim of rape allowed to abort but not a woman who made a mistake?

At the end of the day, there is something highly distasteful in moralising about other people's bodies and choices. You either allow women the choice at the expense of the unborn or you favour the unborn at the expense of many women and continue outsourcing the problem to other countries. That is cowardice and hypocrisy, in my opinion.

salmocab

Oldtree wrote: »

It wouldn't be an issue for me if it was a family discussion and then gran and grandad decided how they would vote. It's the "give away" the vote bit that is imo ludicrous. Gran and grandad are not dead yet and cannot pass on the responsibility of their vote to those not alowed to vote.

Well how people make up their minds is their own business, if they are happy to do it this way or toss a coin that’s their business. So long as people are happy with how they’ve voted I don’t see an issue with how they made up their minds

Oldtree

salmocab wrote: »

Well how people make up their minds is their own business, if they are happy to do it this way or toss a coin that’s their business. So long as people are happy with how they’ve voted I don’t see an issue with how they made up their minds

Yes it is their business, but the point is they didn't make up their minds.

end of the road

goulders wrote: »

You put your finger on our problem, which way to vote.

2 choices

I agree a woman has a right to decide.

I believe a baby has a right to life.

How many other have the same problem and just won't vote

it's a very simple problem to get around. which of the 2 do you value that bit more. a woman being able to decide, or the unborn continuing to have the right to life.
this is your vote, not your grandchildren's vote. you have to vote your way, not their way. use your vote. vote for the outcome you agree with, not what others agree with.

goulders

Phoebas wrote: »

How are you going to choose who to give your vote to?

Maybe just make it simple and give one vote each to each side.

easier than that, we will give one vote to each.

The 17 year old will miss her vote by 6 weeks and the sixteen year old is reasonably mature.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Thread title changed to reflect the topic.

Also, please note that there is an ongoing thread on the putative abortion referendum:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057822815

While people can discuss the referendum issues in this thread to give context to the OP's question, this thread isn't suitable for substantive argument about the pros and cons of Article 40.3.3

salmocab

Oldtree wrote: »

Yes it is their business, but the point is they didn't make up their minds.

Look I dont honestly have strong views on this but if someone wants to let someone else make the decision then thats fine, I wouldnt do it and Im sure you wouldnt but if an old couple really havent any views on a subject and think lets let someone who may at some stage have skin in the game have our vote then Im fine with it.