Voting test/reasons

Ajsoprano

Mary Macaleese, Leo Varadkar, Hilary Clinton, our Irish entry to Eurovision this year, the Turkish transgender Eurovision person.

What have they all got in common.

Well let me expand on this.
They all garnered or will garner a huge support based on their gender or sexuality.


Now I’m not saying all they did is be a woman or be gay or transgender but it’s a huge part of their following.

Are the masses so silly that they vote for a gender?

I seen the Eurovision thread this morning and people were thinking that if Ireland can show their video(two men dating) in the live performance they could win but if they can’t the song has no hope. It was then I said ah here leave it out.

Surely in a time of equality gender shouldn’t come near it. Leo Varadkar and Mary Lou will gain huge votes in the next election solely on their gender. It will be made an issue the first elected gay or woman Taoiseach. Mad when you think of it.

Now I have no issue with anyone winning something on merit but who they sleep with or what they wear should have no bearing on the decision.

I understood the importance of the hozier video and it’s bravery at the time and I think it’s great we can have videos with two men or two women in them and movies where gay love stories can be made without using all the tired stereotypes where it’s poked fun of but should we be voting for country leaders or songwriting winners or reality tv winners or any competition winners solely based on their sex or gender?

I’m not some woman hater or homophobe if people who are reading this feel I am from this post I’d be the first fella on the building site to tell a bunch of lads they arnt being funny if they were slagging off gay people which to be honest doesn’t happen as much as it used to. 20 years ago having a gay family member would have been something you’d have to have kept quiet on a building site now that’s not an issue.

I’d say an openly gay lad may still get a fair bit of slagging if he turned up on site but I’ve never encountered anybody who was but the country is moving in the right direction and there is bit of society dredges that still arnt equal but should we be voting for the president of America based solely on their gender?

Are people being spoon fed party leaders who are gay knowing that people will vote for them regardless of anything else?

Your Face

These types of threads are sucking the life out of After Hours.

biko

Identity politics is the new black.

As an example - Feminist Initiative in Sweden are pushing old and seasoned politicians off the selection list to the Dail, and replacing them with new "racial" people that only got on the list because they are not white men/women.

I am all for it because I hope it will kill identity politics, or at lease expose it for the crap is really is.

Ajsoprano

Your Face wrote: »

These types of threads are sucking the life out of After Hours.

You should start a thread. I bet it’d be great but then you wouldn’t be able to throw in a quick reply to it. This would result in you not getting the number of thanks you require.

Oldtree

People vote for candidates for many different reasons. I'm not sure you can discount those reasons and put it down to spoon fed gender.

Personally I vote for competency, views and track record, regardless of gender and sometimes party.

Ficheall

Ajsoprano wrote: »

It will be made an issue the first elected gay or woman Taoiseach. Mad when you think of it.

You know Varadkar already is a gay Taoiseach, right? Perhaps they didn't make a big enough issue of it...

Ficheall

Oldtree wrote: »

Personally I vote for competency, views and track record

Must be difficult finding someone to vote for then...

DontThankMe

I'm not reading that wall of text but I disagree with you anyway based on the previous threads you've started.

Ajsoprano

biko wrote: »

Identity politics is the new black.

Now that you mention it Obama was the first black American president. Everything he did in power was perfect. He didn’t do anything wrong and anything that new fella does is solely down to Obama setting it up for him. Anything the new fella does wrong is solely his own doing though.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Mary Macaleese, Leo Varadkar, Hilary Clinton, our Irish entry to Eurovision this year, the Turkish transgender Eurovision person.

What have they all got in common.

Well let me expand on this.
They all garnered or will garner a huge support based on their gender or sexuality.


Now I’m not saying all they did is be a woman or be gay or transgender but it’s a huge part of their following.

....

Are people being spoon fed party leaders who are gay knowing that people will vote for them regardless of anything else?

No, just no.

Ajsoprano

Ficheall wrote: »

You know Varadkar already is a gay Taoiseach, right? Perhaps they didn't make a big enough issue of it...

Not elected

Ajsoprano

DontThankMe wrote: »

I'm not reading that wall of text but I disagree with you anyway based on the previous threads you've started.

Careful now this stopped clock might be right this time.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Not elected

We, the people, don't elect any Taoiseach.

biko

Johanna Sigurdardottir was probably the first openly gay prime minister.

pleas advice

What's this about a hozier video? Are we sending him to the Eurovision? Is he gay?

Oldtree

Ficheall wrote: »

Must be difficult finding someone to vote for then...

Not in mayo

Oldtree

Adalyn Great Bathtub wrote: »

We, the people, don't elect any Taoiseach.

Well we kinda do as we elect the party and we know who is the party leader when we vote, so we know who will then be the Taoiseach!

diomed

It is a process.
New niche candidates (sexuality, ethnicity) get elected by people who want to show they are PC.
Then in office those candidates are judged on their performance.
In time sexuality and ethnicity are no longer an issue, performance is the issue.

Ajsoprano

pleas advice wrote: »

What's this about a hozier video? Are we sending him to the Eurovision? Is he gay?

He brought out a video some years back with two openly gay lads kissing and getting chased around the place. For me it was the first time an established act made such a video that wasn’t stereotypical gay bar type topless dancing or gay men playing dress up. Very moving video.

Ajsoprano

diomed wrote: »

It is a process.
New niche candidates (sexuality, ethnicity) get elected by people who want to show they are PC.
Then in office those candidates are judged on their performance.
In time sexuality and ethnicity are no longer an issue, performance is the issue.

Obama’s performance was perfect according to a large number of people.

Herb Powell

If you think Varadkar got a lot of support because he's gay and this isn't a troll/shhitpost then you're a fuccking idiot

Ajsoprano

Herb Powell wrote: »

If you think Varadkar got a lot of support because he's gay and this isn't a troll/shhitpost then you're a fuccking idiot

Ah come on there’s no need for the name calling. It’s inevitable that people will vote for fg because of the chance of having the first elected gay Taoiseach.

dxhound2005

Oldtree wrote: »

Well we kinda do as we elect the party and we know who is the party leader when we vote, so we know who will then be the Taoiseach!

Kinda yes. But Varadker and Cowen became Taoiseach without being party leader at the time of the election.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Ah come on there’s no need for the name calling. It’s inevitable that people will vote for fg because of the chance of having the first elected gay Taoiseach.

Some people - some. Hardly significant.

Ajsoprano

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Kinda yes. But Varadker and Cowen became Taoiseach without being party leader at the time of the election.

But everyone knew Bertie or Enda would be placed as leader in the last elections.

AllForIt

Actually OP do seriously think that noone ever voted for a candidate in their district where they did not take into consideration that he was an upstanding married heterosexual family man who is also a catholic?

dxhound2005

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But everyone knew Bertie or Enda would be placed as leader in the last elections.

I didn't.

Ajsoprano

AllForIt wrote: »

Actually OP do seriously think that noone ever voted for a candidate in their district where they did not take into consideration that he was an upstanding married heterosexual family man who is also a catholic?

Exactly but we should be past all that by now. It shouldn’t come into it. It never should.

Ajsoprano

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I didn't.

Jaaaaaaaysis.

martingriff

Ajsoprano wrote: »

He brought out a video some years back with two openly gay lads kissing and getting chased around the place. For me it was the first time an established act made such a video that wasn’t stereotypical gay bar type topless dancing or gay men playing dress up. Very moving video.

Soñg was Take me to church. Great song

dxhound2005

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Jaaaaaaaysis.

If you think it is normal, then the following will happen. A whole lot of people will vote for FG at the next election, because Leo is Gay. But after the election, if FG are in government, Leo will be replaced with a heterosexual. And all the gays will be annoyed.

Oldtree

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Kinda yes. But Varadker and Cowen became Taoiseach without being party leader at the time of the election.

But leader of the party nonetheless

dxhound2005

Oldtree wrote: »

But leader of the party nonetheless

But not party leader when people were voting.

Ajsoprano

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If you think it is normal, then the following will happen. A whole lot of people will vote for FG at the next election, because Leo is Gay. But after the election, if FG are in government, Leo will be replaced with a heterosexual. And all the gays will be annoyed.

But fg will still be in power ramping up rent prices and propping up the hotel business with homeless people, smearing whistleblowers etc etc.

dxhound2005

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But fg will still be in power ramping up rent prices and propping up the hotel business with homeless people, smearing whistleblowers etc etc.

How do you know?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Ajsoprano wrote: »

But fg will still be in power ramping up rent prices and propping up the hotel business with homeless people, smearing whistleblowers etc etc.

Are you derailing your own thread?

Oldtree

dxhound2005 wrote: »

But not party leader when people were voting.

but people voted with the expectation of the party leader being Taoiseach, thus knowingly voting in subsequent party leaders. :P

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Oldtree wrote: »

but people voted with the expectation of the party leader being Taoiseach, thus knowingly voting in subsequent party leaders. :P

But not based on the gender of the, then unknown, future leader.

Oldtree

Adalyn Great Bathtub wrote: »

But not based on the gender of the, then unknown, future leader.

I'm not sure what the future gender has to do with your point? Do you mean you would not have voted for your chosen candidate if you knew their future leader could be an woman or gay?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Oldtree wrote: »

I'm not sure what the future gender has to do with your point? Do you mean you would not have voted for your chosen candidate if you knew their future leader could be an woman or gay?

Don't get me wrong. Gender has no bearing for me. I was posting in relation to the OP's assertion around the significance of gender in the voting decisions of the electorate,

dxhound2005

McDonald wasn't leader of SF at the last election. So people who do not want women party leaders, got a bad deal there as well.

Your Face

Ajsoprano wrote: »

You should start a thread. I bet it’d be great but then you wouldn’t be able to throw in a quick reply to it. This would result in you not getting the number of thanks you require.

I thanked your post there seeing as that seems to be a sore point with you.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Your Face wrote: »

I thanked your post there seeing as that seems to be a sore point with you.

Thanks to you too.

Your Face

Adalyn Great Bathtub wrote: »

Thanks to you too.

Thank you, everyone.

touts

I think factors like gender, sexuality, race, background etc can give depth to the ability of a candidate but they can also be used to give just the appearance of depth to the ability of a candidate. A female leader could be great (arguable Merkle) but likewise a female leader could be a disaster (clearly May). Same for a male leader, a gay leader, an old leader a young leader.

I think you have to look beyond these shallow labels to look at the achievements of a candidate. Leo for example has nothing in his ministerial record to indicate he would be anything more than a superficial leader. And so far his tenure as Taoiseach looks to be shaping up that way as issues like the North, Brexit, Homelessness, etc appear to be slipping away from him.

So it's easy to turn to inner biases and say oh he only got the job because he is young and gay. I think that's too simple. The age old internal politics of a party has more to do with it. Leo got the job because the only other candidate had an equally uninspiring ministerial record and ran a bad campaign. Cowen got the FF job because no one else wanted the hospital pass. Martin got the FF job after him because he was the last real candidate left after they were wiped out. Mary Lou has the SF job because there needs to be a decontamination period between Adams and SF being in government so others strategically stood aside. Howlin got the Labour job because Alan Kelly was not liked by the other Labour TDs and senators. May got the UK job because it is a worse hospital pass than the one poor Cowen got.

So no we don't have bad leaders because they are men or women or gay or straight or old or young. We have bad leaders because all the good leaders are earning more money in the private sector and couldn't be arsed getting into the petty dogfight that is democratic politics.