Seatbelts on Bus/Coaches

Quackster

From my observations, the primary safety concern of bus transport in this country is not any particular operator's shortcomings, it's the vast majority of passengers who seem to be so intellectually challenged that they're completely oblivious to the need to put on their seatbelts.

end of the road

Quackster wrote: »

From my observations, the primary safety concern of bus transport in this country is not any particular operator's shortcomings, it's the vast majority of passengers who seem to be so intellectually challenged that they're completely oblivious to the need to put on their seatbelts.

when i used to be a user of the busses i never did it either. are coach passengers legally supposed to wear a seatbelt and if so when was this rule introduced?

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

when i used to be a user of the busses i never did it either. are coach passengers legally supposed to wear a seatbelt and if so when was this rule introduced?

I am not sure, but I understood that in the last few years, it was compulsory to use seat belts where fitted. This does not apply in the UK (including it's North West Province).

I suspect that seat belts were extended to coaches following the Navan fatal schoolbus crash about 10-12 years ago.
It does not seem to be enforced, and whenever I try to use them, they are more often than not, so badly maintained, that either I cannot use the belt, or if I do, wonder will I get it open in an emergency.

Stephen15

tabbey wrote: »

I am not sure, but I understood that in the last few years, it was compulsory to use seat belts where fitted. This does not apply in the UK (including it's North West Province).

I suspect that seat belts were extended to coaches following the Navan fatal schoolbus crash about 10-12 years ago.
It does not seem to be enforced, and whenever I try to use them, they are more often than not, so badly maintained, that either I cannot use the belt, or if I do, wonder will I get it open in an emergency.

Most coaches come with seat belts fitted now for the international market. I don't think there is any specific requirement for coaches to have seatbelts only buses which carry schoolchildren, hence why some ex DB buses which have been sold off to privates have had seatbelts retrofitted as they are rented out for school tours etc.

It is a legal requirement in the UK or at least up North might even be an EU one to wear a seatbelt where fitted https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/wearing-seat-belt-and-exemptions, oddly enough I think some of the newer Translink Metro buses have seatbelts despite being intended for city services.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Most coaches come with seat belts fitted now for the international market. I don't think there is any specific requirement for coaches to have seatbelts only buses which carry schoolchildren, hence why some ex DB buses which have been sold off to privates have had seatbelts retrofitted as they are rented out for school tours etc.

It is a legal requirement in the UK or at least up North think it an EU one to wear a seatbelt where fitted https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/wearing-seat-belt-and-exemptions, oddly enough I think some of the newer Translink Metro buses have seatbelts despite being intended for city services.

dB is restricted 65km/h.
They also don't go outside the 35km area where it's a legal requirement to have belts fitted and must be used if provided.

35 km or near enough to that.

It would be recommended to use either way as coaches can legally travel at 100km/h

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

As a bus driver I'm telling you all now , on vehicles that are capable of exceeding or licenced to exceed 65km/h it is compulsory to have seat belts fitted. And where fitted must be worn by passengers.

This was thought to me when I was learning to drive buses / coaches.

Dublin bus are a city service with a maximum speed of 65km/h hence no seatbelts.

Someone just mentioned Translink buses coming with seat belts is because they are limited to 50mp/h / 80kp/h

What is the law on seatbelts?

Where a seatbelt is fitted, it must be worn. The relevant legislation falls under
Compulsory Use of Safety Belts and Child Restraints in Motor Vehicles Regulations 2006 (S.I. No. 240/2006).

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2006/si/240/made/en/print


Also it is an offence by way of a fine as stated here on the RSA website

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/Your-Vehicle-/Road-Worthiness--Related-Offences/Seatbelts/


Somebody did mention children on buses. They are required if their sole purpose is to transport children , i.e a school bus regardless of speed of vehicle type.


The best way of explaining this to people is, when you are a passenger in a bus that has seat belts, you have to wear them.

It's the same when you are a passenger in a car you have to wear a seatbelt.
*Unless medically certified not to.


Just a note for anyone that may use bus Eireann, there are stickers on the windows of a blue circle with an imagery of a person wearing a seatbelt. Also on the signs / display it is there again and also the newer coaches have announcements on the build in intercom saying the following:

Bus Eireann welcomes you on board, your safety is our priority. Please use the seatbelts provided. (Something to that extent)

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

dB is restricted 65km/h.
They also don't go outside the 35km area where it's a legal requirement to have belts fitted and must be used if provided.

35 km or near enough to that.

It would be recommended to use either way as coaches can legally travel at 100km/h

Yes I'm aware I was more talking about the fact that some privates have retrofitted seat belts on ex DB buses I think it's so they can carry school children but I'm open to correction.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes I'm aware I was more talking about the fact that some privates have retrofitted seat belts on ex DB buses I think it's so they can carry school children but I'm open to correction.

Correct the nta put a stop to dB doing private hires and so on.

Now private operators have seat belts fitted so they can now take the work dB did do.

I'll be honest though it's really stupid as all it done is made more schools just come out wait for bus in service and take it over and I know this for a fact.

So questions are what's the difference between the dB in service or on private hire as neither had seat belts but now must to carry children but don't in service on a route....

L1011

I've been on a private operator taking standing passengers in a (belt fitted) mini coach on the m50 at normal speed. Is it something fully enforced?

punisher5112

L1011 wrote: »

I've been on a private operator taking standing passengers in a (belt fitted) mini coach on the m50 at normal speed. Is it something fully enforced?

Shouldn't have standing passengers if going above 65km/h.

The cops could pull and fine operator and passengers for none use of belts.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

I'll be honest though it's really stupid as all it done is made more schools just come out wait for bus in service and take it over and I know this for a fact.

So questions are what's the difference between the dB in service or on private hire as neither had seat belts but now must to carry children but don't in service on a route....

I'm fairly sure schools have always been doing it. It's more a case of penny pinching by schools rather than because DB stopped hiring out buses it's around €300 to hire a bus compared to 80c per child with a Child Leap Card, do the maths and let's say for a class of 30 children that's 0.80×30=€24×2(for the return)=€48 for let's two adults supervising then that's €2.60×2=€5.10×2=€10.20 works out at €58.10 compared to about €250-300 so you can see why.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm fairly sure schools have always been doing it. It's more a case of penny pinching by schools rather than because DB stopped hiring out buses it's around €300 to hire a bus compared to 80c per child with a Child Leap Card, do the maths and let's say for a class of 30 children that's 0.80×30=€24×2(for the return)=€48 for let's two adults supervising then that's €2.60×2=€5.10×2=€10.20 works out at €58.10 compared to about €250-300 so you can see why.

I've just noticed it's more frequent then it use to be.

dB were in a lot of cases providing buses at no cost for community functions and school outings etc.

It was good pr but of course I'm sure they are happy as brought costs down.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Shouldn't have standing passengers if going above 65km/h.

The cops could pull and fine operator and passengers for none use of belts.

Standing passengers is more enforceable as it may be be more obivious from the outside. Seatbelts on buses are completely unenforceable it's only something that will legally cover a bus company in case of an accident. If the guards stopped a bus and passengers were not wearing seatbelts then they could not prosecute as the bus/coach would be stationary.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Standing passengers is more enforceable as it may be be more obivious from the outside. Seatbelts on buses are completely unenforceable it's only something that will legally cover a bus company in case of an accident. If the guards stopped a bus and passengers were not wearing seatbelts then they could prosecute as the bus/coach would be stationary.

Correct.

Stephen15

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Dublin bus are a city service with a maximum speed of 65km/h hence no seatbelts.

Someone just mentioned Translink buses coming with seat belts is because they are limited to 50mp/h / 80kp/h

What is the law on seatbelts?

Thats odd the buses I was talking about are Translink Metro buses which are basically the same as DB only for Belfast. Yet some of the buses have seatbelts which is very unusual for a city service. Why would Translink Metro buses not have the same top speed as a DB bus after all they are all more or less the same spec Wrightbus vehicles. I think only some Belfast seatbelts not all but even still.

belfast stephen

Metro have buses with seatbelts to use on schools and private hires

punisher5112

dB does have a bus with belts think it's just one though.

It's all in white. And a bit of colours and community written on it.

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

dB does have a bus with belts think it's just one though.

It's all in white. And a bit of colours and community written on it.

It's the community spirit bus used for bringing schools and clubs to various different events and days out, usually in "under privileged areas". It's not in everyday service.

http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/CommunityBuses.html

tabbey

L1011 wrote: »

I've been on a private operator taking standing passengers in a (belt fitted) mini coach on the m50 at normal speed. Is it something fully enforced?

Standing on a minibus - scary!

bk

MOD: Interesting conversation about seatbelts on bus/coaches, so I've separated it out from the Dublin Coach Experience thread.

bk

Last summer I was on a BE coach that had people standing along the center of the coach due to all seats taken.

In fairness to the BE driver, I suspect he kept it under 65km/h until the standing passengers were off.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

So questions are what's the difference between the dB in service or on private hire as neither had seat belts but now must to carry children but don't in service on a route....

Sometimes the law can be a bit of a blunt instrument.

It is probably totally fine for children to be on double decker city style buses going less then 65km/h (specially around Dublin where they'll be averaging only 17km/h anyway).

However this law was more introduced to tackle the problem and real danger of children being transported on buses in rural areas, where speeds are a lot higher and road conditions much worse.

It was probably just easier to make it a blanket law, then saying seat belts should be on some buses with kids versus others without.

Del2005

punisher5112 wrote: »

Shouldn't have standing passengers if going above 65km/h.

The cops could pull and fine operator and passengers for none use of belts.

I was following a Garda van which was behind a 4x4 doing 100km\h while towing a trailer, they didn't do anything. The only thing enforced in this country is cars exceeding the speed limit and DUI.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

Sometimes the law can be a bit of a blunt instrument.

It is probably totally fine for children to be on double decker city style buses going less then 65km/h (specially around Dublin where they'll be averaging only 17km/h anyway).

However this law was more introduced to tackle the problem and real danger of children being transported on buses in rural areas, where speeds are a lot higher and road conditions much worse.

It was probably just easier to make it a blanket law, then saying seat belts should be on some buses with kids versus others without.

I drive routes where full speed is reached and no issue with kids travelling on board.

Also look at it this way....

Family get on with very small kids and leave them off to run around,stand on seats jump around etc....

If in a car they strap them in.

It's one thing that really gets to me as if for whatever reason I must stop suddenly or just take a turn these people then claim you injured their child.

bk

I believe the size and weight of buses and coaches and the relatively lower speeds mean that you are much less likely to be seriously injured in crashes. Which is why seat belts are rarely required in city buses.

You are 40 times safer riding in a bus then a car, so they aren't quiet comparable.

While it has become increasingly common for coaches to have seat belts, there is very little scientific evidence that they actually increase safety.

That isn't to say that you used take advantage of them when supplied, but there is much less need for them then in a car.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

I believe the size and weight of buses and coaches and the relatively lower speeds mean that you are much less likely to be seriously injured in crashes. Which is why seat belts are rarely required in city buses.

You are 40 times safer riding in a bus then a car, so they aren't quiet comparable.

While it has become increasingly common for coaches to have seat belts, there is very little scientific evidence that they actually increase safety.

That isn't to say that you used take advantage of them when supplied, but there is much less need for them then in a car.

Did you see the bus after the crash last week...

Very lucky there were no passengers onboard.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

I believe the size and weight of buses and coaches and the relatively lower speeds mean that you are much less likely to be seriously injured in crashes. Which is why seat belts are rarely required in city buses.

You are 40 times safer riding in a bus then a car, so they aren't quiet comparable.

While it has become increasingly common for coaches to have seat belts, there is very little scientific evidence that they actually increase safety.

That isn't to say that you used take advantage of them when supplied, but there is much less need for them then in a car.

Did you see the picture attached of the crash last week, very lucky no passengers were onboard.

Del2005

punisher5112 wrote: »

Did you see the bus after the crash last week...

Very lucky there were no passengers onboard.

1 incident is never a basis for anything. There is a plane crash today in Nepal and a helicopter crashed yesterday in New York they are both still safe methods of travelling. How many thousands of people are travelling on buses and coaches everyday in Ireland and how many serious crashes have their been?

punisher5112

Del2005 wrote: »

1 incident is never a basis for anything. There is a plane crash today in Nepal and a helicopter crashed yesterday in New York they are both still safe methods of travelling. How many thousands of people are travelling on buses and coaches everyday in Ireland and how many serious crashes have their been?

Yes it is as without these crashes you say safety wouldn't have been improved over the many years to help prevent them occurring again.

If they are so interested about child safety my argument is what is the difference really as kids are let roam as they like as it's a bus.

bk

One off incidents are never a good guide to setting regulations. *

In the US, each year, 20 people die in accidents in coaches out of 700 million trips a year. While those 20 people are obviously tragic, the numbers make it by far one of the safest ways to travel, even safer then flying.

You should check out the concept of Compartmentalisation, basically the high backed seats of coaches (and same for trains, note no seat belts there either), act like airbags in a crash, the person is thrown into the seat in front of them. Of course they will likely suffer injury, but very unlikely to be fatal. Though those sitting in the front row of a coach should definitely wear a belt.

Of course the above is related to coaches, which are quiet different to city buses. Which are low floor and tend not to have high backed seats and people standing. But they then make up for it with low max speeds and of course very low average speeds.

* BTW Yes I saw the pics, while it looked nasty, I suspect that even had their been passengers unboard, there wouldn't have been any fatalities amongst them, unless one of them had been unlucky enough to be standing at the front next to the driver.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

If they are so interested about child safety my argument is what is the difference really as kids are let roam as they like as it's a bus.

In reality, it doesn't make much difference. I suspect it was mostly political. There was a tragic accident in which children died and there was a public outcry and the political decision was likely made to make seat belts mandatory in order to quail the public outcry, even though their is little science to back it up.

It was an emotional response more then anything else.

The world is full of such regulations. Lookup the concept of "security theatre" when it comes to making people feel safer to fly, etc. You could say this is "safety theatre" and it can extend to many other areas, such as cycle helmets, etc.

Quackster

I was on a Bus Eireann coach some years ago that had to brake suddenly due to a muppet coming in the opposite direction deciding to pass out a line of traffic. The bus was rear-ended by a concrete mixer truck that had been up its ass.

No serious injuries, but there were plenty of bloody faces on the bus. Mine wasn't one of them though as I was wearing my seatbelt.

If a seatbelt is provided, it's of absolutely no inconvenience to use it. And IMO, you'd want to be pretty thick not to.

punisher5112

Quackster wrote: »

I was on a Bus Eireann coach some years ago that had to brake suddenly due to a muppet coming in the opposite direction deciding to pass out a line of traffic. The bus was rear-ended by a concrete mixer truck that had been up its ass.

No serious injuries, but there were plenty of bloody faces on the bus. Mine wasn't one of them though as I was wearing my seatbelt.

If a seatbelt is provided, it's of absolutely no inconvenience to use it. And IMO, you'd want to be pretty thick not to.

Very well put.

I drive in Dublin and outside also.


The bus is big and heavy so most crashes with cars etc usually aren't felt but the sudden stop is where most injuries are caused and this happens a lot due to others stepping out, pulling out etc etc.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

The thing is though, even if a driver overloads the vehicle with standing passengers (in the case of the bus Eireann mentioned here)

Even if he keeps the vehicle under 65km/h for the journey of the standing passengers it's still illegal

Nice of the driver to help out but it's his license he could lose.

It's all down again to what the vehicle is licensed to do. (Similar to a car with 5 seats. It's 5 seats only.)

If anyone gets a chance when about to board a bus, there is writing on the exterior of the vehicle to who it's licenced to and also passenger carrying capacity , normally along the lines of

Seating: 53
Standing: 0

Or

Seating: 49
Wheelchair: 1
Standing: 0

bk

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

The thing is though, even if a driver overloads the vehicle with standing passengers (in the case of the bus Eireann mentioned here)

Even if he keeps the vehicle under 65km/h for the journey of the standing passengers it's still illegal

Nice of the driver to help out but it's his license he could lose.

I agree, I don't want to give too much details as I don't want to get anyone in trouble. This particular route should really be two separate routes with two completely different types of bus/coach operating it.

But I think once you get outside of the Dublin commuter region, you will find this sort of stuff happening far more then you might think. It is much more wild west out there in the more rural areas of Ireland.

And it is somewhat understandable. It is easy for a Dublin Bus driver to say no more passengers when they know there will be another bus by in five minutes. It is much harder when you are down the country and the next bus might be three hours and people are shivering in the cold and begging to get on.

Obviously it is far from ideal, but such is life in rural Ireland.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

I agree, I don't want to give too much details as I don't want to get anyone in trouble. This particular route should really be two separate routes with two completely different types of bus/coach operating it.

But I think once you get outside of the Dublin commuter region, you will find this sort of stuff happening far more then you might think. It is much more wild west out there in the more rural areas of Ireland.

And it is somewhat understandable. It is easy for a Dublin Bus driver to say no more passengers when they know there will be another bus by in five minutes. It is much harder when you are down the country and the next bus might be three hours and people are shivering in the cold and begging to get on.

Obviously it is far from ideal, but such is life in rural Ireland.

It's not easy at all.... Telling people the bus is full is often met with tutting, abuse, shouting and moaning etc.

Some routes are 1hour till next bus even one with a 20 minutes service then turns into 40 and so on.

I totally understand it is easier in Dublin but that carry on anywhere especially if it's routine to be full and leaving people behind then a bigger bus/coach or extra ones should be put on.

If you are put out by this then the nta is where to complain to and more need to do so.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

bk wrote: »

I agree, I don't want to give too much details as I don't want to get anyone in trouble. This particular route should really be two separate routes with two completely different types of bus/coach operating it.

But I think once you get outside of the Dublin commuter region, you will find this sort of stuff happening far more then you might think. It is much more wild west out there in the more rural areas of Ireland.

And it is somewhat understandable. It is easy for a Dublin Bus driver to say no more passengers when they know there will be another bus by in five minutes. It is much harder when you are down the country and the next bus might be three hours and people are shivering in the cold and begging to get on.

Obviously it is far from ideal, but such is life in rural Ireland.

The issue is just because it's outside Dublin or a route with a low frequency, the driver cannot be expected to illegally overload a vehicle

If caught he will lose his license and job. If there was an accident and the standing people injured or killed then the driver will find themselves in jail.

The issue I have with customers if I turn up with a full bus is they think they can stand on the bus because the last driver let them.

It's my license and job so I won't but also it's not going to fix the issue of a route being under served either

The company will see X amount of people in a bus and nobody left behind so won't put on another bus etc.

But if people are frequently being left behind and complaints being made, then action will be taken

bk

Shrug, I'm not defending it, but it is what is happening out there.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

bk wrote: »

Shrug, I'm not defending it, but it is what is happening out there.

Oh I know, and don't take it the wrong way, I wasn't having a pop at you

It does happen regularly to this day, I see it every week almost but unfortunately one day something will happen and unfortunately the passengers and driver will be the ones to pay.

The company will also pay but not in the way others will.


But another thing I'd love to question is these people getting onto an already over crowded vehicle,

Would they get into a car that's already full ?
Most people see the danger here with a car with not enough seatbelts etc but with a larger vehicle that old irritating Irish attitude comes back "ah sure it'll be grand".

Stephen15

punisher5112 wrote: »

Very well put.

I drive in Dublin and outside also.


The bus is big and heavy so most crashes with cars etc usually aren't felt but the sudden stop is where most injuries are caused and this happens a lot due to others stepping out, pulling out etc etc.

Are you suggesting there should be seatbelts on DB buses. It would completely impractical to put seatbelts on DB buses as most will probably not use them and they'd likely be slashed by vandals or gum will probably end up in the receivers.

devnull

There's no need for seat belts on city buses, I don't even know any city that uses them on city buses, unless it's a smaller operator who uses a city bus as a dual purpose vehicle also for private hires and/or school work.

L1011

bk wrote: »

In the US, each year, 20 people die in accidents in coaches out of 700 million trips a year. While those 20 people are obviously tragic, the numbers make it by far one of the safest ways to travel, even safer then flying.

There hasn't been a single US commercial aviation death in years

bk

L1011 wrote: »

There hasn't been a single US commercial aviation death in years

Yes, a remarkable achievement, I think it has been almost 5 years now since the last commercial, scheduled, jet death on US soil *

* There are more small airplane, etc. crashes.

However all it takes is one big jet to crash to equal it over say a 10 year period and you would be close to equalling it.

Between 2001 and 2011 (not including 9/11 which would be unfair) their were 399 fatalities on commercial flights on US soil, so that works out at 39 per year.

Though in fairness things seemed to have gotten better since then, remarkably so. But all it takes is one 200 seater aircraft crash in 10 years to ruin that. Fingers crossed there won't be.

punisher5112

Stephen15 wrote: »

Are you suggesting there should be seatbelts on DB buses. It would completely impractical to put seatbelts on DB buses as most will probably not use them and they'd likely be slashed by vandals or gum will probably end up in the receivers.

No Stephen I was trying to make a point of what's the difference.

I carry school kids and full classes out on day trip etc. There are no belts but if they hire the same bus it must have belts.

Stephen15

A biggie for potential overcrowding on coaches would be rail replacement services as it would be very hard for a railway operator to estimate the amount of buses and what type of buses nessecary to transport railway passengers.